R + L = J v 69

[Alia of the knife]

Wow, it took quite some time to read all the posts that were placed here since yesterday evening :)

All of those bolded parts are spot on. Aerys was in a paranoid state, and he send Hightower away to find Rhaegar. I absolutely think that Aerys did not give the order "find Rhaegar and return with him" but more something along the line "Go and find my son and see that he returns to the city", expecting Hightower to come back with Rhaegar, but never ordering him to do so.

Once Rhaegar had returned and died, Aerys had indeed no way of knowing where the other three KG were - Rhaegar most likely wouldn't have told him, and he would have been the only person who could have known.

After learning of the deaths of Aerys, Aegon and Rhaegar, they remain. That itself is a major hint. They don't go to Viserys, but they remain behind, to guard whatever is in that tower.

How about this:

The three KG at ToJ were obeying the orders they had gotten, which became their number 1 duty until both the King, and the man who gave them the order was dead. That's when they found themselves in the presence of the new king (Jon), and they continued to remain at ToJ because they are now protecting their new king.

That's a very important detail, agreed.

Ned discovered Lyanna's location at ToJ at sometime between leaving KL and leaving Storm's End. Perhaps Hightower found out from the same person that Hightower found out from. By the time Hightower left KL to search for Rhaegar, the siege of Storm's End had already started. Those same people would still be present at Storms End when Ned arrived.

I think you take the meaning of what's under your spoilertag wrong. Otto Hightower remained to serve as Hand until a new King was proclaimed, as Viserys I had proclaimed him his Hand, yes. But Otto has to remain Hand until a new King is proclaimed, since only a King can name a Hand, and more importantly, unname him, and for that, you'll need a king. Which is why Otto remains Hand not matter what until there is a new king, who can then choose to keep Otto on as Hand, or name another.

For the reasons as to why the three KG remained at ToJ when they knew Rhaegar was dead, see above. And for further explanation, see below :)

Yes!!!!!!!!! :D

There was no reason to do that. Until Aerys gave the order for the three KG to return to the city, they were allowed to follow Rhaegar's order to remain at ToJ. When Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were all dead, Rhaegar's orders might no longer have been in power, but their duty to protect the king kicked in again, and their King was exactly where they were.

Had the news of Rhaegar's death reached them before the news of Aerys' death, it might have been a complete different situation. But in between the Trident and the Sack was only a fortnight, and complete armies were racing towards KL. Westeros at that point was in chaos, and it would have taken a while to get this information to an isolated location. It would first have to reach the people who knew about the location of the three KG.

Unless Viserys wasn't the King, which, if Jon is legit, was the case.

Actually, that makes him the first in line for the throne.

The fact that the position of Aerion's son matches Jon's and Egg's position matches Viserys' position, doesn't mean that Viserys would automatically be chosen over Jon. What was decided during one council, might not have been decided by another council, filled with other men, at another time in history.

Seeing Jon as their new king would not be crowning Jon themselves. They saw Jon as their new king. Nowhere are hints to a coronation given. They would have been guarding Jon because he was the legit king, coronation or no.

I doubt that Rhaella was ever considered a claimant. She was a woman, and besides, she had a living son by the former king, who became said kings heir, if Jon wasn't legit. Rhaella would not stand a chance to gain the throne for as long as Viserys lived. Even if she remained unaware of Jon's existence (which she did). Had she learned about Jon's existence (and his legality), she would have dropped another position. Jon as Rhaegar's legal son would be the first in line, followed by Viserys, followed by Daenerys, followed by Rhaella. Jon as Rhaegar's bastard would not be in any position to inherit unless a monarch legalized him, which no monarch would do because it would mean they would lose the throne, as making Jon legal would most likely put him in front of them in the line of succession.

It's true that Ned didn't truly know Rhaegar, but rumours surfacing about a man says a lot in Westeros. Since there were no rumours about Rhaegar visiting brothels, it becomes less likely (though not unlikely) that he ever did.

But indeed we don't know much about Rhaegar's character, we only know how other people felt about him. And that doesn't say everything. It only says something.

That right there. :D That's an extremely important detail in the whole "is Jon legit?" question in R+L=J.

These questes of you show that Hightower took his vows seriously. And I agree, what Hightower says is we swore a vow to guard the king. But the fact that Jon Darry says a similar thing to Jaime can be taken as another hint that Hightower would remain to guard the king. He swore to obey, after all.

Aegon was chosen over Aerion's son not only because Aerion was mad, but because it was a time of war (Maekar died fighting against a rebel lord). Naming an infant as your king would put the realm in the hands of the Regent and Hand. Crowning Aegon had the advantage that Aegon was an adult, with at least two children of his own (Jaehaerys II, Aegon's second son, was born in 223 AC, so he was 10 at the time of Aegon's coronation). But not only did Aegon already have heirs, he was an adult who was capable of making decisions on his own, and capable of leading a war.

The additional bonus was that Aegon and his children would have been old enough to determine if they were crazy, which they obviously weren't (or at least not at much as Aerion had been). Any taint Aerion might have passed on to his son, would disappear from the throne by crowning Aegon.

And again, exactly. Viserys didn't have any KG with him because he wasn't king. And thus, the KG weren't forced by their vows to protect him.

In Westeros (except for Dorne) a son comes before an uncle. But a daughter comes before an uncle as well. However, the inheritance for the throne goes a bit differently. Even if there are still daughters of a dead king left, the throne won't go to them, or their sons, but to the kings brothers, or nephews by said brothers, should he have those. Are all the direct males dead, only then will the throne stand a chance to go to the sons of daughters, or to those daughters themselves (in the case of there being no sons).

Also, Viserys wasn't under siege at Dragonstone. Stannis first had to build a fleet, in order to lay siege on Dragonstone.

This has come up many times before. Being the mother of a king does not automatically make you the regent of said king. I don't know where you've gotten that from.

Perhaps I said it a bit difficult. The plot to overtake Aerys disappeared after Aerys had come along to Harrenhall, and in the following year, Rhaegar appears to have not showed any desire to plot again (though I believe this was because Elia got pregnant again, and it would have been a risk for Rhaegar to start a coupe when his wife was pregnant with tPtwP). After Aegon's birth, Rhaegar was occupied with Lyanna, and either missed Aerys' crazy actions during the early stages of the war completely, or he ignored them, perhaps because it was more important to him to get Lyanna with child. Most likely it was a combination of the two, and he only learned the seriousness of the situation after Hightower filled him in on it.

Upon his return to KL, the plot came to his mind again, and this time he was determined to see it through after the end of the war.

So any idea which mystery was introduced in aCoK only?

My speculation is that Hightower got it from Rhaella, and Ned got it from Ashara.

[lojzelote]

Turn it the other way, you are looking at things through the wrong end. If Rhaegar had dishonored Lyanna Ned is not going to think of him in any positive light at all. He is not going to think of the two Kingsguard that helped Rhaegar with Lyanna (Whent and Dayne) as a shining example for all of the world, either.

I think you put too much weigth on that positive light. I mean, what if Ned heard from Jaime about his and Cersei's relationship and how he never wanted any other woman than Cersei... Then he could also think that Jaime Lannister likely didn't frequent brothels (because he was just too in love with his own sister the Queen). See, that a man didn't visit brothels is a good thing, but it doesn't mean that he never had sex outside marriage or that he always acted honorably in other ways.

[Ygrain]

I think you put too much weigth on that positive light. I mean, what if Ned heard from Jaime about his and Cersei's relationship and how he never wanted any other woman than Cersei... Then he could also think that Jaime Lannister likely didn't frequent brothels (because he was just too in love with his own sister the Queen). See, that a man didn't visit brothels is a good thing, but it doesn't mean that he never had sex outside marriage or that he always acted honorably in other ways.

The problem is, Ned doesn't know if Rhaegar frequented brothels or not - he makes an assessment that he didn't. Based on some other things that he knew of Rhaegar.Once again, he is thinking this about Rhaegar in the context of being terribly disillusioned with Robert for his whoring and fathering of bastards for whom he doesn't give a shit. How is Rhaegar behaving dishonourably towards Lyanna making any basis for drawing a comparison between Robert and Rhaegar, in favour of Rhaegar? He dishonoured my sister, fathered a bastard on her, but at least he didn't frequent brothels, so yay for him? What kind of logic is that?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

My speculation is that Hightower got it from Rhaella, and Ned got it from Ashara.

That would create two difficulties:

1) How would Rhaella know? And if she had known, why hadn't she done anything with the information in the first half of the war?

2) When would Ned have met Ashara? They met at Starfall, after Arthur's death. Ashara might very well have known the location of her brother, his fellow KG, and Lyanna. But she would have to have travelled into the Stormlands during the war in order to be there to tell Ned. Seeing as how she had just given birth to a still born girl, I doubt her last few months were filled with much travel.

[lojzelote]

The problem is, Ned doesn't know if Rhaegar frequented brothels or not - he makes an assessment that he didn't. Based on some other things that he knew of Rhaegar.Once again, he is thinking this about Rhaegar in the context of being terribly disillusioned with Robert for his whoring and fathering of bastards for whom he doesn't give a shit. How is Rhaegar behaving dishonourably towards Lyanna making any basis for drawing a comparison between Robert and Rhaegar, in favour of Rhaegar? He dishonoured my sister, fathered a bastard on her, but at least he didn't frequent brothels, so yay for him? What kind of logic is that?

If Ned knew that Rhaegar fiercely loved Lyanna or even than he only eloped with her because he believed that he will force a prophecy into being that way, then yes, I can very well see why Ned would think that that was something quite different than what Robert was doing with his one-night-stand lovers.

Anyway, honor is very important to Ned, but not that extent that he wouldn't be able to empathise with Rhaegar and Lyanna (if they were truly in love), even if their coupling was "dishonorable".

Love (and/or perhaps Rhaegar's misguided sense of duty to fullfil a prophecy) =/= lust -> difference

[Ygrain]

If Ned knew that Rhaegar fiercely loved Lyanna or even than he only eloped with her because he believed that he will force a prophecy into being that way, then yes, I can very well see why Ned would think that that was something quite different than what Robert was doing with his one-night-stand lovers.

Anyway, honor is very important to Ned, but not that extent that he wouldn't be able to empathise with Rhaegar and Lyanna (if they were truly in love), even if their coupling was "dishonorable".

Love (and/or perhaps Rhaegar's misguided sense of duty to fullfil a prophecy) =/= lust -> difference

Any textual proof that Ned knew of the prophecy or would have put any weight to it? The closest we know from Cat's PoV, he didn't beleive in omens.

[lojzelote]

Any textual proof that Ned knew of the prophecy or would have put any weight to it? The closest we know from Cat's PoV, he didn't beleive in omens.

Who knows what Lyanna told him? If she had enough time to tell him of her marriage to Rhaegar, she would also have time to tell him that Raegar meant for their child to be a third head of dragon and save the world.

It doesn't matter if Ned believed in such things or not; it matters what he believed Rhaegar's motivation had been. If Olenna Redwyne is anything to go by, people in Westeos believe that Targs are usually somewhat extravagant, so Ned could have believed that Rhaegar had acted on a prophecy. Sort of like a new Tragedy of Summerhall. A Targaryen tried to make a prophecy come true again. Whoops.

[Jory Cassel]

Name of whose is...?

How do you know it's the same? We've never seen a wildling marriage ceremony. If there is any. Maybe the wildlings don't do weddings and have only "common law" type of marriage, i.e. that woman lives with that man, so she's his wife, no ceremony needed. Also, that kidnapping and wife cutting her husband's throat on the wedding night seems to be more than some minor deviations. Their customs plain and simple differ.

Ygon Old-father.

If that were the case, Jon would not have to worry about a child fathered on Ygritte being a bastard.

[lojzelote]

Ygon Old-father.

If that were the case, Jon would not have to worry about a child fathered on Ygritte being a bastard.

Thanks, I don't remember that guy at all. Still, it doesn't change anything about the differences of people on different sides of the Wall. :)

Of course Jon worries; he's not a product of the wildling culture. He doesn't share their beliefs. For him a child born out of wedlock is a bastard. ETA: I meant to say that for him a couple that didn't go through a wedding ceremony aren't husband and wife, and therefore their children would be bastards.

[Fred of Ashai]

Are we 100% sure he could?

As far as we know, since Maegor the Cruel no Targaryen had more than one wife. It is very possible that Maegor's successor Jaehaerys the Conciliator had to make some concessions to the Faith to appease them; and since the Targaryens wouldn't give up the incest (the blood of the dragon and all), the next best thing was the polygamy custom.

”

It's debatable. Jorah believes (or wants to believe) that Daenerys can take two husbands. Jon Connington says unequivocally that Prince Aegon can't have two wives.

[Ygrain]

It's debatable. Jorah believes (or wants to believe) that Daenerys can take two husbands. Jon Connington says unequivocally that Prince Aegon can't have two wives.

Has it ever occured to you that the main reason why Aegon shouldn't attempt polygamy is that he is not in the position to afford anything even distantly controversial to any of his supporters, and above all, he cannot afford to alienate Dany by making her wife no. 2?

Who knows what Lyanna told him? If she had enough time to tell him of her marriage to Rhaegar, she would also have time to tell him that Raegar meant for their child to be a third head of dragon and save the world.

It doesn't matter if Ned believed in such things or not; it matters what he believed Rhaegar's motivation had been. If Olenna Redwyne is anything to go by, people in Westeos believe that Targs are usually somewhat extravagant, so Ned could have believed that Rhaegar had acted on a prophecy. Sort of like a new Tragedy of Summerhall. A Targaryen tried to make a prophecy come true again. Whoops.

So, let me summarize: not a single textual hint at Ned knowing of the prophecy, or believing any, but this hypothetical knowledge should make him absolve Rhaegar and think him a better man than Robert? Forgive me if I remain unconvinced.

Thanks, I don't remember that guy at all. Still, it doesn't change anything about the differences of people on different sides of the Wall. :)

People from both sides of the Wall are appalled at Craster's incest, and people from both sides of the Wall fail to comment onhis polygamy. Not so much of a difference in this respect.

[lojzelote]

Has it ever occured to you that the main reason why Aegon shouldn't attempt polygamy is that he is not in the position to afford anything even distantly controversial to any of his supporters, and above all, he cannot afford to alienate Dany by making her wife no. 2?

So, let me summarize: not a single textual hint at Ned knowing of the prophecy, or believing any, but this hypothetical knowledge should make him absolve Rhaegar and think him a better man than Robert? Forgive me if I remain unconvinced.

People from both sides of the Wall are appalled at Craster's incest, and people from both sides of the Wall fail to comment onhis polygamy. Not so much of a difference in this respect.

I wonder if that same thing has never occured Rhaegar about Lyanna, Elia and Dorne. :P

But Ned never thinks of Rhaegar as the better man. He thinks of him as a different man. Different =/= better. There's also Rhaegar and Lyanna's love. You never addressed that one.

Because the fact that he's marrying his own daughters is so appalling that the polygamy pales in comparison? Also, people from the Southern side of the Wall likely expect little and less of the wildling savages, but a guy raping his own daughters is likely way too much even if you have extremely low expectations.

If you want me to accept that the the people of the North do polygamy, give me an example from the kingdom of the North, please. If you don't have any, forgive me if I remain unconvinced as well. No offence.

[Ygrain]

I wonder if that same thing has never occured Rhaegar about Lyanna, Elia and Dorne. :P

But Ned never thinks of Rhaegar as the better man. He thinks of him as a different man. Different =/= better. There's also Rhaegar and Lyanna's love. You never addressed that one.

Because the fact that he's marrying his own daughters is so appalling that the polygamy pales in comparison? Also, people from the Southern side of the Wall likely expect little and less of the wildling savages, but a guy raping his own daughters is likely way too much even if you have extremely low expectations.

If you want me to accept that the the people of the North do polygamy, give me an example from the kingdom of the North, please. If you don't have any, forgive me if I remain unconvinced as well. No offence.

Rhaegar was an extremely popular prince of the dynasty firmly in charge of the kingdom after crushing the Defiance of Duskendale. Aegon is an untested, unproven boy of dubious origin. A totally valid parallel, indeed.

Ned mightily disapproves of Robert's behaviour, and thinks that Rhaegar wouldn't behave like that. I fail to perceive how in the light of the criticism of Robert, different =/= better. As for Lyanna loving Rhaegar, what about that? Is that supposed to give Rhaegar a free pass if he treated Lyanna dishonourably?

Funny that committing one atrocious act never gives anyone a pass for another - does Gregor get a free pass for rapes because of the murders?

[Jory Cassel]

Of course Jon worries; he's not a product of the wildling culture. He doesn't share their beliefs. For him a child born out of wedlock is a bastard. ETA: I meant to say that for him a couple that didn't go through a wedding ceremony aren't husband and wife, and therefore their children would be bastards.

He does, actually, he is an old gods follower as well. And this is besides the point, anyway, if they were validly married by wildling customs, the immense fear Jon experiences would be largely baseless.

I also don't understand why you would think that this touches on the subject of the validity of Lyanna's and Rhaegar's marriage.

Rhaegar's and Elia's marriage was one performed by a septon. Usually, when an old-gods follower and a believer in the seven marry, both procedures are performed (for instance in the cases of Robb-Jeyne or Eddard-Catelyn), but as Elia and Rhaegar were married according to customs of the seven, the matter of several marriages of one and the same person by old-gods procedure does not even come up.

There is nothing to suggest that an existing marriage by the customs of the faith invalidates or prevents one by old-gods manner; in fact, the double-procedure I spoke of above seems to have exactly that purpose, to breach this "loophole".

[lojzelote]

Rhaegar was an extremely popular prince of the dynasty firmly in charge of the kingdom after crushing the Defiance of Duskendale. Aegon is an untested, unproven boy of dubious origin. A totally valid parallel, indeed.

Ned mightily disapproves of Robert's behaviour, and thinks that Rhaegar wouldn't behave like that. I fail to perceive how in the light of the criticism of Robert, different =/= better. As for Lyanna loving Rhaegar, what about that? Is that supposed to give Rhaegar a free pass if he treated Lyanna dishonourably?

Funny that committing one atrocious act never gives anyone a pass for another - does Gregor get a free pass for rapes because of the murders?

Yeah, he's an extremely popular prince of a kingdom the ruler of which is a mad king who distrusts him and the great houses suddenly seem to try form an alliance for the first time since... forever (as far as we know). You might sympathise with Rhaegar (I do), but in such a safe position that he could suddenly disappear with Lyanna and secretly marry her as a second wife he was not.

Yes, Ned doesn't believe that Rhaegar went around and kept impregnating random girls. But he never thinks that he was a great and honorable guy. And yes, I do believe that Ned would forgive Rhaegar if he thought that he and Lyanna loved each other. How many times should I repeat it? I'm not Bart Simpson.

Seriously, I don't think that the difference between love and/or prophecy vs. lust is so hard to grasp.

Rape and murder are both atrocious crimes.

Have you ever heard of the trope Rape is a special kind of evil?

[lojzelote]

He does, actually, he is an old gods follower as well. And this is besides the point, anyway, if they were validly married by wildling customs, the immense fear Jon experiences would be largely baseless.

I also don't understand why you would think that this touches on the subject of the validity of Lyanna's and Rhaegar's marriage.

Rhaegar's and Elia's marriage was one performed by a septon. Usually, when an old-gods follower and a believer in the seven marry, both procedures are performed (for instance in the cases of Robb-Jeyne or Eddard-Catelyn), but as Elia and Rhaegar were married according to customs of the seven, the matter of several marriages of one and the same person by old-gods procedure does not even come up.

There is nothing to suggest that an existing marriage by the customs of the faith invalidates or prevents one by old-gods manner; in fact, the double-procedure I spoke of above seems to have exactly that purpose, to breach this "loophole".

They both keep the old gods, but their laws and customs are completely different.

Or, wait, wildlings have no laws whatsoever. Everybody can do what he wants when it comes down to it. That's not the case with the North.

Because it wouldn't concern Elia in any way that her husband has a second wife...

Seriously, either the marriage would be accepted by both faiths or by neither. Imagine if Aegon died: what now? The followers of the old gods accept Rhaegar's polygamous marriage to Lyanna and therefore their son can be the next King. OTOH, the followers of the Seven don't accept Rhaegar's polygamous marriage to Lyanna and therefore the next King is Viserys.

[Ygrain]

Yeah, he's an extremely popular prince of a kingdom the ruler of which is a mad king who distrusts him and the great houses suddenly seem to try form an alliance for the first time since... forever (as far as we know). You might sympathise with Rhaegar (I do), but in such a safe position that he could suddenly disappear with Lyanna and secretly marry her as a second wife he was not.

Yes, Ned doesn't believe that Rhaegar went around and kept impregnating random girls. But he never thinks that he was a great and honorable guy. And yes, I do believe that Ned would forgive Rhaegar if he thought that he and Lyanna loved each other. How many times should I repeat it? I'm not Bart Simpson.

Seriously, I don't think that the difference between love and/or prophecy vs. lust is so hard to grasp.

Rape and murder are both atrocious crimes.

Have you ever heard of the trope Rape is a special kind of evil?

If love absolves, why did Robb feel compelled to marry Jeyne, thus putting her honour above his? Deflowering a noble maiden outside marriage is a dishonourable act. Fullstop. Love or not, consent or not, that's the way it is perceived. Plus, it's not just a maiden but Ned's little sister. I can see him forgive, but never approve. And as for Rhaegar's honour, see that quote I analysed above.

[lojzelote]

If love absolves, why did Robb feel compelled to marry Jeyne, thus putting her honour above his? Deflowering a noble maiden outside marriage is a dishonourable act. Fullstop. Love or not, consent or not, that's the way it is perceived. Plus, it's not just a maiden but Ned's little sister. I can see him forgive, but never approve. And as for Rhaegar's honour, see that quote I analysed above.

Because Robb was a naive fool?

Ned had years to live it down. I also never said that he approved of what happened.

As for that quote, TBH I think you overanalyzed it.

[Ygrain]

Because Robb was a naive fool?

Ned had years to live it down. I also never said that he approved of what happened.

As for that quote, TBH I think you overanalyzed it.

Because Robb was raised in Ned's principles?

And what's your analysis? Why does the criticism of Rhaegar's honour evoke Lyanna's promise?

[Black Crow]

I'm not so sure that Ned was particularly exercised by Rhaegar's behaviour or his honour.

The impression that comes over is that he doesn't actually think about him very much. His memories concern Lyanna - and her wildness.

I'd say that from his perspective, his wayward sister Lyanna ran off with some-one who just happened to be Rhaegar. That's not to say he approved, probably quite the reverse but he doesn't regard her as a helpless innocent.