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Ravens crying Snow, Snow, Snow!


Mithras

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Has anybody been annoyed with the ravens crying Snow at the sight of Jon each time?



At the beginning, only the Mormont's Raven was calling Snow to Jon. As far as I remember, Sam taught some ravens to say Snow while they were going to Whitetree. After that the ravens went mad and started to call Snow every time they saw him. It happened at least 3 times. It became so ordinary that no one was giving any shit to that anymore or they never did from the beginning.



The ravens in Oldtown were also annoyingly crying Pate, Pate, Pate at the sight of the pig boy.



Is this important?



ETA:




Jon found Samwell Tarly with the other stewards, watering his horses. He had three to tend: his own mount, and two packhorses, each bearing a large wire-and-wicker cage full of ravens. The birds flapped their wings at Jon’s approach and screamed at him through the bars. A few shrieks sounded suspiciously like words. “Have you been teaching them to talk?” he asked Sam.



“A few words. Three of them can say snow.”



“One bird croaking my name was bad enough,” said Jon, “and snow’s nothing a black brother wants to hear about.” Snow often meant death in the north.



A fire was burning in the hearth, and the room was almost stuffy. The warmth made Jon sleepy. As soon as Noye eased him down onto his back, he closed his eyes to stop the world from spinning. He could hear the ravens quorking and complaining in the rookery above. “Snow,” one bird was saying. “Snow, snow, snow.” That was Sam’s doing, Jon remembered.



He [sam] could hear the birds quorking in the rookery, so he put the papers away and climbed the steps to feed them. Three more ravens had come in, he saw with pleasure. “Snow,” they cried at him. “Snow, snow, snow.” He had taught them that.



Jon had no wish to linger here. He started walking toward the wildling camp, past the body of a dead giant whose head had been crushed by a stone. A raven was pulling out bits of brain from the giant’s shattered skull. It looked up as he walked by. “Snow,” it screamed at him. “Snow, snow.” Then it opened its wings and flew away.



“I know that bird! That’s Lord Mormont’s raven!”



The raven landed on the table nearest Jon. “Snow,” it cawed. It was an old bird, dirty and bedraggled. “Snow,” it said again, “Snow, snow, snow.” It walked to the end of the table, spread its wings again, and flew to Jon’s shoulder.



Lord Janos Slynt sat down so heavily he made a thump, but Ser Alliser filled the vault with mocking laughter. “Ser Piggy thinks we’re all fools, brothers,” he said. “He’s taught the bird this little trick. They all say snow, go up to the rookery and hear for yourselves. Mormont’s bird had more words than that.”



The raven cocked its head and looked at Jon. “Corn?” it said hopefully. When it got neither corn nor answer, it quorked and muttered, “Kettle? Kettle? Kettle?”



Maester Aemon’s old chambers were so warm that the sudden cloud of steam when Mully pulled the door open was enough to blind the both of them. Within, a fresh fire was burning in the hearth, the logs crackling and spitting. Jon stepped over a puddle of damp clothing. “Snow, Snow, Snow,” the ravens called down from above. The girl was curled up near the fire, wrapped in a black woolen cloak three times her size and fast asleep.



The white ravens knew his name, and would mutter it to each other whenever they caught sight of him, “Pate, Pate, Pate,” until he wanted to scream. The big white birds were Archmaester Walgrave’s pride. He wanted them to eat him when he died, but Pate half suspected that they meant to eat him too.



If I pick that up, I am a thief, he remembered thinking. The key was old and heavy, made of black iron; supposedly it opened every door at the Citadel. Only the archmaesters had such keys. The others carried theirs upon their person or hid them away in some safe place, but if Walgrave had hidden his, no one would ever have seen it again. Pate snatched up the key and had been halfway to the door before turning back to take the silver too. A thief was a thief, whether he stole a little or a lot. “Pate,” one of the white ravens had called after him, “Pate, Pate, Pate.”



Snow.



”Sam glanced up at the sound. Lord Commander Mormont’s raven was circling the fire, beating the air with wide black wings.



“Snow,” the bird cawed. “Snow, snow.”



Wherever the raven went, Mormont soon followed.




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To Lamprey.



I believe I read somewhere in of the books that the Ravens are one of the magical creatures of westeros.



It was said that the ravens could speak the entire message you told it to say. The raven would carry on a conversation with you.



I don't know why the ravens lost that ability to read an entire message. But, that is what I remembered reading about them.



So, I think that because they lost the ability to carry on a conversation, they could only speak bits of it. And on top of that, the ravens are trying to communicate with the humans. So, in the case of Jon Snow, I believe that everytime Jon Snow was around, the raven would greet Jon or warn jon.



I picked up on the raven when it appeared to me that it was trying to warn jon about the backstabbers like Yarwick and Bowen Marsh. All it could do was say Snow Snow Snow!



The ravens are communicating with them. It's just that they are limited to the amount of words that come out at a time. But it is up to the humans to pick up on that.



It's the same thing with the Direwolves. Remember when Bowen marsh and yarwick came into see Jon? Immediately Ghost was growling at them. Ghost knew that they were up to something and was going to do Jon harm. But Jon was not able to pick up on it.



The ravens are magical creatures just like the Direwolves. They are communicating with the humans. But they cannot speak out an entire phrase to carry on a conversation like they used to.

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yet at the same bird called out King King and King Jon Snow and jon can never remember having heard the bird call him by his full name before. Why would he be reminding Jon that he's a bastard and not in line for the throne?

I was being sarcastic because people always harp on "King King King" and ignore "Snow Snow Snow".

To Lamprey.

I believe I read somewhere in of the books that the Ravens are one of the magical creatures of westeros.

It was said that the ravens could speak the entire message you told it to say. The raven would carry on a conversation with you.

I don't know why the ravens lost that ability to read an entire message. But, that is what I remembered reading about them.

So, I think that because they lost the ability to carry on a conversation, they could only speak bits of it. And on top of that, the ravens are trying to communicate with the humans. So, in the case of Jon Snow, I believe that everytime Jon Snow was around, the raven would greet Jon or warn jon.

I picked up on the raven when it appeared to me that it was trying to warn jon about the backstabbers like Yarwick and Bowen Marsh. All it could do was say Snow Snow Snow!

The ravens are communicating with them. It's just that they are limited to the amount of words that come out at a time. But it is up to the humans to pick up on that.

It's the same thing with the Direwolves. Remember when Bowen marsh and yarwick came into see Jon? Immediately Ghost was growling at them. Ghost knew that they were up to something and was going to do Jon harm. But Jon was not able to pick up on it.

The ravens are magical creatures just like the Direwolves. They are communicating with the humans. But they cannot speak out an entire phrase to carry on a conversation like they used to.

If I remember correctly, ravens were possessed by the children of the forest via skinchanging after death, which allowed them to carry messages. Each subsequent generation of ravens lost more and more of the essence of the CotF, and the ability to speak messages, until they switched over to carrying letters.

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He [sam] could hear the birds quorking in the rookery, so he put the papers away and climbed the steps to feed them. Three more ravens had come in, he saw with pleasure. “Snow,” they cried at him. “Snow, snow, snow.” He had taught them that.

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“I know that bird! That’s Lord Mormont’s raven!”

The raven landed on the table nearest Jon. “Snow,” it cawed. It was an old bird, dirty and bedraggled. “Snow,” it said again, “Snow, snow, snow.” It walked to the end of the table, spread its wings again, and flew to Jon’s shoulder.

Lord Janos Slynt sat down so heavily he made a thump, but Ser Alliser filled the vault with mocking laughter. “Ser Piggy thinks we’re all fools, brothers,” he said. “He’s taught the bird this little trick. They all say snow, go up to the rookery and hear for yourselves. Mormont’s bird had more words than that.”

The raven cocked its head and looked at Jon. “Corn?” it said hopefully. When it got neither corn nor answer, it quorked and muttered, “Kettle? Kettle? Kettle?

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There was an interesting thread about everything Mormont's raven has said over the course of the books, but I didn't keep up with it.



It seems possible that BR or a future, more powerful Bran (let's do the time warp) is warging the raven to send messages to help Jon like when it says fire so Jon remembers to burn the wight.


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Happened to pick this up today reading ADWD, Jon's chapter (not sure which number) where he is negotiating with Tormund to let the free folk pass through the Wall. He emerges from Tormund's tent to return to Castle Black:

Ghost was the only protection Jon needed; the direwolf could sniff out foes, even those who hid their enmity behind smiles.

Ghost was gone, though. Jon peeled off one black glove, put two fingers in his mouth, and whistled. "Ghost! To me."
From above came the sudden sound of wings. Mormont's raven flapped from a limb of an old oak to perch on Jon's saddle. "Corn," it cried. "Corn, corn, corn."
"Did you follow me as well?" Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. "Snow," it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

Very curious. The raven joins Jon at this monumental meeting to watch him broker a deal that might save humanity... Then as Jon calls his wolf, the raven appears, cocks his eye at Jon, and cries "Snow", then bobs its head knowingly. Perhaps BR getting a measure of Jon's warg connection with Ghost?

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  • 1 month later...

I think that because they lost the ability to carry on a conversation, they could only speak bits of it. And on top of that, the ravens are trying to communicate with the humans. So, in the case of Jon Snow, I believe that everytime Jon Snow was around, the raven would greet Jon or warn jon.

The ravens are communicating with them. It's just that they are limited to the amount of words that come out at a time. But it is up to the humans to pick up on that.

It's the same thing with the Direwolves. Remember when Bowen marsh and yarwick came into see Jon? Immediately Ghost was growling at them. Ghost knew that they were up to something and was going to do Jon harm. But Jon was not able to pick up on it.

The ravens are magical creatures just like the Direwolves. They are communicating with the humans. But they cannot speak out an entire phrase to carry on a conversation like they used to.

I COMPLETELY agree with you. To add, during a reread of Jon's chapters, I had an OMG moment when I noticed this:

...“He was, until he said the words. Now he is our brother. One who can teach the boys more than swordcraft. It would not hurt them to learn a few words of the Old Tongue and something of the ways of the free folk.”

Free,” the raven muttered. “Corn. King.”...

...Septon Cellador drank some wine. Othell Yarwyck stabbed a sausage with his dagger. Bower Marsh sat red-faced. The raven flapped its wings and said, “Corn, corn, kill.”

...“Snow,” screamed Lord Mormont’s raven. “Snow, Snow.”...

...Above the door the raven muttered, “Dead, dead, dead.

The quotes above were taken from Jon's chapter where he discusses with Bowen Marsh, Othell Yarwyck and Septon Cellador about the possibilities of bringing the Hardhome people to their side of the wall. At first it seems like the raven is just rumbling and picking up words but if you look closely what the raven says forms into something of a sentence: Free...King...kill...Snow. Then there's dead,dead, dead.

I think its possible that someone, a warg, a greenseer, is speaking through Mormont's raven and is trying to warn Jon about the conspiracy to kill him. Note how the raven, says "kill" and "king" when no one mentioned the words before like it did when Jon mentioned "free"

Note how it also mentions Snow three times and dead especially, three times.

Note also that the raven says these words when Bowen Marsh (and likely conspirators) are with Jon

Therefore

We know that Jon was stabbed three times (its likely there wasn't forth dagger since Jon did not feel anything after 3), so maybe the three "dead"s where a warning that he will be stabbed three times or by three people (?)

Then there is the kill...Snow part which obviously means plan to kill Jon.

The first part however, the, "Free" and "King" is quite interesting and not as straightforward as the other parts. If the raven is saying a free king wants Snow dead, might it mean that the King-beyond-the-wall was in cahoots with Bowen and crew? Unlikely since Jon saved his son from Mel's fires and all but Mance could be a suspect.

If we eliminate the "free," part as something the raven picked up and is as meaningless as the raven saying "corn" all the time (assuming the "corn" cry is meaningless), it could also mean that other kings would come into play.

Stannis would be the second suspect but he is just as unlikely as Mance if not more so since Jon helped him in getting the mountain clans to his side and with the Karstark conspiracy and all that other stuff.

That leaves us with the third most likely candidate; King Tommen. Or rather King Tommen's council.

This is a quote from one of Cersei's chapters. King Tommen's council is in session and they are discussing Jon Snow's "paper shield",

Qyburn leaned forward with a smile. “The Night’s Watch defends us all from snarks and grumkins. My lords, I say that we must help the brave black brothers.”

Cersei gave him a sharp look. “What are you saying?”

“This,” Qyburn said. “For years now, the Night’s Watch has begged for men. Lord Stannis has answered their plea. Can King Tommen do less? His Grace should send the Wall a hundred men. To take the black, ostensibly, but in truth...”

“...to remove Jon Snow from the command,” Cersei finished, delighted. I knew I was right to want him on my council. “That is just what we shall do.” She laughed. If this bastard boy is truly his father’s son, he will not suspect a thing. Perhaps he will even thank me, before the blade slides between his ribs. “It will need to be done carefully, to be sure. Leave the rest to me, my lords.” This was how an enemy should be dealt with: with a dagger, not a declaration.

It is very likely that Cersei sent someone among the new recruits to kill Jon Snow but that person probably found it an easy job with all the disgruntlement among the brothers, and all he had to do was to convince Bowen and Crew that they would get the King's protection if they did the deed (flimsy as it is). It is also possible that one of the brothers secretly sent a raven to King's Landing, informing them of what Jon Snow was doing (bringing in wildlings, helping stannis, marrying off Alys to a wildling) and got a "kill the commander" reply(?)
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I COMPLETELY agree with you. To add, during a reread of Jon's chapters, I had an OMG moment when I noticed this:




...“He was, until he said the words. Now he is our brother. One who can teach the boys more than swordcraft. It would not hurt them to learn a few words of the Old Tongue and something of the ways of the free folk.”



Free,” the raven muttered. “Corn. King.”...


...Septon Cellador drank some wine. Othell Yarwyck stabbed a sausage with his dagger. Bower Marsh sat red-faced. The raven flapped its wings and said, “Corn, corn, kill.”


...“Snow,” screamed Lord Mormont’s raven. “Snow, Snow.”...


...Above the door the raven muttered, “Dead, dead, dead.





Nice quote, Queen B Cersei! I read it, though, not so much as a specific warning/clue about the conspiracy to murder Jon, but in more prophetic/epic/mythological terms: to Free the King, kill Snow Dead. Jon Snow must die to become king, whether the King of Winter, the Night's King, or simply a Targaryen king.


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Nice quote, Queen B Cersei! I read it, though, not so much as a specific warning/clue about the conspiracy to murder Jon, but in more prophetic/epic/mythological terms: to Free the King, kill Snow Dead. Jon Snow must die to become king, whether the King of Winter, the Night's King, or simply a Targaryen king.

Wow! I never thought of it like that, but that's also very likely. And it also explains the "free" part.

If we look at it that way, then you could also link that theory with what the raven shouted in Jon's last chapter when it said, "King, Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow" just when he was about to meet his killers/stabbers.

In fact, I think I like this theory more.

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Nice quote, Queen B Cersei! I read it, though, not so much as a specific warning/clue about the conspiracy to murder Jon, but in more prophetic/epic/mythological terms: to Free the King, kill Snow Dead. Jon Snow must die to become king, whether the King of Winter, the Night's King, or simply a Targaryen king.

Good catch! I believe that in order to free King Jon Targaryen, First of His name, Jon Snow must die.

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I don't think it's Bloodraven or Bran. I think Joer Mormont was a skinchanger (like the women in his family) and skinchanged the raven while he was alive and his spirit is in it now. What clinched it for me was rereading where the raven calls Jon "king" the first time. I think then the raven is the voice of Joer's unconscious, unconsciously he has worked out R+L=J, he most likely knew Ned and Lyanna, from young, and would know if Ned having a bastard is likely or not. When the raven brings it up from his unconscious Jeor realises it, this is why he gives Jon a strange look. The raven coming out of the kettle during the choosing is Jeor wanting to cast his vote, he had already decided Jon should succeed him before he died.



“King,” croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont’s shoulder. “King,” it said again, strutting back and forth.


“He likes that word,” Jon said, smiling.


“An easy word to say. An easy word to like.”(How does Mormont know which words a raven would find easy to say?)


“King,” the bird said again.


“I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.”


“The realm has three kings already, and that’s two too many for my liking.” Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.It made him feel odd.


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