What next? Enough with grimdark!

[Green Gogol]

I was busy scoffing at Free Northman, and then I understood: Joe Abercrombie sells because the American dream is dead. Though he's been getting softer lately, if he does not pull himself together, he won't be destroying any nuclear family.

I beg to disagree, the worst discworld book is either Equal Rites or Eric, the Colour of Magic may be unpolished, but it has a real nice flow in absurdity and classic references... Even if it has nothing, absolutely, on Small Gods, day and night those. (and while the first Malazan has gross continuity problems with the others, the quality difference is minor; the thing that inflated the most as the story went on was the author's ego.)

I'll say, Daniel is cool, but if you find Brienne boring (fie! I scoff at your judgement too.) you'll likely find there is a lack of things blowing up spectacularly in the fantasy he writes. Though maybe The Dagger and the Coin is more Eddings-y than the Long Price, I don't know.

It's not Brienne that is boring, it's what been done with the character that is boring. Interesting character, boring chapters.

[Clueless Northman]

No, I see grimdark as having a sense of futility and even nihilism permeating it. Making life seem meaningless and full of suffering.

In that respect Abercrombie is far worse than Martin. In Martin's tale, the value of family is still something that holds the Starks together despite the most horrific of tribulations. "The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives".

Yep. The next books might change this view of ASOIAF.

Besides, not only do characters have morals, virtues and "good" traits aren't always diminished or considered weakness by Martin or by the events. I mean, the "Stupid Ned" is a post-TV series meme, the vast majority of readers were pissed off and considered him an honorable man and quite the hero of the first book.

Yup. I strikes me as a bit weird. Once upon a time, badass and gangsta's were cool when you were a teenager, it seems nowadays everybody think it's cool. The rule of cool!!!! And they want them badassers, gangsterer, and meaner.

I don't think it's that people love bad people more than before. I think it's rather the the world as a whole is becoming more dangerous and violent, and Western societies' golden age is over, things are more difficult for most people - specially with the economic wose of the time.

So, people don't buy anymore the "it's a nice world, people are naturally nice, your leaders are nice and have your well-being at heart, big business is your friend and only wants to provide you with nice goods, and your banker just wants you to achieve your dreams". Nowadays, many people consider all this as lies and bullshit, and therefore are glad when they can see books and movies that don't pander to the "happy ending" and "everything is fine, it's a wonderful world" shtick that was basically all that we could find just a few decades ago, and which is still the bulk of mainstream entertainment.

So, grimdark is becoming fast too cliche and overdone, but having some kind of violent, bloody realism with mostly grey characters and some truly evil bastards who might get away with it to some limited extent has been a very welcome change to the pervasive hollywoodized / disneyfied view of the world.

As far as I'm concerned, grimdark for the sake of grimdark is fine for one or two books/series, but after that, it's just pointless. That said, the opposite is just as true, and stuff like the above description of the Belgariad is a plight upon mankind's mind and creative spirit, as far as I'm concerned. Might be good enough for a random video RPG's plot, but nothing more than that.

[Errant Bard]

Yeah there's been an incorrect understanding of the direction of causality of the phenomenon I was referring to.

I think everyone understood that but decided to make fun of it, man.

It's not Brienne that is boring, it's what been done with the character that is boring. Interesting character, boring chapters.

Yeah, no, not in the least. They explore the meaning of being a white knight in shining armour, innocence, honour, loyalty, sexism, love, judgement, on top of providing a view on people who are neither nobles on this side or nobles on the other side. Not boring. I maintain what I say: you find Brienne' (or Brienne's chapters) boring, the Long Price might be too tall an ordeal for you.

Besides, not only do characters have morals, virtues and "good" traits aren't always diminished or considered weakness by Martin or by the events. I mean, the "Stupid Ned" is a post-TV series meme, the vast majority of readers were pissed off and considered him an honorable man and quite the hero of the first book.

It's not antithetical. I don't know about being "pissed off", that seem childish, but readers would still like the character, consider him a good and honourable man, while recognizing he was stupid to do what he did. This is Free Northman's spiel, that, the manicheism of the good, honest, pure, free, hard, honourable savage versus the corrupt, civilized, scheming, devious, twisted, stupid, soft city dweller. That one character's intransigence about his "good" point should be his downfall, well why the fuck would "good points" be impossible to exploit or prevent weaknesses from being exploited? It happens, characters should not receive plot armour by virtue of being virtuous, they can also be virtuous and savvy. Ned was not savvy.

[Rhom]

On a side note, could someone explain to me why Abercrombie is constantly used as the poster boy for grimdark? He's not the first to do it and compared to some other authors his books come off as... not too grimdark at all.

Well... it is his Twitter handle after all. :dunno:

[Shryke]

This thread has reinforced my opinion that no one means the same thing when they use the term Grimdark.

To me, Grimdark is ridiculous. It's over the top. It's Warhammer 40K (where the term comes from).

For what some people refer to here, I would use gritty. ASOIAF is gritty. It's dirty and mean and vicious and people die, but it's not over the top or silly or doing it just to show up the next guy.

ASOIAF is gritty romanticism.

Abercrombie is gritty but also cynical.

Gritty is what happens when you take the veneer of children's story off fantasy imo. When you get a bit dirty.

Grimdark is what happens when you read ASOAIF and decide what makes it awesome and so fresh feeling is all the killing and blood and sex and swearing. (ie - when you miss the point)

[Free Northman Reborn]

I think everyone understood that but decided to make fun of it, man.

Yeah, no, not in the least. They explore the meaning of being a white knight in shining armour, innocence, honour, loyalty, sexism, love, judgement, on top of providing a view on people who are neither nobles on this side or nobles on the other side. Not boring. I maintain what I say: you find Brienne' (or Brienne's chapters) boring, the Long Price might be too tall an ordeal for you.

Are most readers actually interested in that type of philosophical exploration? Most don't give a shit. Personally, I don't read "literature". I read good yarns.

Like Louis Lamour said. He considers himself above all else, a good storyteller. That's what should matter. Not the "social commentary" and all that bullshit.

[Shryke]

I think everyone understood that but decided to make fun of it, man.

No I think people are very much making fun of the whole "It used to be so much better back in the day" nostalgic bullshit.

[Shryke]

Are most readers actually interested in that type of philosophical exploration? Most don't give a shit. Personally, I don't read "literature". I read good yarns.

Like Louis Lamour said. He considers himself above all else, a good storyteller. That's what should matter. Not the "social commentary" and all that bullshit.

Who cares?

You can miss all the themes and text and subtext you want, it doesn't mean they aren't there.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Who cares?

You can miss all the themes and text and subtext you want, it doesn't mean they aren't there.

Two posters were debating about whether Brienne is a boring character or not. One pointed out all the subtext that changed her fairly boring story into something deeply meaningful to him. My point is that if that deeper meaning eludes or does not interest most readers, then she will indeed be a boring character to them, compared to say Arya or Cersei or Daenerys, who are female characters that do far more interesting things than Brienne as far as the plot is concerned.

[Shryke]

Two posters were debating about whether Brienne is a boring character or not. One pointed out all the subtext that changed her fairly boring story into something deeply meaningful to him. My point is that if that deeper meaning eludes or does not interest most readers, then she will indeed be a boring character to them, compared to say Arya or Cersei or Daenerys, who are female characters that do far more interesting things than Brienne as far as the plot is concerned.

Some people being poor readers does not make her a boring character.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Some people being poor readers does not make her a boring character.

Incredibly predictable and shallow response.

People can be extremely aware of the theme that Martin is exploring through Brienne's character, but they could just not be interested in it. That does not make them poor readers. But it does make Brienne a boring character to them.

Just like her counterpart on the male side - Samwell Tarly, could be a boring character to many.

While it is an obsession of the feminist movement and those males influenced by it, gender issues are not an interesting topic for everyone. Some people couldn't give two hoots about it, whether the exploration is about female or male gender roles in a particular setting.

[Errant Bard]

Are most readers actually interested in that type of philosophical exploration? Most don't give a shit. Personally, I don't read "literature". I read good yarns.

Like Louis Lamour said. He considers himself above all else, a good storyteller. That's what should matter. Not the "social commentary" and all that bullshit.

I don't care about what most people* are interested in, nor in what you consider should matter, I was commenting on how if he finds Brienne's chapters boring, he would likely find the Long Price boring. I obviously personally see the Brienne chapters as being really rich and not deserving being labelled "boring", and I liked the Long Price. Make of that what you will.

*Though I have to say that if I consider the success of stuff like To Kill a Mockingbird I think people are more interested in this stuff than you try to imply.

No I think people are very much making fun of the whole "It used to be so much better back in the day" nostalgic bullshit.

Indeed, and Joe won that round, now get off my lawn, hippie.

[Shryke]

Incredibly predictable and shallow response.

People can be extremely aware of the theme that Martin is exploring through Brienne's character, but they could just not be interested in it. That does not make them poor readers. But it does make Brienne a boring character to them.

Just like her counterpart on the male side - Samwell Tarly, could be a boring character to many.

While it is an obsession of the feminist movement and those males influenced by it, gender issues are not an interesting topic for everyone. Some people couldn't give two hoots about it, whether the exploration is about female or male gender roles in a particular setting.

Except you just said they weren't aware of them. Maybe you should decide what argument you are actually trying to make, firm it up and then get back to us.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Except you just said they weren't aware of them. Maybe you should decide what argument you are actually trying to make, firm it up and then get back to us.

Read it again, champ.

I said it could elude some people, and not interest others. You chose to focus only on the first category, implying that this is the reason people find Brienne boring.

I politely pointed out your error.

[Shryke]

Read it again, champ.

I said it could elude some people, and not interest others. You chose to focus only on the first category, implying that this is the reason people find Brienne boring.

I politely pointed out your error.

So they are a combination of two kinds of bad readers then? Tell us more! Even if we assume they notice it but don't care (a dubious contention, but whatever we'll roll with it for now) that just makes them a deliberately bad reader rather then an accidental one.

PS - I'm not sure you understand many simple concepts. Including, it appears, what the word "politely" means. In the future, you may want to try and post without so blatantly showing your ignorance on certain issues.

[Free Northman Reborn]

So they are a combination of two kinds of bad readers then? Tell us more! Even if we assume they notice it but don't care (a dubious contention, but whatever we'll roll with it for now) that just makes them a deliberately bad reader rather then an accidental one.

PS - I'm not sure you understand many simple concepts. Including, it appears, what the word "politely" means. In the future, you may want to try and post without so blatantly showing your ignorance on certain issues.

At least you've now admitted that if someone does not share your idea of what an interesting issue should be, they are a "bad reader" in your book.

I understand the gender issues explored through Brienne's character, but I don't find those issues interesting. Hence, in Shryke's dictionary, I am a bad reader. Point taken.

[polishgenius]

Just to weigh in on the Long Price/Daniel Abraham thing before this ridiculous argument puts someone off for life- I don't find Brienne spectacularly interesting, and I fucking adore Abraham. Suggesting that someone won't like those books because they didn't like what you like about one smallish aspect of aSoIaF is presumptuous to say the least.

Quite apart from anything else, Abraham is a better writer so even if they're aiming for the same goals (which they're not overall, though they have similar aspects, especially in Dagger and Coin), his execution is better.

[Shryke]

At least you've now admitted that if someone does not share your idea of what an interesting issue should be, they are a "bad reader" in your book.

Huh? Right from the start I said "If someone misses the subtext/theme/motifs/etc, they aren't reading the text very well". I mean, it's not even what you claim here (which is just flim-flam), but I flat out said it from the start.

I understand the gender issues explored through Brienne's character, but I don't find those issues interesting. Hence, in Shryke's dictionary, I am a bad reader. Point taken.

Well, firstly I don't think you do at all given your anti-feminist spiel above. And secondly, yeah, you don't seem like a very attentive reader.

[Green Gogol]

Just to weigh in on the Long Price/Daniel Abraham thing before this ridiculous argument puts someone off for life- I don't find Brienne spectacularly interesting, and I fucking adore Abraham. Suggesting that someone won't like those books because they didn't like what you like about one smallish aspect of aSoIaF is presumptuous to say the least.

Quite apart from anything else, Abraham is a better writer so even if they're aiming for the same goals (which they're not overall, though they have similar aspects, especially in Dagger and Coin), his execution is better.

And I would add this to the Brienne argument. I think exploring the character and her issue would have made a great novel all on its own. But I find them pointless and boring in the context of Asoiaf.

[Errant Bard]

Suggesting that someone won't like those books because they didn't like what you like about one smallish aspect of aSoIaF is presumptuous to say the least.

And how would you qualify someone who transforms what was "may not"/"likely not" in "will not", and argues against the latter, quite insultingly? (beside the passive aggressivity, I mean)