Fool of a Book Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Arya travels to the burnt Saltpans, travels to Braavos and is reborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 GRRM confirmed that "the prince that was promised" and "Azor Ahai reborn" are prophecies that refer to the same figure. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/6320 Isn't that just because the show doesn't have Azor Ahai at all? Just because the show rolled them together doesn't mean they are the same for the purposes of the book. True. That is why I said that all the Messianic figures are the same person. While PTWP and AA may be the same due to some overlap and they're both from essos cultures, how do you explain the story of the Last Hero being nothing like either of them? Personally I think it goes down like this. AA starts the cycle with a win for team Fire. (births dragons) Last Hero continues cycle with a win for team Ice. (Wall goes up afterwards) PTWP ends the cycle by joining Ice and Fire yada yada. AAR is just R'hlloorrists trying to appropriate PTWP for their own purposes, for fire to reign supreme again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiasyd Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Isn't that just because the show doesn't have Azor Ahai at all? Just because the show rolled them together doesn't mean they are the same for the purposes of the book. Did you have a chance to read Elio's note about this interview in the SSM? NOTE: While we do not normally include HBO's videos for the series, we make an exception here because Martin makes two statements that are relevant to the novels: one, that Theon Greyjoy (and his brothers) were "properly" drowned when children, as opposed to the sort of baptismal bath that infants now often receive; and two, an explicit connection of Stannis Baratheon to the prophecy of "the prince who was promised", clearly indicating that this prophecy and the prophecy of Azor Ahai reborn deal with the same prophesized savior.Elio's note explicitly says that GRRM's statements about tPwwP and AA prophesying the same savior are relevant to the novels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Well, in that case I stand corrected. Nevertheless I stand by my original statement that TPTWP and AAR is the same person as stated by GRRM. Did you have a chance to read Elio's note about this interview in the SSM? Elio's note explicitly says that GRRM's statements about tPwwP and AA prophesying the same savior are relevant to the novels.It's not actually what GRRM said. He was talking about what Melisandre thinks, which is already in the books. The show has also not used AAR. The interview is also a product of HBO, which edits things to fit their own canon. If this was said by GRRM in regards to the books, would be a totally different thing. I don't think there is much reason to consider that any one forumer, even one who created the forum, has all the answers. Elio used an HBO interview to support stuff in the books, but that is not how it should be done. Show semi-canon should be considered separately from book semi-canon. I'm not trying to argue that the idea of TPTWP and AAR are or are not the same person, merely that this is not the evidence that is being suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiasyd Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 It's not actually what GRRM said. He was talking about what Melisandre thinks, which is already in the books. The show has also not used AAR. The interview is also a product of HBO, which edits things to fit their own canon. If this was said by GRRM in regards to the books, would be a totally different thing. I don't think there is much reason to consider that any one forumer, even one who created the forum, has all the answers. Elio used an HBO interview to support stuff in the books, but that is not how it should be done. Show semi-canon should be considered separately from book semi-canon. I'm not trying to argue that the idea of TPTWP and AAR are or are not the same person, merely that this is not the evidence that is being suggested. I'm not saying that you're devoid of reason, but a GRRM interview, backed by Elio's note and a SSM record on this site is enough evidence for me. I wouldn't mind if the info is corrected later on in future volumes, but so far, I consider it a evidence reliable enough to something that is already commonly implied by the books by Mel and MsC Aemon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I'm not saying that you're devoid of reason, but a GRRM interview, backed by Elio's note and a SSM record on this site is enough evidence for me. I wouldn't mind if the info is corrected later on in future volumes, but so far, I consider it a evidence reliable enough to something that is already commonly implied by the books by Mel and MsC Aemon. I agree. Mel already states that they are one and the same. That is what should be used as evidence if someone wants to remark on how they are one and the same. Elio co-authored the World app. One would think that this info would be included in the app, something that is actually semi-canon for the text. As far as I have seen, it's not included in any entry. One would also think that an interview that is not edited for the show would be included in the SSM compendium. Surely someone has asked Martin this, probably dozens of times. As far as I've seen, there isn't an SSM available. Doesn't mean it's not there. If there is one related to the books, then that should be the SSM presented as evidence. Not one that is about the show. Elio isn't always right about things. After all, he insists that Targaryens and dragons copulated in the past and provides no evidence. The interview also states exactly what's in the books, which is that Mel believes AAR and TPTWP are the same thing. He's presenting this as confirmation for something that was not already known but we already knew that Mel considers them the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiasyd Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I agree. Mel already states that they are one and the same. That is what should be used as evidence if someone wants to remark on how they are one and the same. I respectfully disagree with you on your approach for this particular SSM, but I prefer to not discuss it any further (don't think we'll reach a consensus) and provide a new quote: But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?""He stands before you," Melisandre declared, "though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes."So, MsC Aemon asks about tPwwP, and Mel answers with AA - so far, this is exactly what you're saying, it's Mel's view that tPwwP=AA, however, Aemon doesn't contest it later, even though he requests to see Lightbringer and notes on the absence of warmth. It's somewhat implied that he is reluctant in accept Stannis as the savior (he later on speaks about Dany) but doesn't hesitate about tPwwP=AA. To summarise my argument, I think we can say that MsC also believes in tPwwP=AA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franko99 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Wiki ain't canon really. And the video and SSM mentioned above have been debated many times on the boards. If I find the thread I'll post it here. Anyway, I think what GRRM may be suggesting is that Mel believes they're the same. Aemon believes it's the same person as well. Anyways I think there won't be one savior, but a group of characters doing their part (Stannis, Jon, Bran etc.) just like I don't believe there was one AA during the long night, it's just that as time pass the legend merge all the people who fought the others into one "super hero" which, of course never existed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I respectfully disagree with you on your approach for this particular SSM, but I prefer to not discuss it any further (don't think we'll reach a consensus) and provide a new quote: So, MsC Aemon asks about tPwwP, and Mel answers with AA - so far, this is exactly what you're saying, it's Mel's view that tPwwP=AA, however, Aemon doesn't contest it later, even though he requests to see Lightbringer and notes on the absence of warmth. It's somewhat implied that he is reluctant in accept Stannis as the savior (he later on speaks about Dany) but doesn't hesitate about tPwwP=AA. To summarise my argument, I think we can say that MsC also believes in tPwwP=AA.I'm not actually arguing whether or not they are the same person or different people. I'm pointing out that the video is not what some are suggesting it is. It's not evidence for the books, because show canon is different. All the interview points out is that Melisandre declares Stannis the prince that was promised, which she does in the book. This portion of the interview is from the POV of Melisandre. The interview also does not mention AAR or R'hllor, the show has seemed to do away with both of these terms so far. The quotes you have provided from two POVs from the book is actual sufficient evidence to argue your case. My only point is that the video is not, as it deals with the show, and it's certainly not any sort of confirmation for what's being suggested as there has never been a question of Mel thinking AAR and ptwp are the same. We've known this since she's been on the scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymoon Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Aegon+born under a red comet (A&P)+Aerys's grandson (P)+warrior (A&P)+proclaimed by Rhaegar (P)-no salt or smoke-no dragons-no Lightbringer-dead? Synopsis: Even if fAegon is Rhaegar's long-lost son, only bloodline and comet support him. Rather unlikely to be the prince, almost certainly not Azor. I think there was a bleeding star in the sky when Aegon was conceived, not when he was born... One thing that bothers me is that everyone assumes there must be a "rebirth" for AA. To me the "rebirth" of AA = his reincarnation (AA's second coming). I don't think there's the need for anything of the sort of what happened to Dany in the Red Waste (to me that'd be Dany's "rebirth" not AA's reincarnation). Melisandre doesn't seem to think it necessary that Stannis should first "die" then be "reborn" to fit the prophecy. She believes that Stannis fits the prophecy either way - thus that the circumstances of his first and only physical birth are sufficient to make him a valid candidate for AA. I wonder if she knows that he wasn't born on Dragonstone? One would assume she does - but she keeps repeating that Dragonstone is the place of salt and smoke, I think... and anyway she seems confused about the prophecy. I like the idea that "salt and smoke" is metaphorical, as another poster mentioned on the R+L=J thread; that "salt + smoke" = grief/war...on the other hand it’s also been speculated fairly recently on that same thread that Rhaegar was AA reborn (salt+smoke = Summerhall) and that he "forged" Lightbringer (the Prince that Was Promised) with Lyanna...eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 [mod hat] Please stay on topic and save the bile against a character to specific hate threads (the ones we allow, any way). Thanks. [/mod hat] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 While PTWP and AA may be the same due to some overlap and they're both from essos cultures, how do you explain the story of the Last Hero being nothing like either of them? Because LH comes from a different culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blugenes Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Shireen Baratheon might be the prince and/or Azor Ahai as well. Quoting from the OP: What we know of the prince:-a bleeding star heralds his coming-he's born amidst salt and smoke-his is "the song of ice and fire"-the prince is a warrior-he's of the Targaryen line (Aerys & Rhaella's) *She watches her uncle die along with the burning of the Seven by Melisandre*Likely born at Dragonstone*Raised next to a volcano (Dragonstone) then near a giant frozen river (The Wall)*Thought not trained as a warrior how would Shireen react to life-threatening danger?*Her great-grandmother was in fact a Targaryen*She seems to fear few things other than dragons eating her Quoting from the OP again: What we know of Azor's rebirth:-his rebirth is marked by bleeding stars and gathering darkness-he's born again amidst salt and smoke-he will challenge "the darkness" using Lightbringer, which was originally forged by stabbing Nissa Nissa with it-he will wake the stone dragons *Melisandre is burning the faithful of the Seven and Old Gods amidst the increasing presence of the Others*Born at Dragonstone?*Perhaps Lightbringer is somewhere that only Shireen knows or she becomes the first to find it, or maybe Jon himself is Lightbringer having been forged by Rhaegar and with Lyanna dying as he was born*Dragonstone is thought to hold both dragon eggs and is loaded with stone dragons, she might be privy to many of the castle's secrets and perhaps unknowingly a means to activate it somehow. It might be enough for significant heat under the right conditions to hatch dragon eggs, and a volcano like that at Dragonstone would likely suffice given the Fourteen Fires of Valyria being used to the same effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden of the Cheesy Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Did you have a chance to read Elio's note about this interview in the SSM? Elio's note explicitly says that GRRM's statements about tPwwP and AA prophesying the same savior are relevant to the novels.Even GRRM has said we read too much into prophecies, could easily be neither is true at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden of the Cheesy Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I think GRRM is toying with us. The TPWWP is the same figure as Azor Ahai in the sense that the Three-Headed Dragon is one figure. I personally still think Jon is Azor Ahain and either Dany or Aegon is TPWWP. The third head could just be whoever else rides one of the dragons, whether that is Aegon, Victarion, or even Bran by virtue of Warging who knows?I think it's highly unlikely that Jon isn't any of the three prophecised heroes, the third being the Last Hero, it just seems like a lot of building up for nothing otherwsie. I've also thought that Benjen would be a good pick for the Last Hero as well, althought its unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sages Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Jon +"rebirth" marked by bleeding stars, gathering darkness, salt and smoke (A&P) +birth marked by a bleeding star (P) +warrior (A&P) +battles the Others (A&P) +had a vision of fighting the Others with Lightbringer (A&P) +more or less killed Ygritte (A) +grandson of Aerys? (P) +Melisandre see him in her fires (A) +/-regular lowborn-turned-prince archetype (P?) -but is he Rhaegar's son? -no dragons or Lightbringer Synopsis: If R+L=J is true, very likely to be the prince. Azor-theory is held back by the lack of Lightbringer and/or dragons. Based on the words of The Night's Watch vows, I have to disagree with you here. It's very possible that the Night's Watch is the sword that Jon will use to defeat the others. Not some magical sword. I'm not saying he won't get some kind of special sword forged for him at some point later. But it's not required. Remember also that Azor Ahai tried to forge his sword three times before he finally got it right. It seems very likely that the Night's watch in its current form will be destroyed. Afterwards Jon will have an opportunity to reforge it. And use it to defeat the others. Remember Jon has already been doing a reorganization of sorts. Reopening the old castles and finding people to man the wall through whatever means necessary, he even found a way to keep everyone fed until spring by borrowing from the iron bank. I'd say he's well on his way to fulfilling the prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiasyd Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Even GRRM has said we read too much into prophecies, could easily be neither is true at all. Did you read my other post, where I quote Mel and Maester Aemon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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