byronlhsdrmr Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I just happened to be flipping through A Dance with Dragons last night and I stumbled upon something interesting in Bran's first chapter. At the end of Bran I, Bran comes to the--discovery--that Coldhands is, well, dead. He says to Meera, "He's some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true, that's what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wilding girl. So, it is established that Coldhands is restricted by the same laws that restrict the Others. He is unable to pass beneath the wall on his own. He is also unable to enter the cave of the children of the forest a couple Bran chapters later. The bolded line above is what really interested me though. Monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands. This we know. So much has been made of the Horn of Joruman that will, in theory, shatter the wall and allow the Others to pass through. So, we have all speculated that at some point the wall will fall. However, what if the wall does not have to fall? What if only that bolded portion has to be true, "the men of the Night's Watch stay true." Perhaps by--killing--Jon Snow the men of the Night's Watch are no longer "true"? Or, the first couple chapters they turn completely away from combating the evil on the other side of the wall and thus allow the wall to become vulnerable? Many people have speculated the wall will fall at the end of the Winds of Winter opening Westeros to an Others invasion. But, what if the men of the Night's Watch are no longer true and they can be attacked...now. It'd be an interesting turn of events to be sure. On a side note, I wanted to bounce another thought about the others off some people. In A Game of Thrones, Ghost finds the dead bodies of Benjen Starks colleagues, Otho and Flowers were they? Then those two wake up as wights in the night and are able to attack the Night's Watch as wights before being subdued. If those wights were able to be dragged past the wall and into castle black. Why couldn't Sam drag Coldhands, or accompany Coldhands through the wall? Why were those wights able to pass the wall? Cause they were unconscious? It's something that has always bugged me. I feel like the rules of the Others wasn't quite established at that point, but I want to know what was significant about that event that allowed it to happen. Especially since Jon's corpses in the ice cells have yet--yes, yet--to develop into wights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 That's a popular theory. Not the most popular, but a close second or third. Otho and Jafer could be dragged through the Wall, yes. Emphasis on dragged. Not out of their own accord. Which means that Sam could have dragged an inactive Coldhands through a gate (maybe not the sentient Black Gate though). But to what purpose? He's needed on the northern side anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Lee knot Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I tend to think that the bodies were able to be dragged in while they were inactive and it's that simple. The reason Jon's two bodies haven't activated though may be for two reasons. 1. They are technically inside the wall thus right on top of the magical barrier that would normally prohibit their passing. So what ever magical force that animates them is being blocked/canceled out. 2. The White Walker overlord chooses when they rise and hibernate and probably doesn't see any reason to make them rise. The White Walker most likely knows they are being kept in chains and a cell so it's not worth the Night's Watch getting any information out of the bodies by making them animate. It could also be a combination of both 1 and 2. The White Walker doesn't have a reason to animate them and he couldn't even if he wanted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultimate Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I may be wrong here so don't hold me to this but.. When Ghost found the bodies it was during the daytime (I think I remember reading they wanted to hurry so they could be back before nightfall). When Coldhand's sent Sam after Bran it was night (I believe they were resting in the castle that was supposed to host the Ratcook). Isn't it stated somewhere that the Whitewalkers cannot survive or that they are not active during daytime thus making them the enemies of the Lord of Light and also they reason the attacked last time during winter (long night). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I may be wrong here so don't hold me to this but.. When Ghost found the bodies it was during the daytime (I think I remember reading they wanted to hurry so they could be back before nightfall). When Coldhand's sent Sam after Bran it was night (I believe they were resting in the castle that was supposed to host the Ratcook). Isn't it stated somewhere that the Whitewalkers cannot survive or that they are not active during daytime thus making them the enemies of the Lord of Light and also they reason the attacked last time during winter (long night). While the wights only attacked during the night and even Coldhands fought only by night, he accompagnied first Sam, Gilly and her babe and later Bran, Meera and Jojen for weeks - during daylight as well as by night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winteristheseason Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 good idea except the mutiny at crasters keep is a better example of the nights watch not staying "true". They violated the sacred law of hospitality which is very important to the old gods and the north. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluecore Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 When they stab Jon Snow in his last chapter though, they do so while saying under their breaths, "For the Watch". This may lead you to think that it was in fact Jon who they viewed as not staying true, and they see him as the problem you propose. It seems to me they view his involvement in southern affairs as imminent. Those of the Night's Watch who were involved in the mutiny at Craster's Keep all died, did they not? I think what happened there, in this context, is pretty much irrelevant by the end of the 5th book. They're all dead, and the Night's Watch who are at the Wall at the end of book 5 had nothing to do with that. Or, if I am mistaken, those who did make it back took no part in the mutiny, or were on the "good" side of it...correct me if I'm wrong. Point being, I think up to the point Jon is attacked in his final chapter, all of the Night's Watch who are present at the wall are there for the right reasons, in the context of your bolded quote. I do not believe the Wall will fall. I think when the Others are finally addressed by the realm, the fighting will take place North of the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitering Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 The Watch has already fallen, Jon was the only one seriously holding onto the Old Vows and their spirit. He's the only one fighting to protect humanity, and staunchly facing the Others. The grand majority of the rest of the Watch is more concerned with their own asses and are staunchly opposed to actually protecting all people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thor2006 Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 The Watch has already fallen, Jon was the only one seriously holding onto the Old Vows and their spirit. He's the only one fighting to protect humanity, and staunchly facing the Others. The grand majority of the rest of the Watch is more concerned with their own asses and are staunchly opposed to actually protecting all people. Ya going to lead the Night Watch and the wildlings in battle with Stannis is preserving the spirit and word of Jon's vow. :frown5: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 The Watch has already fallen, Jon was the only one seriously holding onto the Old Vows and their spirit. He's the only one fighting to protect humanity, and staunchly facing the Others. The grand majority of the rest of the Watch is more concerned with their own asses and are staunchly opposed to actually protecting all people. In that case the Watch fell thousand of years ago. No one has thought the Others were real for a looong time. Not even the Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Alternative reading: Heroic Bowen Marsh saved Westeros from the Others by murdering the treacherous Lord Commander without being afraid of personal consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegeta_Greyjoy Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I wonder if the same thing will happen to Jaime. He had that dream of being forced into the depths of Casterly Rock to face something he was dreading. I wonder if he'll be forced to testify that Tommen is illegitimate, but the KG will murder him before he gets the chance. So many parallels between the Kingsguard and the Nights Watch. White and black, weirwood and ebon. It makes you wonder if the NW wasn't started as a Kingsguard in their own right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitering Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 There was a pretty good analysis somewhere of which oaths are original and which were added on later just to mollify rulers in the Seven Kingdoms. So, by turning their backs on the Wildlings, who are men, First Men at that, which will happen after the whole Jon thing... Well, maybe breaking those oaths, which they no longer understand will break the magic of the Wall itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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