Valonqar theory

[Lady Blizzardborn]

:agree: the Valonqar I believe is the person responsible for the death of Cersei's children. This is one reason I think LF is a good candidate

I think the Tyrells are going to take out Tommen without LF. And since they were in on poisoning Joffrey, I put forth Loras as a valonqar candidate. In my paperback copies he is listed after Margaery so I'm guessing he's supposed to be younger than she is.

ETA: there isn't anything that says the valonqar kills the children, just that they'll die. Personally I think Cersei is going to kill Myrcella.

[Marillon]

This would be one of those cases where the widely expected choice by the readers- Jaime would be a lot more interesting than a surprise choice- LF. I want it to be jaime, because the irony would be sweet. LF whilst being unexpected would be a boring and shit outcome imo

[Parizad]

It is not necessarily shitty if LF is the Valonqar. Imagine a time when Jamie is dead and Jon Snow is dead and Sansa is rising to power while Tyrion and Danny are united. In that case I think the LF-Cersei encounter is very interesting, specially since Cersei used to be over the top condescending toward LF.

[Consigliere]

Valonqar, as used by Maggy, may not directly translate to "litte brother" or any variation. Valonqar in High Valyrian translates to "little brother" in the Common Tongue. The problem is, Maggy may not have been speaking pure High Valyrian when she made that prophecy. This is what Tyrion notes in Dance:

ADwD, Tyrion I

“He had learned to read High Valyrian at his maester’s knee, though what they spoke in the Nine Free Cities … well, it was not so much a dialect as nine dialects on the way to becoming separate tongues.”

Therefore the meaning of valonqar would depend on Maggy's origins and the translation given to Cersei could be something completely different to what Maggy meant. I came across this passage on a re-read and think that this could possibly foreshadow Lady Stoneheart being the valonqar:

ACoK, Catelyn V:

“Every morning, when I wake, I remember that Ned is gone. I have no skill with swords, but that does not mean that I do not dream of riding to King’s Landing and wrapping my hands around Cersei Lannister’s white throat and squeezing until her face turns black.”

[Queenswood Sisterhood]

Maybe a bit crackpot, but hear me out. :-)

Tommen (the Valonqar) makes Cersei the Hand of the King (wraps the chain of hands around her neck) and thereby kills her (indirectly). The only trouble is Marcella being crowned as well. Hmm...

And also, there's the poison that is called Strangler.

I'm just trying to think out outside of the box, even though I obviusly haven't finished thinking. Somehow I don't think it'll be as easy as someone strangling her. There's also the issue of Jaime's hands. How can he wrap his hands around her neck? Otherwise a good candidate, I think.

[starkbucks]

I'm looking forward to an epic duel between The Mountain Robert Strong and his brother The Hound. The Hound wins and strangle Cersei, fulfilling the prophecy.

Arya killing Cersei by putting on the face of Tyrion will be pretty cool, but that probably means Tyrion will have to be dead.

[moseisley]

Jaime is the Valonqar, Cersei's remaining children will all die, as the prophecy said, and Jaime will choke her to death at some point, or maybe Tommen will kill her (he's also a little brother) he could use the Strangler.

[The Fourth Head]

Great thread!

I've never given much thought to who her valonquar would be, partly because I quickly lost interest in her hateful, deranged paranoid mental ramblings. I lazily thought it would either be Jamie, or her efforts to avoid it would get her killed by other means.

But I like the loophole that it's "the" valonquar and not "your" valonquar- that opens it up nicely to ambiguity, and makes any outcome less obvious.

Littlefinger seems a viable possibility. I also like the connection between "little brother" and "second son"- surely a second son is a little brother by definition?

I could see a scenario where Cecei flees the capital back to Casterly Rock due to Dany or Aegon attacking KL, (or the population uprising?) and Tyrion's Second Sons, promised all the Gold in Casterly Rock, trick their way into it like Lann the Clever and kill Cercei: thus killed by Second Sons or "Little Brothers"- headed by her own.

[Mithras]

I don't think so. Littlefinger will not live that long. There is a foreshadowing that Sansa will slay him.

[ache]

I just read this the other day -

“That is so very kind of you, Father ,” Cersei said with icy courtesy. “It is such a difficult choice you give me. Who would I sooner take to bed, the old squid or the crippled dog boy? I shall need a few days to consider. Do I have your leave to go?”

It's from when Tywin is discussing prospective new husbands with Cersei and she is referring to Balon Greyjoy and Willas Tyrell, but the descriptions also fit Theon and Sandor, which made me think of the prophecy since they're both little brothers.

[sotrain515]

Here's Maggy's valonqar prophecy as it is quoted at http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Maggy:

Cersei: Will the king and I have children?
Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

I think this points to Stannis for a number of reasons.

1.) The valonqar has to be male. Even if the word "valonqar" itself is gender-neutral, Maggy herself says that he "shall wrap his hands" around her neck.

2.) The valonqar is likely related to someone about whom Maggy is prophesizing. Cersei contextualizes her prophecy by asking "Will the king and I have children?" and Maggy's response concerns them both: "Six-and-ten for him, and three for you." I think this means the valonqar has to be either a little brother of Cersei or a little brother of Robert (the king in question).

3.) The valonqar is probably not Tyrion or Jaime. It's probably not Tyrion because that's who Cersei thinks it'll be (and characters within stories are rarely right when they try to interpret prophecies and Cersei has been shown to be unfairly prejudiced against Tyrion throughout the books) and it's probably not Jaime because he doesn't have two hands available to wrap around her throat.

4.) The valonqar therefore has to be a little brother of Robert. Robert only has one little brother left now that Renly is dead: Stannis.

5.) Stannis has motive to want to see Cersei dead. With her (and her children) out of the picture, the crown will pass to him by all the laws of the Seven Kingdoms, regardless of whether or not people believe that Joff, Tommen and Myrcella were bastards.

6.) Stannis has the capacity to murder his opponents from great distances using Melisandre's magic. His shadowy form has already cut his own brother's throat and pushed Ser Courtnay Penrose from the battlements of Storm's End. Strangling doesn't seem much of a stretch should he set his sights on the Queen Regent.

7.) Okay, this part's a little bit out there, but bear with me: My guess for why Maggy used the Valyrian word "valonqar" as opposed to just saying "little brother" is that valonqar has extra meaning attached to it. Specifically, I think it means "royal little brother" or "little brother who is the heir to the king." Throughout Robert's entire reign he never actually had any legitimate children, therefore Stannis was technically always his heir.

[Parizad]

Here's Maggy's valonqar prophecy as it is quoted at http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Maggy:

I think this points to Stannis for a number of reasons.

1.) The valonqar has to be male. Even if the word "valonqar" itself is gender-neutral, Maggy herself says that he "shall wrap his hands" around her neck.

2.) The valonqar is likely related to someone about whom Maggy is prophesizing. Cersei contextualizes her prophecy by asking "Will the king and I have children?" and Maggy's response concerns them both: "Six-and-ten for him, and three for you." I think this means the valonqar has to be either a little brother of Cersei or a little brother of Robert (the king in question).

3.) The valonqar is probably not Tyrion or Jaime. It's probably not Tyrion because that's who Cersei thinks it'll be (and characters within stories are rarely right when they try to interpret prophecies and Cersei has been shown to be unfairly prejudiced against Tyrion throughout the books) and it's probably not Jaime because he doesn't have two hands available to wrap around her throat.

4.) The valonqar therefore has to be a little brother of Robert. Robert only has one little brother left now that Renly is dead: Stannis.

5.) Stannis has motive to want to see Cersei dead. With her (and her children) out of the picture, the crown will pass to him by all the laws of the Seven Kingdoms, regardless of whether or not people believe that Joff, Tommen and Myrcella were bastards.

6.) Stannis has the capacity to murder his opponents from great distances using Melisandre's magic. His shadowy form has already cut his own brother's throat and pushed Ser Courtnay Penrose from the battlements of Storm's End. Strangling doesn't seem much of a stretch should he set his sights on the Queen Regent.

7.) Okay, this part's a little bit out there, but bear with me: My guess for why Maggy used the Valyrian word "valonqar" as opposed to just saying "little brother" is that valonqar has extra meaning attached to it. Specifically, I think it means "royal little brother" or "little brother who is the heir to the king." Throughout Robert's entire reign he never actually had any legitimate children, therefore Stannis was technically always his heir.

You make a good case for Stannis but I think the parts of prophecy about the younger queen, then deaths of her children and cersei's death are related. So far Stannis does not provide any of these while LF has conspired to kill Joeffry, has Sansa and will kill Cersei and all her children who stand between him and the IT.

[Parizad]

Great thread!

I've never given much thought to who her valonquar would be, partly because I quickly lost interest in her hateful, deranged paranoid mental ramblings. I lazily thought it would either be Jamie, or her efforts to avoid it would get her killed by other means.

But I like the loophole that it's "the" valonquar and not "your" valonquar- that opens it up nicely to ambiguity, and makes any outcome less obvious.

Littlefinger seems a viable possibility. I also like the connection between "little brother" and "second son"- surely a second son is a little brother by definition?

I could see a scenario where Cecei flees the capital back to Casterly Rock due to Dany or Aegon attacking KL, (or the population uprising?) and Tyrion's Second Sons, promised all the Gold in Casterly Rock, trick their way into it like Lann the Clever and kill Cercei: thus killed by Second Sons or "Little Brothers"- headed by her own.

I like your second sons idea a lot! However the "wraps his hands about your neck" part does not add up

[Parizad]

Jaime is the Valonqar, Cersei's remaining children will all die, as the prophecy said, and Jaime will choke her to death at some point, or maybe Tommen will kill her (he's also a little brother) he could use the Strangler.

According to the prophecy all Cersei's children die before her, so Tommen cannot kill her.

[Parizad]

Maybe a bit crackpot, but hear me out. :-)

Tommen (the Valonqar) makes Cersei the Hand of the King (wraps the chain of hands around her neck) and thereby kills her (indirectly). The only trouble is Marcella being crowned as well. Hmm...

And also, there's the poison that is called Strangler.

I'm just trying to think out outside of the box, even though I obviusly haven't finished thinking. Somehow I don't think it'll be as easy as someone strangling her. There's also the issue of Jaime's hands. How can he wrap his hands around her neck? Otherwise a good candidate, I think.

According to the prophecy all Cersei's children die before her, and Cersei really likes it to be Hand and queen reagent at the same time, I don't see why she would drown in her own tears then!

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I don't see Arya and Sansa getting any closer. Sansa's faith is very much tied to that of Little Finger now and we all know where he would take her if he could. I don't see Arya coming out of the free cities anytime soon, but I think she would go and find Jon at some point. I really think the both of them have a real role to play because whoever Jon's parents are, he is clearly a Stark. Him and Arya are the only Starks left whose direwolves still live , and the wolves might mean their "Starkness" which is their valor and righteousness which may well get them killed.

Not disagreeing with the idea but Bran & Rickon are both still alive & well & so are their wolves...

[Parizad]

Not disagreeing with the idea but Bran & Rickon are both still alive & well & so are their wolves...

Yeah I had forgotten Rickon when I wrote that but I don't think Bran is going to take any active part in KL now, nor does his wolf

[Sun]

If Loras survives his wounds, I think he'll end up killing Cersie for whatever horrible thing Cersie will have inflicted on Queen Marge.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Maggie did not say "your Valonqar" to Cersei so it may be a little brother not her little brother.

This is why I think that the Volonqar is Stannis.

THE Volonqar would mean not only some one who is a little brother there must be a reason that Little Brother is important, a reason why Maggie uses it as a way to describer her killer.

Stannis is Robert's younger brother and the is the rightful King because he is the younger brother.

[Gneisenau]

Why do people think Tommen and Myrcella have to die before Cersei gets strangled ? Just because the author puts two sentences together does not imply one causes another.