R + L = J v 69

[finger]

I'm going to need the difinitive rule book for the Kingsguard. :drool:

A little like the three laws from "I Robot." My Capricorn desire for structure, understanding and implementing policy is becoming severely damaged by this series. :P

I had the same issue with the quote function and had to switch my browser to Firefox.

In a nutshell, they obey blindly to the person in charge, nerver questioning his orders or deeds.

This one is normally a living person. They use to style him king.

When the king is too young to rule, there's a regent.

They don't normally obey dead people's commands. You won't see BS obeying Jaeherys orders, not even when Jaeherys' daughter was being raped.

I see some people reasoning that Rhaegar had ordered the 3 at ToJ to wait for him there. Since R was dead, he couldn't come back, so the poor 3 entered in a state of data overflow that prevented them to move forward. Fortunately, a Ned happened to arrive there and offered them the chance of a dramatic death to break the stalemate thing. This is getting crazy.

[Ygrain]

I'm going to need the difinitive rule book for the Kingsguard. :drool:

A little like the three laws from "I Robot." My Capricorn desire for structure, understanding and implementing policy is becoming severely damaged by this series. :P

Speaking about the three laws, it reminds me of the situation in one of the later books where a fourth law was formulated, superceding the previous three because the circumstances demanded it. Under normal conditions, the first law says a robot must not harm or allow harm to a human being. However, when a particular person poised a direct threat to humankind, the robot in question eliminated him, formulating a zero law under which robot must not harm or allow harm to humankind because the whole humankind apparently took priority over a single life.

- I'm basically arguing the KG being forced by circumstances into such a zero law - protecting the king by not being with him.

[The guy from the Vale]

Speaking about the three laws, it reminds me of the situation in one of the later books where a fourth law was formulated, superceding the previous three because the circumstances demanded it. Under normal conditions, the first law says a robot must not harm or allow harm to a human being. However, when a particular person poised a direct threat to humankind, the robot in question eliminated him, formulating a zero law under which robot must not harm or allow harm to humankind because the whole humankind apparently took priority over a single life.

- I'm basically arguing the KG being forced by circumstances into such a zero law - protecting the king by not being with him.

I just think that point is moot anyway, because as MtnLion said, Jon almost definitely was at the tower for myriad thematic and symbolic reasons. Speculating on what the KG might or might not have done is a moot point and, as far as I can see, weakens the reason as for why the KG were at the Tower unnecessarily. I admit I simply do not see the point at this time.

[Hoyti_Von_Totiy]

v69 of this topic .... :bowdown:

Maybe all of this R+L=J is given too much meaning to the overall story.

Lets look at the facts. We are now 5 books into the story with only 2 to go. Its kinda too late for this revelation to have an major impact on Jon as a person or his decision making.

He´s already a man grown (by westeros standards) and in a position or was in a position of great responsibility. Its not like he´s kid at the crossroads of his life when he gets the news...

Whats he going to do? Try and reclaim his grandfathers throne ..on what basis? The only witness of his parentage is a cranoogman who barely leaves his lands to venture out. He might as well have moonboy backing his claim. :lol:

Even if somehow his parentage is acepted how´s he to prove R married L? Mind you Faith Militant is back on and the High Septon power is rising, he would´t take kindly to a king whos parents married infront of a tree, while his father was already married to Elia in the light of the seven.

He turned down Winterfell because he would have to burn the hearttree and to claim the Iron Throne he would have to convert to the faith of the 7....

- Cant prove his parentage

- Cant prove him beeing trueborn

- He´s been stabbed atleast 4 times and surraunded by enemies.

- The north is backing Stannis (or Rickon)

- Theres this Others invarion thats pending for so long it has become anticlimactic as to the far more intresting struggle for power in KL.

So how the f. is all of this is going to be fit into 2 books knowing that RR Martin loves to have his POV-s describe what they are eating , the scenary when they are traveling and the state of their food supplies.

We need only to look at the preview chapters of WOW:

- We have Arianne spening atleast 2 fuc**g chapters traveling to Aegon and describing the scenary as she goes. :bang:

- Battle for Mereen is described by atleast 3 diffrent POV-s. Same fking battle for the city noone cares about from the eyes of 3 people .... :bang:

- Theon chapter only repeats what we already know. Karstark betrayal, fake Arya, Bravoosi banker and Stannis wanting to burn people. Nothing new really happens there. :thumbsdown:

If anything that relevation will only have a personal intimate meaning to Jon witch he will keep private with no impact of the greater storyline of the books. So big fuss for nothing.

To be honest the way the things turned out with RR Marting "gardner" style of writing he would have been better of just making Jon a bastard son of Ned and some wench.

[Fred of Ashai]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79332-theories-you-simply-dont-believe/page-2

The Ran theory starts at post 35.

[Alia of the knife]

Speaking about the three laws, it reminds me of the situation in one of the later books where a fourth law was formulated, superceding the previous three because the circumstances demanded it. Under normal conditions, the first law says a robot must not harm or allow harm to a human being. However, when a particular person poised a direct threat to humankind, the robot in question eliminated him, formulating a zero law under which robot must not harm or allow harm to humankind because the whole humankind apparently took priority over a single life.

- I'm basically arguing the KG being forced by circumstances into such a zero law - protecting the king by not being with him.

And that analogy makes sense to me.

What the KG are in function, in my perception, lie somewhere between Dumas and Asimov.

[Black Crow]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79332-theories-you-simply-dont-believe/page-2

The Ran theory starts at post 35.

Interesting, particularly considering the source. GRRM does very heavily accent the fact they were following orders and orders they didn't like. While its true they told Ned they had sworn a vow that's not a contradiction, after all a tradition marriage vow requires the wife to love, honour and obey, so I would expect given what GRRM said that the Kingsguard vow requires they to protect and obey. The three standing outside the Tower are therefore honouring their vow by obeying that order given them by Rhaegar.

[Alia of the knife]

I suppose my issue with the KG is that there really is no consistency, again, my perception.

They aren't supposed to play the GOT as Selmy laments doing in Danys absence, and yet we see in Dangerous Women, the LC of the KG, "Criston the Kingmaker" change and impact the succession laws in his urging of Aegon to take the throne.

We don't know yet the motives of Whent and Dayne. We haven't heard that Aerys recalled them from their duties of protecting Rhaegar after Rhaegar disappeared, so either Aerys is aware of more than we the readers know about Rhaegars activities,(which it doesn't appear so), or Dayne and Whent made a choice between Rhaegar and Aerys.

And again, if we follow Jaimies statement to the letter, and someone has to be in the physical vicinity of the king at all times, then that is incosistent as well if Jon is in the TOJ, because all three KG are outside the tower.

[Whatever]

Somebody needs to be with the King and that brings us back to the central contradiction that you can't use the presence of the Kingsgard at the Tower as proof that Jon is legitimate if Jon isn't there.

Amen to this. I get what you guys are saying, that any of the KG would be an obvious beacon 'here is the king', but seriously, how many people would recognize Arthur Dayne of Oswell Whent if they cut their hair and dressed down? As Sandor points out in ASOS, people see what they expect to see. IMO the risk in leaving the potential king go alone is much more great than that of being recognized on some backroad in Dorne (which was, BTW, pro-Targaryen - or at least no Anti. Not to mention Arthur Dayne being from Starfall...)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79332-theories-you-simply-dont-believe/page-2

The Ran theory starts at post 35.

Thank you!

And again, if we follow Jaimies statement to the letter, and someone has to be in the physical vicinity of the king at all times, then that is incosistent as well if Jon is in the TOJ, because all three KG are outside the tower.

Actually, is not. I'm picturing the tower as a fairly small building (as I think are we all) because otherwise Rhaegar there would have been some sort of staff there, a household, and so on, and it would have been hard to keep the secret. What the ToJ basically was, was a building. Not much bigger than the famous windmill in Season 3 of the show, IMO, but even if it was - still a building. And the KG was outside, guarding the door to said building - there was no way an intruder could get in with them guarding the door, how isn't this 'protection'?

I don't think the KG sleeps in the King's chamber in KL, but they guard the doors - same thing here.

[Dead Wolf]

Question. Weren't Dayne and Whent part of Rhaegar's plot to depose Aerys?

[Schmendrick]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79332-theories-you-simply-dont-believe/page-2

The Ran theory starts at post 35.

Thanks for digging that up! I've got my own suspicions about Jon being moved to Starfall (though I'm far from sure about it). I don't buy that the KG would have then stayed at the ToJ just based on Rhaegar's orders, though. If Jon was moved, there must be a more convincing reason for the KG to stay at the ToJ.

[Ygrain]

v69 of this topic .... :bowdown:

Maybe all of this R+L=J is given too much meaning to the overall story.

Lets look at the facts. We are now 5 books into the story with only 2 to go. Its kinda too late for this revelation to have an major impact on Jon as a person or his decision making.

He´s already a man grown (by westeros standards) and in a position or was in a position of great responsibility. Its not like he´s kid at the crossroads of his life when he gets the news...

Whats he going to do? Try and reclaim his grandfathers throne ..on what basis? The only witness of his parentage is a cranoogman who barely leaves his lands to venture out. He might as well have moonboy backing his claim. :lol:

Even if somehow his parentage is acepted how´s he to prove R married L? Mind you Faith Militant is back on and the High Septon power is rising, he would´t take kindly to a king whos parents married infront of a tree, while his father was already married to Elia in the light of the seven.

He turned down Winterfell because he would have to burn the hearttree and to claim the Iron Throne he would have to convert to the faith of the 7....

- Cant prove his parentage

- Cant prove him beeing trueborn

- He´s been stabbed atleast 4 times and surraunded by enemies.

- The north is backing Stannis (or Rickon)

- Theres this Others invarion thats pending for so long it has become anticlimactic as to the far more intresting struggle for power in KL.

So how the f. is all of this is going to be fit into 2 books knowing that RR Martin loves to have his POV-s describe what they are eating , the scenary when they are traveling and the state of their food supplies.

We need only to look at the preview chapters of WOW:

- We have Arianne spening atleast 2 fuc**g chapters traveling to Aegon and describing the scenary as she goes. :bang:

- Battle for Mereen is described by atleast 3 diffrent POV-s. Same fking battle for the city noone cares about from the eyes of 3 people .... :bang:

- Theon chapter only repeats what we already know. Karstark betrayal, fake Arya, Bravoosi banker and Stannis wanting to burn people. Nothing new really happens there. :thumbsdown:

If anything that relevation will only have a personal intimate meaning to Jon witch he will keep private with no impact of the greater storyline of the books. So big fuss for nothing.

To be honest the way the things turned out with RR Marting "gardner" style of writing he would have been better of just making Jon a bastard son of Ned and some wench.

The importance of Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, sworn to each other before weirwood, may be something entirely else than sitting an ugly iron chair.

We don't know yet the motives of Whent and Dayne. We haven't heard that Aerys recalled them from their duties of protecting Rhaegar after Rhaegar disappeared, so either Aerys is aware of more than we the readers know about Rhaegars activities,(which it doesn't appear so), or Dayne and Whent made a choice between Rhaegar and Aerys.

Or Aerys has no way to contact them directly, and hence cannot countermand whatever orders Rhaegar gave.

[Hoyti_Von_Totiy]

The importance of Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, sworn to each other before weirwood, may be something entirely else than sitting an ugly iron chair.

Mind you the novels are 99% about the game of thrones and that ugly chair.

When Mormont sais to Jon what does it matter who sits on the throne when dead walk in the night he sounds like a moron. Ofcourse it matters and the NW found that out when they sent 5 letters out seeking help and all they got was poor Stannis and his last 500 men while the entire power of the Reach, Dorne, Vale, Rock and even the north just dont give a f. about some phantom threat that takes 1% of the books.

[Whatever]

Question. Weren't Dayne and Whent part of Rhaegar's plot to depose Aerys?

The plot went nowhere. There were alliances between Great Houses before the rebellion, with the Harrenhall tourney as a meeting point (and the Whents organized it), but nothing came from there; and then there was Rhaegar deciding that 'things should change' - but IMO that was his opinion, and he wouldn't have brought the KS into it. They were friends, at least with Dayne and Whent, and it would have been cruel, putting them in that position.

[Whatever]

Mind you the novels are 99% about the game of thrones and that ugly chair.

When Mormont sais to Jon what does it matter who sits on the throne when dead walk in the night he sounds like a moron. Ofcourse it matters and the NW found that out when they sent 5 letters out seeking help and all they got was poor Stannis and his last 500 men while the entire power of the Reach, Dorne, Vale, Rock and even the north just dont give a f. about some phantom threat that takes 1% of the books.

It's called a deconstruction of the fantasy genre, y'know. People wasting their time arguing about the ugly chair while the real danger is elsewhere - that's what Mormont's quote is about.

[Schmendrick]

Mind you the novels are 99% about the game of thrones and that ugly chair.

Not really:

Dargon: Where did the series name a Song of Ice and originate? What do you think this title reflects most upon in the series?

George: I don’t really remember where. I knew the first book was a Game of Thrones but I needed an overall title as well. We had these other elements in the story, beyond the struggle for power at court -- the Others beyond the Wall, and the dragons. That suggests Ice and fire, but that’s not the only possible meaning. I like titles that can have many meanings. I think it makes the writing and the fiction richer.

Source.

Jon's parentage relates to the books' bigger picture themes -- Ice and Fire. That's true whether or not Jon ever actually sits the Iron Throne.

[JNR]

Interesting, particularly considering the source. GRRM does very heavily accent the fact they were following orders and orders they didn't like. While its true they told Ned they had sworn a vow that's not a contradiction, after all a tradition marriage vow requires the wife to love, honour and obey, so I would expect given what GRRM said that the Kingsguard vow requires they to protect and obey. The three standing outside the Tower are therefore honouring their vow by obeying that order given them by Rhaegar.

:agree: with both you and Ran on this one.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Really I would take anything at this point. I don't know any of his theories on the Starks, save for Jon. But they are plot driven and this may be world building and looks that way. But who knows. But it could be Starks have Targ blood. I mean that fits into world building but I don't know if it is a theory he follows. You can go check his page he probably only has 10-20 thousand threads he has posted under.

The Starks of old having Targaryen blood wouldn't have any added use, right? I mean, we're convinced of R+L=J, and seeing as how Rhaegar was a Targaryen, Jon would be as well (by blood if not by name). Having an ancestor 250 - 300 years back who married a Targaryen and continued his line, wouldn't add anything storywise, IMHO.

What I said lol No WoIaF material will get too close to the ToJ ;)

I doubt the information will be something spoilerish about Jon. Especially since there was a promise that we'd get confirmation about Jon's parentage in WoW (or I am misremembering completely O_o ). Didn't GRRM say that a specific theory would be confirmed (or not) in WoW? I thought this was about Jon...

Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Question. Weren't Dayne and Whent part of Rhaegar's plot to depose Aerys?

It was a plot, and we don't know if it's true. The thing is that the Tourney at Harrenhall was very suspicious, where the timing was involved. Whent and Dayne were two close friends of Rhaegar. Many great lords would be present (though not all, no Lannisters safe Jaime, no Tully's). The entire thing was suspicious, in hind sight. It was Varys who called it a conspiracy, which moved Aerys to join the tourney as a guest, which caused the plot, if it existed (and I truly believe it did), to be thrown away. The fact that Varys knew might have already been enough to stop Rhaegar from going through with his plotting. With Aerys present at Harrenhall it became even more dangerous.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Or Aerys has no way to contact them directly, and hence cannot countermand whatever orders Rhaegar gave.

I think this is exactly it. I might be entirely wrong, but I don't find the "orders" bit of all of this to be particularly confusing or contradictory in the slightest. I think people often make it far more complicated than it needs to be.

Here's a rough sketch of how I think it went down.

Whent and Dayne were Rhaegar's personal detail, "loaned" to him by Aerys. In that capacity, they would follow Rhaegar's orders until Aerys recalled them and/or gave them orders that superseded Rhaegar's. In that capacity, they were with Rhaegar when he "abducted" Lyanna (I think probably from Harrenhal, not immediately after the tournament but from Harrenhal nonetheless).

Whent and Dayne continue to be in Rhaegar's servce when he and Lyanna end up relocating to Dorne and going into hiding. Because Aerys does not know where the two men are, exactly, he can't recall them or give them superseding orders. But as the war goes on, he sends Hightower to get Rhaegar back.

Now this is where it gets critical. Is it a loophole, absolutely. Does it still work as a valid explanation, absolutely.

I think that Aerys's orders to Hightower were probably broad. "We need Rhaegar to lead the army, make sure he gets back here." Something to that effect. Hightower goes off and manages to track down Rhaegar. Rhaegar agrees to go back, but orders Hightower to stay at the Tower. That does not contradict Aerys's order. Hightower can fulfill his order — getting Rhaegar back — and also fulfill Rhaegar's order to stay at the Tower. Rhaegar goes back and dies, and Aerys still has no way to reach the three men at the Tower. He can't recall them even if he wanted to because he doesn't know where they are. And because Rhaegar gave them a valid order, one Aerys can't override, the men have to stay. They can't "pick and choose" the orders to follow in this instance; they might want to go back and fight, but they can't.

Fast forward. Rhaegar dies at the Trident and soon after, Aerys and Aegon die in the capital. The Kingsguard stay where they are, even though it turns out, from Ned's memory, that they were aware of what had happened. So why are they still there? You would think it could be Rhaegar's orders, but no. Rhaegar is dead, and Viserys, the new king supposedly, is on Dragonstone unprotected. The orders of the dead prince that were in force when he was alive are not valid now that there is a new king and Rhaegar is dead. I also think that if the men had learned about Rhaegar's death before they knew about Aerys's, one or more would have left the Tower to go to Aerys. However, I think they learned about all three deaths at the same time. Meaning, there was never anything they could have done for Aerys or Aegon.

But they're still at the Tower, knowing that Aegon, Aerys and Rhaegar are dead. They are the last loyal members of their Kingsguard. So why aren't they now en route to Viserys? Because Viserys isn't the king now.

The "orders" thing is a matter of timing (the men have to learn about the three deaths at the same time; if they learn about Rhaegar before the Sack, it doesn't work) and loophole exploitation (Rhaegar exploiting that loophole to keep Hightower in Dorne even when he went back), but it still makes perfect sense and more importantly it significantly cuts down on hand-wringing, contradictions and confusion.

[The guy from the Vale]

I think the theory in question is more about fAegon than Jon. GRRM said a mystery that's been around since ACoK would be resolved, but R+L=J is even older than that.