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Lysa or Catelyn


Tywin Manderly

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How? Why she was obligated to help them?

Of course she wasn't. Just because the entire conundrum started with her letter, she has no moral responsibility to help her family. Just because she lied to her sister and basically started the war, she didn't have to help her family.

And here we discuss the trifles like one woman's obligation to love her husband's bastard...

Apparently, no one is obliged to do anything. Now you can stop with demonizing Catelyn. Because, she wasn't obliged to do anything...

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Robb is her nephew. She is align with Starks because her sister is one. also, house Arryn was allies with the stark during the time.

House Arryn was also allies with the Seven Kingdoms and the current king.

House Stark was allies with House Baratheon/Lannister, as they betrothed Sansa to Joffrey and weren't they about to betroth Arya with Tommen?

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Robb is her nephew. She is align with Starks because her sister is one. also, house Arryn was allies with the stark during the time.

Any obligation she had to help them was gone the moment they decided they wanted to found an independent Kingdom without asking her what she wanted.

House Arryn is also sworn to the Iron Throne. Whether it's Joffrey or Stannis.

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Lysa and Cat should always look out for each other , by giving Robb soldiers, she is looking out for Cat. even the Lannister brother look out for each other.

Then maybe Cat should look out for Lysa by staying put at Winterfell.

Lysa did betray his sister by not giving Robb soldiers.

Granted it was LF Idea but still, Robb is her family

That's a common mistake. We're never told that LF told her to withhold troops.

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Of course she wasn't. Just because the entire conundrum started with her letter, she has no moral responsibility to help her family. Just because she lied to her sister and basically started the war, she didn't have to help her family.

And here we discuss the trifles like one woman's obligation to love her husband's bastard...

Apparently, no one is obliged to do anything. Now you can stop with demonizing Catelyn. Because, she wasn't obliged to do anything...

Especially if she tricked-manipulated her sister in acting like that she had no reason to help them. Why she should be a traiton and endanger her family for Cat's family? Robb was a rebel and a traitor that makes him dangerous. Who would put anyone over his/her child?

BTW Jon was never a threat to Cat's children, that was only in her mind, Robb on the other hand was a threat to Lysa's child.

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Especially if she tricked-manipulated her sister in acting like that she had no reason to help them. Why she should be a traiton and endanger her family for Cat's family? Robb was a rebel and a traitor that makes him dangerous. Who would put anyone over his/her child?

BTW Jon was never a threat to Cat's children, that was only in her mind, Robb on the other had was a threat to Lysa's child.

IDK, because Ned endangered his family to help her, even though she knew she sent him on a wild goose chase? Starks were put in danger because of the letter she sent.

Like Ramsay was never threat to Domeric, Black Walder to his Frey siblings, Robert's children to Cersei's or Blackfyres to Targaryens?

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IDK, because Ned endangered his family to help her, even though she knew she sent him on a wild goose chase? Starks were put in danger because of the letter she sent.

Like Ramsay was never threat to Domeric, Black Walder to his Frey siblings, Robert's children to Cersei's or Blackfyres to Targaryens?

Robert was King and he had decided. Furthermore, the letter said to stay away from the Lannisters.

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And now we can have a proper debate. And yes, I wanted that.



"Not enough. Never enough" OK, let we discuss that. the quote you offered had nothing to do with Catelyn, it had to do with the fact that Jon was raised as a bastard. Catelyn wasn't the one who made Jon bastard, Ned was. His entire self-consciousness as a bastard comes from that fact. He is seen as a bastard, not because of Catelyn, but because Ned presented him that way. He is the only bastard POV among main characters, and this quote among many others show how conscious he is of his status. His social status. To put that on Catelyn is completely unfair. Him being a bastard isn't her doing. And the quote is nothing more than his tragic self-awareness through bastard status.




For me this quote means that what ever he does it's never enough. He grew up thinking that whatever he does it's never good enough. Someone have to be grew up to think something like that, he has to be treated like he isn't good enough.




This is what Robb said to Jon after his visit. The quote itself shows nothing, except the well-established fact that Catelyn didn't like Jon and that most likely her children were aware of that/ And given how each of Cat's children deeply loved Jon, you could say that she never turned them against him. Simply, as GRRM said that the incident in Bran's room was a special event.




No one said that she turned her children against them but Robb's quote shows that Cat's behaviour towards Jon was always ugly and that is why he asks.




Regarding Jon's feelings about Catelyn counting how much he ate, we have no proof of that. It's an impression, based on icy stares and Cately keeping herself distant from Jon. And given the fact that Jon has no physical signs of being starved, given that he is healthy child, simply and objectively we have to take that with reservations. I am not saying that what Jon felt isn't real, but the objective truth might be something different. We simply can't say that Catelyn did count him every bite, or the fact that Jon's feelings are substantiated in something other than Cat's coldness towards him.



All and all, I think you should separate Jon's thoughts and emotional state that is consequence of him being raised as bastard and that which we can hold Catelyn accountable. Simply, Cat is not the only factor that made Jon being more self-aware of his position in society, for everybody in Winterfell were aware of his status.




As far as I know, someone's feelings is all that matters. If Jon felt that that's all that matter and what Jon felt is that he was always a pariah.




TBH, I have never read anything from anyone on this forum that would make me seriously reconsider my position about Catelyn abusing Jon. Given the fact that I have participated in numerous number of debates about this, all I have seen is ad nauseum repetition that she is "bitch" made by like 1000 alts of the same person. I called you not because of anyone else, and you know that, but because of your posts lacking any textual basis.




Same as you I have never saw anything that will make me reconsinder my opinion. Emotional abuse it's not like a medical condition, it's not physical abuse that has specific symptoms or signs, it's about how someone perceive some situations, it's subjective no one can put labels


(s)he was emotional abused (s)he wasn't. How Jon perceive what happens to him is more important than how Cat things that she has behaved.




IDK, because Ned endangered his family to help her, even though she knew she sent him on a wild goose chase? Starks were put in danger because of the letter she sent.





When he did that? When he accepted the Hand position? The point of manipulating someone is to fool him/her and she did. It's that simple. After all what she said was be aware and not trust them she didn't said avenge Jon or play detective. Why she should endanger her child for a stranger that happened to share DNA?




Like Ramsay was never threat to Domeric, Black Walder to his Frey siblings, Robert's children to Cersei's or Blackfyres to Targaryens?




Black Walder is trueborn. Jon has proved that he adores his siblings and if someone raised him with love that is what he would give back, only love and undying devotion. Something that Jon has proved to have for his siblings no matter what.


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For me this quote means that what ever he does it's never enough. He grew up thinking that whatever he does it's never good enough. Someone have to be grew up to think something like that, he has to be treated like he isn't good enough.

I am not denying what it means. But, those feelings are rooted in him growing as a bastard, he was raised that way. That is not Cat's fault, since she wasn't the one who made him bastard, or the one who decided how bastards are seen.

No one said that she turned her children against them but Robb's quote shows that Cat's behaviour towards Jon was always ugly and that is why he asks

Doesn't have to be. Robb saw that Jon was being hurt and he tried to do something for his brother. It shows that he is aware that something happened. because Jon's face was revealing, not that he expected something to have happened.

As far as I know, someone's feelings is all that matters. If Jon felt that that's all that matter and what Jon felt is that he was always a pariah.

So, if Cat feels like Jon is endangering her children, she is right? How could you say that he felt that he was always pariah when there is certain connection to his siblings, Ned and Winterfell? He considers WF home and from everything I have heard from him, there are so many beautiful moments there, it was place where he had family. I simply think you are exaggerating this, since Jon was being very much loved in WF.

Same as you I have never saw anything that will make me reconsinder my opinion. Emotional abuse it's not like a medical condition, it's not physical abuse that has specific symptoms or signs, it's about how someone perceive some situations, it's subjective no one can put labels

(s)he was emotional abused (s)he wasn't. How Jon perceive what happens to him is more important than how Cat things that she has behaved.

.

I guess it's just matter of opinion, because I recall like dozens of different occasions when you hid behind "It's my opinion" faced with great arguments. I recall you rejecting to engage into analyzing Jon's psyche, which would show us whether he is emotionally abused, to analyze his behavioral patterns and see whether there is something that would suggest the abuse. Even on this thread you were asked numerous times to explain your position, and the nonsense that "Lysa is better mother than Cat" undermined any possible argument that might have come from you about Jon and claims of abuse.

When he did that? When he accepted the Hand position? The point of manipulating someone is to fool him/her and she did. It's that simple. After all what she said was be aware and not trust them she didn't said avenge Jon or play detective. Why she should endanger her child for a stranger that happened to share DNA?

You should ask Jon why he endangered his life twice for people that happens to share his DNA. I know there are people who hates him for that, but I would never say you are one of them.

Black Walder is trueborn.

Ah, yes... My mistake.

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I am not denying what it means. But, those feelings are rooted in him growing as a bastard, he was raised that way. That is not Cat's fault, since she wasn't the one who made him bastard, or the one who decided how bastards are seen.

I kind of agree they are rooted from him but only because he was treated like that. If he had been raised in an environment that he would be accepted then he wouldn't felt like that.

Doesn't have to be. Robb saw that Jon was being hurt and he tried to do something for his brother. It shows that he is aware that something happened. because Jon's face was revealing, not that he expected something to have happened.

If that wasn't the case how Robb was sure that was something that involved Cat and not something that had happened at his was to meeting him?

So, if Cat feels like Jon is endangering her children, she is right? How could you say that he felt that he was always pariah when there is certain connection to his siblings, Ned and Winterfell? He considers WF home and from everything I have heard from him, there are so many beautiful moments there, it was place where he had family. I simply think you are exaggerating this, since Jon was being very much loved in WF.

Does Jon had done anything to her to make her to create this delusion? No. All that Jon has had is showing his unquestioned love for his siblings. Cat made him feeling like a pariah, like for example when she counted his bites.

I guess it's just matter of opinion, because I recall like dozens of different occasions when you hid behind "It's my opinion" faced with great arguments. I recall you rejecting to engage into analyzing Jon's psyche, which would show us whether he is emotionally abused, to analyze his behavioral patterns and see whether there is something that would suggest the abuse. Even on this thread you were asked numerous times to explain your position, and the nonsense that "Lysa is better mother than Cat" undermined any possible argument that might have come from you about Jon and claims of abuse.

Why Lysa is better than Cat? How about she didn't endangered her child with her actions? She stayed neutral when Cat participated to a war and endangered her children. How about allowing her children to fell in a trap like Cat did with her daughters even if she, and Ned of course, were sure that the Lannisters were the enemy? How about the fact that she didn't abandoned her toddler to play war? How about the fact that she protected her realm and made sure that they could survive the winter? etc.

You should ask Jon why he endangered his life twice for people that happens to share his DNA. I know there are people who hates him for that, but I would never say you are one of them.

Because he is that kind of person, he helps people no matter what he always try to do his best to help others even if that means that he will harm himself.From what we have seen Jon belongs to Westerosi minoriy that are willing to risk hiself to protect those who he loves. However, that doesn't mean that everyone else have to do the same. Lysa not helping Robb is her own choice, she had to do what she could in order to help her son not Cat's son.

Even if I hate Cat that doens't mean that I blame her for many things that have been mentioned around here. I do not believe that she was to blame for RW or the War, however I believe that she was wrong to move Tyrion at the Eyre she had no right to do that and with her actions she endangered the Vale.

PS: Black Walder is my fav Frey.

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I kind of agree they are rooted from him but only because he was treated like that. If he had been raised in an environment that he would be accepted then he wouldn't felt like that.

Other than Dorne, I don't see where exactly do you think he needed to be raised in order not to feel that way. He felt that way because he was a bastard who no matter how good he is, would never become a Lord. And that is something that is almost like a general rule in entire Seven Kingdoms. And the main reason why he joined NW. So, that is all about social stigma on bastardy.

If that wasn't the case how Robb was sure that was something that involved Cat and not something that had happened at his was to meeting him?

Because it is common sense. Robb saw Jon's face and knew something was wrong. Given that he came from Bran's room, it was normal to assume something happened there, and since he knew Cat was there, he assumed it was her. It certainly doesn't speak of some continued mistreatment of Jon.

Why Lysa is better than Cat? How about she didn't endangered her child with her actions? She stayed neutral when Cat participated to a war and endangered her children. How about allowing her children to fell in a trap like Cat did with her daughters even if she, and Ned of course, were sure that the Lannisters were the enemy? How about the fact that she didn't abandoned her toddler to play war? How about the fact that she protected her realm and made sure that they could survive the winter? etc.

She was, and anyone who say different either doesn't know first thing about motherhood or simply is deluding themselves with hatred. You can criticize Cat for some things, but saying that she, who raised 5 exceptional kids, is worse mother than Lysa, whose son was Joffrey 2.0 is simply nonsense. No, I need even a new word to describe what that claim is. Calling that nonsense is understatement of the century. And Cat played war? Because of these nonsensical claims, your arguments are so easily dismissed. Luckily for you, I like to dissect the entire post of people whom I talk to, not dismiss entire post because one nonsensical line. We see Cat's inner thoughts, we see how and why she does that, we see how her children never leaves her mind, how much love and tenderness there is in her for them. We see her pain for being separated from Bran and Rickon, her longing for Sansa and Arya, we see how troubled she is about Robb. Claiming that she is worse mother than Lysa is simply imagining things to accommodate obvious hate. That would be like Jon haters would say that Janos Slynt would be better Lord Commander of NW than Jon. Or that Walder Frey is more honorable than Ned Stark.

Because he is that kind of person, he helps people no matter what he always try to do his best to help others even if that means that he will harm himself.From what we have seen Jon belongs to Westerosi minoriy that are willing to risk hiself to protect those who he loves. However, that doesn't mean that everyone else have to do the same. Lysa not helping Robb is her own choice, she had to do what she could in order to help her son not Cat's son.

In my book, what Jon did is simply in line of who he is, and of course, shows how attached he is to WF and his family. According to that, we can conclude that he wasn't being abused there, just not loved by one person. Jon and Cat shares that, they are both ready to go to the extent to protect those they love. What Jon did for Arya in ADWD, isn't different from what Cat did with Jaime in ACOK.

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Other than Dorne, I don't see where exactly do you think he needed to be raised in order not to feel that way. He felt that way because he was a bastard who no matter how good he is, would never become a Lord. And that is something that is almost like a general rule in entire Seven Kingdoms. And the main reason why he joined NW. So, that is all about social stigma on bastardy.

I disagree. I believe that Jon joined NW because he was treated like a pariah and he thought that he had no other place to go that he had no other choice.

Because it is common sense. Robb saw Jon's face and knew something was wrong. Given that he came from Bran's room, it was normal to assume something happened there, and since he knew Cat was there, he assumed it was her. It certainly doesn't speak of some continued mistreatment of Jon.

If Cat's behaviour towards Jon was always good then Robb had no reason to think that it was Cat that caused Jon's reaction.

She was, and anyone who say different either doesn't know first thing about motherhood or simply is deluding themselves with hatred. You can criticize Cat for some things, but saying that she, who raised 5 exceptional kids, is worse mother than Lysa, whose son was Joffrey 2.0 is simply nonsense. No, I need even a new word to describe what that claim is. Calling that nonsense is understatement of the century. And Cat played war? Because of these nonsensical claims, your arguments are so easily dismissed. Luckily for you, I like to dissect the entire post of people whom I talk to, not dismiss entire post because one nonsensical line. We see Cat's inner thoughts, we see how and why she does that, we see how her children never leaves her mind, how much love and tenderness there is in her for them. We see her pain for being separated from Bran and Rickon, her longing for Sansa and Arya, we see how troubled she is about Robb. Claiming that she is worse mother than Lysa is simply imagining things to accommodate obvious hate. That would be like Jon haters would say that Janos Slynt would be better Lord Commander of NW than Jon. Or that Walder Frey is more honorable than Ned Stark.

My opinion that Cat is worse mother than Lysa is based on what I had written before; She left comatosed Bran and toddler Rickon to do what? Something that could be done by someone else.

Lysa didn't handle her child to the Lannisters especially since she believed that the Lannisters were the enemy, but this is also Ned's fault. Lysa didn't endangered her child by participating in a war.

In my book, what Jon did is simply in line of who he is, and of course, shows how attached he is to WF and his family. According to that, we can conclude that he wasn't being abused there, just not loved by one person. Jon and Cat shares that, they are both ready to go to the extent to protect those they love. What Jon did for Arya in ADWD, isn't different from what Cat did with Jaime in ACOK.

I never said that Jon was abused by everyone in WF just Cat, that said it's logical for him to love his father and siblings. If someone is abused in a house that doesn't mean that they don't love their family. What Cat did with Jaime was plain silly. She fred Jaime with no assurance that the Lannisters would fred their most important prisoners.

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I disagree. I believe that Jon joined NW because he was treated like a pariah and he thought that he had no other place to go that he had no other choice.

Well, I am sorry, but the text heavily disputes that. Jon'smidea of joining the NW came before Cat/Ned conversation, and it is mostly inspired that NW is blind to the origin of the brothers and Ned's fantasies about it that he transferred to Jon, and as we have seen Sansa too. So, no, Jon's decision to join NW had nothing to do with Cat.

If Cat's behaviour towards Jon was always good then Robb had no reason to think that it was Cat that caused Jon's reaction.

I am not saying it was good. This is one of many strawman discussions you like to have. There isn't only two options here - being always good and abusing child. There is entire area in between. Cat was never nice to Jon, but she certainly didn't abuse him, as author himself stated, and as Jon's psychological state confirms. He simply doesn't fit into a profile of emotionally abused child. And all those who has spent some time analyzing Jon's POVs agrees on that.

My opinion that Cat is worse mother than Lysa is based on what I had written before; She left comatosed Bran and toddler Rickon to do what? Something that could be done by someone else.

Lysa didn't handle her child to the Lannisters especially since she believed that the Lannisters were the enemy, but this is also Ned's fault. Lysa didn't endangered her child by participating in a war.

And why should we bother with the facts of how Cat's children grew up to be, and how Lysa's son turned out. That is something we don't care about, right? On one hand we have 5 generally nice and sane children, we have Robb who grew up to be quite decent man, Sansa who was kind and compassionate creature, Arya who was able to manage in extremely different situations. And on another we have Joffrey 2.0. Your idea of good motherhood is woman who raised SR? And Catelyn is being bad mother because she had to leave the child she fought and bled to protect. Your view on what makes a good mother not only is limited but completely messed-up. Lysa also didn't handle her child to Stannis, because she wanted for her son to be close to her. A good mother, something Lysa never was, would have understood how bad influence she is on child and how she is damaging child. If LF is not plotting SR's death, I would say that he is his truest friend for killing Lysa, and allowing that child to be raised by a sane person.

I never said that Jon was abused by everyone in WF just Cat, that said it's logical for him to love his father and siblings. If someone is abused in a house that doesn't mean that they don't love their family. What Cat did with Jaime was plain silly. She fred Jaime with no assurance that the Lannisters would fred their most important prisoners.

No, if someone is abused in certain home, they would have bad memories on the place. Jon, on the other hand, when reminiscences WF, it is always with love and affection. His recollections of his childhood can tell us that he was having happy childhood, only tainted by the fact that there was a difference between him and his siblings. A difference made not by Cat, but by society and Ned. And what Jon did when ran at the end of AGOT wasn't silly? What he did when he declared his march on WF to save Arya, that was pinnacle of intelligence? No, but acts of love and kindness are not necessarily smart and both Cat and Jon proved that.

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