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Ramsays 63 and Daenerys 163... Is Martin trying to hint something?


Señor de la Tormenta

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What's so bad about slavery when compared to serfdom?!

They're both horrible, but at least in serfdom your Lord shouldn't be able to just point to you and say, "he dies". Masters can. I say shouldn't because the system is corrupt and we get lords like Ramsey that seem to basically do just that. But he has to be sneaky about it. If his Lord finds out, his lord can have him killed. Lords are not supposed to abuse their serfs. There's no rule against that in slavery. Serfs get to keep their identity, slaves do not. Serfs are not property, slaves are.

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Nobody calls them innocent. Do you believe Jorah should be executed too?

Yes, I do. Ned should have killed him, but Jorah ran away like a little b*tch. Now he's a slave himself, and getting what he deserves. If he ends up with some happy ending I'll be extremely disappointed in GRRM.

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She crucified 163 people, but she could'nt be completely sure they all were: 1/ responsible for crucification of children; 2/ unresponsible of crucification of children.

She should be sure or she should'nt crucify them.

Who is more dangerous?

Dany.

Who is the worst morally?

Ramsay.

In a thread that is full of booohooDanyisdabestevaryouallspikbczyrjlous this is the best post. Well done ma'am!

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If anything, I imagine GRRM was drawing a parallel between Ramsay and the Great Masters. After all, their crucifixions were done with the intention of taunting their enemies, whilst Dany crucified the Great Masters out of a misguided sense of justice. Whatever we may think of it, "an eye for an eye" is still considered a form of justice, whilst crucifying enemies who have surrendered (after being promised mercy) and crucifying innocent slave children cannot be considered justice in any sense of the word.



Dany also displayed feelings of guilt, regret and horror at her actions, something Ramsay and the Great Masters have yet to do. So, again, if a parallel is meant to be drawn between Ramsay and Dany, it's likely to distinguish Dany from Ramsay and those like him.



I think it's also hugely important to Dany's arc in Meereen. Throughout her time there she begins to adopt their customs, their clothing, their "justice", and their cruelty. But by the end of ADwD, she realises that:



Meereen would always be the Harpy’s city, and Daenerys could not be a harpy.

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Guys lets not be so hard.

We are discussing two characters; an evil one, and one who had a difficult childhood, a very harsh relative, and was often abused. But now that character is trying to restore his House to power, despite everything going against - of course, to finish on top, some difficult and un-noble decisions have to be made!

And then the other character is Daenerys.

lol. I was totally intending to quote you to say that you could be talking about either Dany or Ramsay above, then... boom - You had already beaten me there. nice

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Guys lets not be so hard.

We are discussing two characters; an evil one, and one who had a difficult childhood, a very harsh relative, and was often abused. But now that character is trying to restore his House to power, despite everything going against - of course, to finish on top, some difficult and un-noble decisions have to be made!

And then the other character is Daenerys.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: RESPECT! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

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Lots of people call the slavers "innocent" or "potentially innocent". They aren't. Just because they might not have helped stake up the children doesn't mean they're not guilty of countless other deaths. These are not simply slave owners. They're the Great Masters. They're the ones running the whole show. They're the ones having people taken from their homes and sold off like cattle. These people often die, get abused, and always are treated horribly.

Then judge them for being a slaver. And execute them. Executing them for the wrong crime is a crime in itself.

And by the way, do the job right and judge Drogo, the Dothraki, Illyrio, Jorah and Dany herself as well.

Nobody calls them innocent. Do you believe Jorah should be executed too?

Men are sons of their envairoment. Do you belive George Washington deserved to be crucified?

This.

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Nobody calls them innocent. Do you believe Jorah should be executed too?

Ser Jorah was supposed to be executed by Westorosi law.

Men are sons of their envairoment. Do you belive George Washington deserved to be crucified?

George Washington doesn't live in Westoros...

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If anything, I imagine GRRM was drawing a parallel between Ramsay and the Great Masters. After all, their crucifixions were done with the intention of taunting their enemies, whilst Dany crucified the Great Masters out of a misguided sense of justice. Whatever we may think of it, "an eye for an eye" is still considered a form of justice, whilst crucifying enemies who have surrendered (after being promised mercy) and crucifying innocent slave children cannot be considered justice in any sense of the word.

Dany also displayed feelings of guilt, regret and horror at her actions, something Ramsay and the Great Masters have yet to do. So, again, if a parallel is meant to be drawn between Ramsay and Dany, it's likely to distinguish Dany from Ramsay and those like him.

I think it's also hugely important to Dany's arc in Meereen. Throughout her time there she begins to adopt their customs, their clothing, their "justice", and their cruelty. But by the end of ADwD, she realises that:

I think this is more or less the takeaway. I do think the repetition serves as a bit of critique in having chosen the method of monsters like Ramsay/ the GMs (albeit for a good cause), but the fact that adjacently to the Ironborn crucifixions she's expressing horror at her actions separates this from Ramsay. In a big way. I think it's abusing the connection here to suggest otherwise.

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Men are sons of their envairoment. Do you belive George Washington deserved to be crucified?

If he had crucified his slaves, then yes, he would have deserved it. As far as I know, he never did it. Saying someone is a product of their environment is a sad excuse for the continuation of horrid conditions. There was once slavery in my country (USA, don't know where you're from), until people realized it was wrong. It took time, but it was abolished. It doesn't make the people who owned slaves innocent though, just because at the time it was ok. My own ancestors once owned slaves, which I find repugnant. If their slaves had risen up against them, I wouldn't blame them. If someone came in and killed them for having owned them, I wouldn't blame them.

Fact is, the GMs of Meereen knew Dany was on her way. Knew what she did in Astapor and Yunkai. Yet they chose to antagonize her by slaughtering innocent children. They got what they deserved. If they had surrendered to her, like the IB that surrendered to Ramsey, and she still killed them, like Ramsey, then I'd agree she's a monster. That's not what happened though.

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Men are sons of their envairoment. Do you belive George Washington deserved to be crucified?





Why would George Washington need to be crucified? Dany crucified the Great Masters because they had crucified slave children, not because she thought crucifixion would be a cool punishment.



But, nonetheless, George Washington was a horrible guy.








Nobody calls them innocent. Do you believe Jorah should be executed too?





By the laws of Westeros, Jorah should be executed.



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