King Jaime Lannister Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 I'm sorry, I apologize in advance because I understand how silly and girlish my answer is.But, SERIOUSLY, the very first thing I thought while reading the title - why marry Oberyn - was: who the hell WOULDN'T want to? Just saying.Imagine how wild a Oberyn Cersei child would be? It would be great. HBO could do an after hours soft porn mini-series too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosimaistheHottest Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 It is really just incredible writing and use of irony by GRRM. We obviously already knew that this point that Rhaegar married Elia. When we find out that Tywin could have potentially blocked this by marrying Jaime to Elia, it is such sweet irony. Imagine the look of Tywin's face when he gets the double disappointment of not only losing the chance of Cersei marrying Rhaegar, but that the crown prince's bride was only available because Tywin didn't want Jaime to marry her. It adds so much fuel to Lannister / Martell hatred. After finding this out I had a much better understanding of why Tywin released his dogs of Elia and her children. There is alot of irony around when you think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor227 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Eh, the Jaime and Ellia match was arguable poorly conceived. Ellia was just plain poor material for a medieval wife. Not saying anything against her personality, but job one for any noble house is heirs, and Ellia was not built for birthing at all. Rhaenys had her in bed for half a year, and Aegon near-killed her, and that was -it- for her. Her political value is nill as well. Dorne is far away, and her family is far from a forgiving one. If she -did- die giving birth, I wouldn't want Oberyn showing up someday with a mind to speed up the inheritances of any children. Jaime and Lysa, pre-crazy, would have been ideal. With Catelyn and Brandon, he would be connecting to the Tullys, and then the Starks through the Tullys, and through the Starks to the Baratheons and Arryns. Obviously a lot of those ties would disappear after a generation, but it's not a bad catch at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Jaime and Lysa, pre-crazy, would have been ideal. With Catelyn and Brandon, he would be connecting to the Tullys, and then the Starks through the Tullys, and through the Starks to the Baratheons and Arryns. Obviously a lot of those ties would disappear after a generation, but it's not a bad catch at all. I agree that Lysa and Jaime made a decent amount of sense and that it would have been smart of Tywin to build that link. Through marriage and fostering, you have Lannister-Tully-Stark-Baratheon-Arryn, assuming all the other marriages go off. That's nigh unbeatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosimaistheHottest Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Eh, the Jaime and Ellia match was arguable poorly conceived. Ellia was just plain poor material for a medieval wife. Not saying anything against her personality, but job one for any noble house is heirs, and Ellia was not built for birthing at all. Rhaenys had her in bed for half a year, and Aegon near-killed her, and that was -it- for her. Her political value is nill as well. Dorne is far away, and her family is far from a forgiving one. If she -did- die giving birth, I wouldn't want Oberyn showing up someday with a mind to speed up the inheritances of any children. Jaime and Lysa, pre-crazy, would have been ideal. With Catelyn and Brandon, he would be connecting to the Tullys, and then the Starks through the Tullys, and through the Starks to the Baratheons and Arryns. Obviously a lot of those ties would disappear after a generation, but it's not a bad catch at all. IDK. At least she managed to get through two births alive with no known miscarriages, can't say the same thing for other women who are supposed to be strong. Hint: Lyanna. Ok that was mean, she might of died from a puerperal fever and if she hadn't been stressed and was well taken care of she could have survived. Truthfully, childbirth can fail the strongest of women. As along as the child survives, that was all that was needed for some medieval men. 3 weeks later some were married again. What is with the political value? She has the same amount of political value as the other daughters of Great Houses including Cat Tully, Lysa Tully, and Lyanna Stark. North is also far away. Her family isn't forgiving because she was brutally raped and murdered along with her children. I don't know many families even in modern times where they don't have their House's reputation and people to think about that are that forgiving. Cersei's Queenship was built on the blood of Elia and her children. Why would Oberyn try to speed up anyone's inheritance? Where do you get that from? What does that solve? Not a thing especially since the regent would probably be the man's family and not Elia's so it does nothing for him. We have never gotten that Oberyn goes around killing people all willy-nilly. His sister didn't die in childbirth. She was brutally raped and murdered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Abominable SnowOther Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 quite frankly, never put much thought on the matter until now. I'm inclined to agree with the masses and say that Tywin would never marry his daughter off to a second son, certainly not one from Dorne(IMO Dorne, much like the North, is viewed in a rather poor manner) The most powerful man in Westeros would want something much bettter and NO... being a "Princess" wouldn't cut. That Title would be in name only for the Dornish are subject of the iT and Tywin is certainly aware of that. in Joanna's case, well... i believe she never really considered a marriage conract for Cersei's hand for all the same reasons Twyin did. She is still Lannister Jaime and Elia probably would have gone down if not for Joanna's passing for its a good match plus Jaime would be a prince on top of inheriting The Rock one day, and hey!!! who knows maybe from then onward the Lannisters start styling themselves as "princes" and "princess'". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor227 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 IDK. At least she managed to get through two births alive with no known miscarriages, can't say the same thing for other women who are supposed to be strong. Hint: Lyanna. Ok that was mean, she might of died from a puerperal fever and if she hadn't been stressed and was well taken care of she could have survived. Truthfully, childbirth can fail the strongest of women. As along as the child survives, that was all that was needed for some medieval men. 3 weeks later some were married again. What is with the political value? She has the same amount of political value as the other daughters of Great Houses including Cat Tully, Lysa Tully, and Lyanna Stark. North is also far away. Her family isn't forgiving because she was brutally raped and murdered along with her children. I don't know many families even in modern times where they don't have their House's reputation and people to think about that are that forgiving. Cersei's Queenship was built on the blood of Elia and her children. Why would Oberyn try to speed up anyone's inheritance? Where do you get that from? What does that solve? Not a thing especially since the regent would probably be the man's family and not Elia's so it does nothing for him. We have never gotten that Oberyn goes around killing people all willy-nilly. His sister didn't die in childbirth. She was brutally raped and murdered. Oberyn's entire reputation in life is built starting from an incident where he supposedly poisoned the second-highest lord in Dorne over a terribly, ridiculously, minor duel. Doran gave his oldest son to the Yronwoods in reparation, and all-but exiled Oberyn for it. I'm not going by facts, I'm going by reputations. Ellia was known to be frail and sickly, and Oberyn was known to be a dangerous hothead, with a high lord under his murder-belt already. That she managed two healthy births, considering the effects it had on her, is pretty amazing, and not something expected, though being limited to such is constricting in and of itself. Not much room for an 'heir and spare' if you get a daughter in the mix. And an alliance with the Riverlands is far better than an alliance with Dorne. One borders the Westerlands, the other is separated by mountains, and the entirety of the Reach. Becoming part of the Stark/Tully/Arryn/Baratheon power-axis is another huge benefit as well. Even if the rebellion that proved the power of those houses hadn't occurred yet, I can't see it -not- making waves when they started betrothing and fostering all over the place. Tywin's best field is ruling and politics. Ellia offers a sickly wife with an impotent alliance. Lysa represents an 'in' with the greatest political force outside of the Crown, and an alliance with a populous, wealthy neighboring region that's always grateful to have a secure border, and is in a good position to reciprocate should any trouble occur. I'd have turned down Ellia too. Of course, it's the way Tywin did it. I doubt he put a lot of thought into the pros and cons, and let grief draw him into the insult instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PancakeMountainThatRides Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Oberyn's entire reputation in life is built starting from an incident where he supposedly poisoned the second-highest lord in Dorne over a terribly, ridiculously, minor duel. Doran gave his oldest son to the Yronwoods in reparation, and all-but exiled Oberyn for it. I'm not going by facts, I'm going by reputations. Ellia was known to be frail and sickly, and Oberyn was known to be a dangerous hothead, with a high lord under his murder-belt already. That she managed two healthy births, considering the effects it had on her, is pretty amazing, and not something expected, though being limited to such is constricting in and of itself. Not much room for an 'heir and spare' if you get a daughter in the mix. -snip-Oberyn's duel with Yronwood wasn't until after they met with Tywin. Not that I disagree he wasn't a great match for Cersei, just that him being super dangerous wouldn't be an argument against him as he wasn't "the Red Viper" yet. As far as Elia's health goes, I don't think it's fair to judge her on something that happened after she married Rhaegar. How would anyone know she would have problems with childbirth? Not that it mattered as she produced two healthy kids. Let's face it, she had a better track record than Lysa, if we're holding future births against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeRhaegar Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Elia wasn't very healthy but she was fertile and able to have children and a daughter of Dorne. I used to think it also has to do with her being older than Jaime. But then Tywin wanted Cersei to marry Viserys then Willas who both are younger than her. With the Willas one, she already had three kids and lacks her youthfulness and Tywin actually expects her to have more kids and the Tyrells to be grateful. It could be Tywins hypocrisy and thoughts on the lannisters being better. With the no from the tyrells, he still looks at another Great House the Martells for Cerseis match. So even wiith a 30 something mother of three, he feels he can get the best possible mates because he and she is a Lannister. good point, but i guess it really has to do with his hypocrisy and grief then, or since we have the foresight to know what you happen we question it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosimaistheHottest Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 good point, but i guess it really has to do with his hypocrisy and grief then, or since we have the foresight to know what you happen we question it. Totally. I mean this is a book series and everything was created for the plot and to get to where we are now. It's like if everything happened the same way with the kidnapping and war and Rhaegar wasn't married to Elia, but to someone else. Elia was still alive during this timeline with a few children like Cersei even though she was sickly at the time. Some people would be like he should have just married her. I have always been fascinated with the butterfly effect. So it's like in this timeline, Elia was married and only gave him two children. But in another timeline, Elia could have been married to Baelor or Jaime and given them multiple heirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeRhaegar Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Totally. I mean this is a book series and everything was created for the plot and to get to where we are now. It's like if everything happened the same way with the kidnapping and war and Rhaegar wasn't married to Elia, but to someone else. Elia was still alive during this timeline with a few children like Cersei even though she was sickly at the time. Some people would be like he should have just married her. I have always been fascinated with the butterfly effect. So it's like in this timeline, Elia was married and only gave him two children. But in another timeline, Elia could have been married to Baelor or Jaime and given them multiple heirs. Parallel universe time i love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I always assumed that Oberyn didn't go to the Citadel until later as a young man after the Cersei and Oberyn rejection. I just don't see the Princess of Dorne allowing him to go to the Citadel like that when she wanted to make a grand marriage for him. He would have needed her permission at the time. I can see it as one of his many dalliances as a young nobleman. I also think with the Obara conception. It could easily be Oberyn sneaking off to Oldtown or him just passing through. I found something interesting in one of the RPG background informations: It was said Oberyn fought with a poisoned blade that day, hence the moniker the Red Viper. After, Oberyn left Dorne to explore the Free Cities. There he dabbled in the dark arts, learning the secrets of poisoning and far more, only to return to the Seven Kingdoms to study at the Citadel. He stayed there long enough to forge six links of a maester’s chain, and then he moved on again. He fought in the Disputed Lands, rode with a mercenary company for a time, and had many exploits of love, battles, wars, and more. This is a semi-canon source, though. Should the books ever contradict this information, the books are right and the RPG is wrong. This source is from 2010. With Obara born in 281/282 AC, it seems to be just as you said. Oberyn fathered her when simply visiting Oldtown, and went to the Citadel only after he returned from his temporary exile. Extraordinary clever students can forge 6 links in 2 years time, so after that, it seems that Oberyn returned to Essos to fight in the Disputed Lands. I'll see how this can be incorporated in the timelines, and I'll get back tot his. I received this RPG only last week, so this hadn't caught my eye yet until now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysodope Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 The book states that Jamie and cersi mother and Oberyn and Jamie mother were close friends and it was something they decided on. However Jamie mother died as did that dream lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkdude103 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 At the time though I think She just found out about the twincest between Cercei and Jaime so I think Joanna was trying to get them as far away from each other as possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainTheo Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 The timeline agrees with the books, but I always found it more than a little bizarre that Oberyn's oldest kid was conceived when he was only 13! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon stark I Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Match was made by Joanna and if she lived it would probably happen.Joanna was aware of the danger of an upcoming twincest sadly Tywin never knew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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