The guy from the Vale Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 And they could both keep Rhaegar's order to protect the tower and their duty to defend the king... if they split up. Which they didn't do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Which is why it would be good to know just how Hightower found them. He may have been the "contact," but was persuaded otherwise. Which is where my favourite blackmailing scenario comes in: "I will return to KL under the condition that the three of you remain here to guard Lyanna" :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 And they could both keep Rhaegar's order to protect the tower and their duty to defend the king... if they split up. Which they didn't do. This too. If Rhaegar had ordered them to stay at the Tower but Viserys was in their view the new king (and bear in mind that without a council or Hand or septon to declare, it fell to the men themselves to make that call), they could have had one person stay at the Tower and two go to Viserys, or two stay at the Tower and one go to Viserys, etc. The big flaming giant fucking clue that the king was at the Tower was that all three stayed, including 100% by-the-book Hightower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I don't think GRRM has anything in the story that he can't also prove or support in the story. So this "Jon can't prove it" stuff, I don't buy it. Just because you haven't thought of the proof doesn't mean GRRM hasn't. If the Rhaegar angle didn't matter at all and would have no role to play, GRRM could've just made Jon Ned's bastard and been done with it. Likewise, nothing much changes if he goes from being Ned's bastard to being Rhaegar's. Throw in all of the little clues and foreshadowing ("Bastards aren't allowed to strike princes" only makes sense as wordplay if Joffrey is a bastard and Jon is legitimate, and it's so obviously wordplay I shouldn't even have to explain it), it's pretty clear that he's not just a bastard. Well, I would find it very much GRRM-like if he couldn't prove it. If he goes from Ned's bastard to Rhaegar's a lot changes, IMHO. Suddenly he's a candidate for tPtwP. The likelihood he becomes a dragon rider grows exponentially. He's likely Dany's only surviving family (yea, I know your opinion of Daenerys, and I don't share it). I'm sure I could think of more. ... none of which really depends on whether he's legitimate or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Well, I would find it very much GRRM-like if he couldn't prove it. If he goes from Ned's bastard to Rhaegar's a lot changes, IMHO. Suddenly he's a candidate for tPtwP. The likelihood he becomes a dragon rider grows exponentially. He's likely Dany's only surviving family (yea, I know your opinion of Daenerys, and I don't share it). I'm sure I could think of more. ... none of which really depends on whether he's legitimate or not. Well nobody's perfect. It's not even so much that it "depends" on Jon being legitimate, so much as it is that so much in the books just so obviously points to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Well nobody's perfect. Which doesn't address my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 This too. If Rhaegar had ordered them to stay at the Tower but Viserys was in their view the new king (and bear in mind that without a council or Hand or septon to declare, it fell to the men themselves to make that call), they could have had one person stay at the Tower and two go to Viserys, or two stay at the Tower and one go to Viserys, etc. The big flaming giant fucking clue that the king was at the Tower was that all three stayed, including 100% by-the-book Hightower. Especially Hightower. Dayne and Whent were apparently Rhaegar's buddies but not him. The man who put the KG vow above anything. No way he would have left Viserys without a single KG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Which doesn't address my question. I'm sorry, I can't seem to find a question in there. If the question is whether I give a shit about Jon being a Targaryen in the context of him being the only family Dany might have left, the answer is an emphatic no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I'm sorry, I can't seem to find a question in there. Don't worry, I have sometimes problems with memory as well. Why the heck does it matter a microscopic bit if Jon's trueborn or bastard-born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred of Ashai Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 They still followed the order because at that point Jon was the king. It's two different things (Rhaegar's order, Jon being king) that yield the same outcome (Kingsguard at the Tower). I'd also say that this is a very unique situation and not at all like the one in TPatQ. For starters, the new king is a newborn. He has no Hand, no council, no advocates other than the Kingsguard. The goal is to keep him from getting killed, not to engineer a coup.If we assume that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and Jon was their legitimate son, that still does not make him king. At best he occupies the same position as Aerion Brightflame's son occupied when King Maekar died: he was the son of a dead prince and the grandson of a dead king. Viserys occupies a position similar to that of Prince Egg: younger son of the dead king. When Maekar died there was no king until a great council was convened to decide between the rival claimants. In the end, Prince Egg became Aegon IV.Hightower Dayne and Whent would have known this. They would also know that King's guards should not play the game of thrones, so they would not have taken it upon themselves to crown Jon. If they were guarding Jon it was because he was a potential claimant, not because he was the king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Don't worry, I have sometimes problems with memory as well. Why the heck does it matter a microscopic bit if Jon's trueborn or bastard-born. I'm sure we'll find out at some point. I'll even flip it around: If it doesn't matter, why are you so against the idea that Jon isn't a bastard at all? According to you it doesn't matter, so what's the harm in people using the word play and symbolism and the Tower of Joy to conclude that he's legitimate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Don't worry, I have sometimes problems with memory as well. Well, I would find it very much GRRM-like if he couldn't prove it. If he goes from Ned's bastard to Rhaegar's a lot changes, IMHO. Suddenly he's a candidate for tPtwP. The likelihood he becomes a dragon rider grows exponentially. He's likely Dany's only surviving family (yea, I know your opinion of Daenerys, and I don't share it). I'm sure I could think of more. ... none of which really depends on whether he's legitimate or not. Not pictured above: A question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Don't worry, I have sometimes problems with memory as well. Why the heck does it matter a microscopic bit if Jon's trueborn or bastard-born.Perhaps bastardy or legitimacy as such will not be the issue but saying words before weirwood might. Peculiar things, those weirwoods. I wonder very much... would Sam have been able to open the secret gate, had he said the words before the Seven instead of the old gods? If we assume that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and Jon was their legitimate son, that still does not make him king. At best he occupies the same position as Aerion Brightflame's son occupied when King Maekar died: he was the son of a dead prince and the grandson of a dead king. Viserys occupies a position similar to that of Prince Egg: younger son of the dead king.When Maekar died there was no king until a great council was convened to decide between the rival claimants. In the end, Prince Egg became Aegon IV.Hightower Dayne and Whent would have known this. They would also know that King's guards should not play the game of thrones, so they would not have taken it upon themselves to crown Jon. If they were guarding Jon it was because he was a potential claimant, not because he was the king.He doesn't. Egg was adult, capable to handle the realm the moment he was crowned, and that was why he was given the crown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Hightower Dayne and Whent would have known this. They would also know that King's guards should not play the game of thrones, so they would not have taken it upon themselves to crown Jon. If they were guarding Jon it was because he was a potential claimant, not because he was the king. Yeah it's not like Kingsguard have ever gotten themselves involved in the succession process. In any case, the examples you listed all occurred when 1. the primary claimants were either of mature age or had political advocates to speak for them, 2. the Targaryen power base was still largely secure and 3. there was an infrastructure place to determine who the next king would be. None of those things were in force at the time of the Tower of Joy. It also still doesn't explain why that other claimant -- even the claimant if you don't think Jon was legitimate -- is left on Dragonstone with no protection. The Kingsguard had to make the call themselves, and they settled on Jon, something they would not and could not have done if Jon did not have a legitimate claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Which is where my favourite blackmailing scenario comes in: "I will return to KL under the condition that the three of you remain here to guard Lyanna" :-)Exactly! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Not pictured above: A question. See my original question: What I'm saying is that who rules is important, after and before the war. It influenced the lives of hundred thousands of people in Westeros. I woudn't say it's not important just because the Others will put a stop to it for a while. Anyhow, to add something to the topic of this thread; why is it so important if Jon is a bastard or not? It's not like he could prove it either way and being a bastard wouldn't make him an inferior human being or anything. .......................................................................................... I'm sure we'll find out at some point. I'll even flip it around: If it doesn't matter, why are you so against the idea that Jon isn't a bastard at all? According to you it doesn't matter, so what's the harm in people using the word play and symbolism and the Tower of Joy to conclude that he's legitimate? In other words, so far it seems it's not important. I'm not against the idea at all. I like Jon, but I don't care whether his parents were married or not. I'm trying to understand why people are so keen to fight over it. Sometimes it seems to me that people think that it would make Lyanna less important if she was just Rhaegar's mistress or that Jon is just too good to be a bastard... Sort of like a fuss people would make if an ugly duckling didn't grow up to be a beautiful swan or something. Anyway, if you care for my opinion, it would be way cooler if Jon embraced his bastard identity (whether he's technically bastard or not) and showed the world that bastards can be awesome too, so that the next generation of boys (and some girls) would play on being the Great Bastard Jon Snow instead of the princeling Aemon the Dragonknight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 In other words, so far it seems it's not important. I'm not against the idea at all. I like Jon, but I don't care whether his parents were married or not.I'm trying to understand why people are so keen to fight over it. Sometimes it seems to me that people think that it would make Lyanna less important if she was just Rhaegar's mistress or that Jon is just too good to be a bastard... Sort of like a fuss people would make if an ugly duckling didn't grow up to be a beautiful swan or something. Operative wording in bold. If you don't care and you don't think it's worth arguing over, then don't argue over it? If I don't care about something, I tend not to waste time debating it. Regardless of preference, I think everything in the books points to Jon being legitimate, so that's the position I argue from. If it doesn't matter to you, fine. I'm sure you debate things I'd find pointless, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred of Ashai Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Yeah it's not like Kingsguard have ever gotten themselves involved in the succession process. In any case, the examples you listed all occurred when 1. the primary claimants were either of mature age or had political advocates to speak for them, 2. the Targaryen power base was still largely secure and 3. there was an infrastructure place to determine who the next king would be. None of those things were in force at the time of the Tower of Joy. It also still doesn't explain why that other claimant -- even the claimant if you don't think Jon was legitimate -- is left on Dragonstone with no protection. The Kingsguard had to make the call themselves, and they settled on Jon, something they would not and could not have done if Jon did not have a legitimate claim.There were three claimants: infant Jon (whether he was legitimate or not, since a bastard can inherit if all other claimants are dead), the boy Viserys, and Queen Rhaella, herself the daughter of a dead Targaryen King, and a woman of child-bearing age. None of the claimants were left undefended. Rhaella and Viserys were safe on Dragonstone with the Targaryen master of arms and the Targaryen fleet. Jon and Lyanna had three King's guards. I think it was fully consistent with their vows and their orders to guard Lyanna and Jon with the goal of moving them to Dragonstone at the first opportunity. At that point, with all three claimants together, the family and the remaining loyal lords could select the new monarch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Operative wording in bold. If you don't care and you don't think it's worth arguing over, then don't argue over it? If I don't care about something, I tend not to waste time debating it. Regardless of preference, I think everything in the books points to Jon being legitimate, so that's the position I argue from. If it doesn't matter to you, fine. I'm sure you debate things I'd find pointless, too. Eh, I wasn't asking if Jon is a bastard or not. What I was asking was why some people think it's important. Anyway, seems to me you just wish it was important. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Eh, I wasn't asking if Jon is a bastard or not. What I was asking was why some people think it's important. Anyway, seems to me you just wish it was important. ;) Because there is a mystery to solve :-) And because not getting married would be out of character for Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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