Game of Thrones Featurette Due February 9

[Le Cygne]

Oh, hell, they brought it up. But look at how many people were happy when the first rescue scene happened in season 2. Playing up the second rescue (which she hopes is Sandor, he's her hero in the books) would be a good visual for the show, too.

So Twitter was spiking pretty hard while Sansa was being tossed about like a rag-doll. And then it basically spiked to Insane. Good bye Twitter. Hello re-start computer.

@JoeBuffaloWins: The hound!!!!

@Kifty1n: AHHHHHHHHHHHHSANDORSANDORSANDORyesyesyes

@karltmeakin: SANDOR CLEGANE: WAR ZONE.

@MercifulMalacai: The Hound is takin a bite outta crime

@cocolicious46: The Hound be killing the SHYT outta bammas!!

@CMR365: I think the Hound just field dressed somebody

@truebloodandtv: Sandor Clegane is such a boss

@mycropht: Yes! The Hound Represent!!!! Rory McCann FTW

@jpglion: Well done, Hound.

So I got back on and the scroll was at a quasi-managable 140 entries per refresh.

Oh, then dude spoke.

@JalinMarieC: Youre alright now little bird, youre alright

And there went my screen again.

@juiimanji: SANSAN. IT IS TV!CANON.

@siriuslyserious: @GameOfRos: Ros is a SanSan fan. #GameOfThrones I think Im becoming one too

@Wee_Birdie: Oh my *fans self*

@LeahMaycock: I do like The Hound. A tortured soul but maybe a good heart?

@LynchLyfe: Awww I think he loves her.

@Wee_Birdie: Totally worth the wait. I may have melted into a small puddle

@lucia_g89: Omg that sansa scene. Im still shaking

@Kiftyln: oh my god how can a burned man be so smexy idk

@suleikhasnyder: I love that Tyrion and the Hound have such care for Sansa. Aw. #yeahishipit

@Paco_ICEandFIRE: HE DID IT FOR LOVE, TYRION! HE DIDNT SAVE SANSA FOR YOU!!!!

The San/San tweets were still off the charts by the time shit calmed down. There was a brief scene between Sansa and Shae

@jmnzl: Shae is being useful?! What.

No one cared. Most of the people were still spazzing out over San/San.

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/05/tweet-sixteen/

[Le Cygne]

Oh, joy, another ages discussion. Westeros is different (see: Dany, Jon, Jeyne, Lyanna, etc.) all of whom were under 16 when they had sex the first time. Both of Dany's men are twice her age or more. And GRRM just wrote a romance for a 16 year old and a 49 year old (The Princess and the Queen). He explained it at the quote above, and this even holds for many modern cultures...

Here's another quote, this is part of analysis, looking at the cultural context of a story:

"And of course, I've done a ton of research about real medieval history. And basically in the middle ages, they did not have our concept of adolescence, of this sort of these sort of teenage years in between where we're kind of adults, but not adults, and we have different ages, where we're allowed to vote at this age, and we're allowed to go to war and die at a different age, and we're allowed to drink at another age, and have sex at a different age, depending on which state we're in, all of that stuff.

"They had child and adult. And the difference between them was the onset of sexual maturity.

"And we still have in our cultures, remnants of this older structure in our ceremonies, the Jewish bar mitzvah, the Catholic confirmation ceremony, which I went through at 13, reaffirming as an adult the vows made for me by my godparents at baptism. The Catholics once considered 13 adulthood... These things are just remnants now, but they weren't remnants in the middle ages, and they're not in the books. They had a very different way of looking at things. So I was using that based on historical precedent."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTTW8M_etko

Fixing the quotes...

[Annara Snow]

SanSan always creeped me out because the Hound is essentially an adult wanting to hook up with a teenager in the SanSan fantasy, right? I mean if he's a sympathetic paedophile, that'd probably give the character some more complexity but I'm not sure I'd like to fantasise about it...lets hope they show LF as apropriately creepy too because I'd hate the viewers starting to ship them...

It's hard to see how LF could possibly not be creepy?! He kisses her against her will and doesn't give a damn when she tells him in no uncertain terms that it's not right and that he shouldn't be doing it. And that's while he is married to her aunt. He sees her as an extension of her mother who he was in love with, and at the same time tells her he could have been her father and fantasies about her being his daughter with Cat. He puts her in a position where she is completely dependent on him and has nowhere to go, therefore he has all the power over her, pretends to be her father. and then keeps asking her to kiss him and criticizes her when she's "dutiful" rather than passionate. He makes her sit on his lap and call him "father" while he's molesting her.

I don't know who would "ship" them, unless it's the same people who would ship Joffrey and Sansa, Craster and his daughters, or Ramsey and Jeyne.

Ok so Sandor's a hebephile then because he distinctly says to Arya that he wished would have had sex with Sansa just before Arya leaves him to die of his wounds. In any case if the shippers are right, he's at least somewhat attracted to women much younger than him.

To one of them. We don't have any evidence that he has been attracted to other much younger women, or that he has never been attracted to women over 20.

Using the same evidence, you could argue that Tyrion is a hebephile, because we know he was sexually attracted to Sansa. But that's clearly not true, since we also know that Tyrion has been attracted to women older than himself, like Septa Mordane. He seems to simply be attracted to every good-looking woman regardless of age, especially if he sees her naked.

[King Tommen]

I hate to wade into this because it's not a topic that is nearly as important a select few are making it out to be, but what specifically do SanSan fans expect to happen there in the books? Is there an assumption that they're going to end up together or he's going to "save" her or something along those lines?

Because I see Sansa being the one to bring down LF and being involved in Winterfell and North and the Hound to end up sacrificing himself to finally be the one to take out his brother when no one else can (I realize this is kind of a trope that Martin often avoids but dramatically, if the Clegane brothers don't finally face off, that's subverting good storytelling for subversion's sake IMO).

But in the event that there is some kind of connection that's eventually going to happen with them, then D&D (who are aware of all the major character final trajectories) would be working to set it up. If however, nothing really happens there and it's more of a Martin subtle diversion that he doesn't really plan on doing anything with, then why would the show even bother to waste time on hinting at a weirdo romance that never comes to be?

S4, for better or worse will probably tell us and after that, I'm hoping that we don't have to hear about it anymore (because honestly, it's tiresome).

[protar]

That was last scene she was talking about the scene where she knocks the guy unconscious before the RW when she had to ride "Stranger"

Apparently when she jumped of the horse she got her foot caught ended up upside down and looking like a fool.

The Hound already mentioned her once to Arya, he might make a comment when he hears about her marriage and/or when Arya and him part ways.

Like Rory said himself, "it's too weird I been out drinking with her parents"

Beric tells him after his trial "go in peace Sandor Clegane, the Lord of Light isn't done with you yet"

During his trial him and his brother are called by Clegane a few times

Thoros says to him "so good to see you again Clegane" at the inn at the crossroads when he rats on Arya.

I'm sure there's other times he's been called it. His brother has been called Clegane quite a few times.

I was mainly talking about his first name. Must have missed it, but I'm pretty sure that's the only instance he's been called Sandor.

[Le Cygne]

I hate to wade into this because it's not a topic that is nearly as important a select few are making it out to be, but what specifically do SanSan fans expect to happen there in the books?

Why don't you just listen to the author? He's answering here, and he hears directly from fans. He know the games that go on in fandoms, the vocal minorities, the hidden agendas, the trashing of characters because they want another pairing instead, and it has nothing to do with the story he's telling.

GRRM: I do know there's all these people out there who are, as they call themselves, the SanSan fans, who want to see Sandor and Sansa get together at the end. So that's interesting, too.

Tom Merritt: The TV show has sort of played with that a little and probably stoked those fires, I would think.

GRRM: Oh, sure. And I've played with it in the books.

Tom Merritt: Yeah, yeah.

GRRM: There's something there. But it's still interesting to see how many people have responded to it.

Veronica Belmont: I'm not going to say that that hasn't crossed my mind.

http://transcriptvids.com/v/_tWg7LPq4nE.html

And if there's something tiresome, why not just scroll past? That's what many of us do.

[King Tommen]

Yeah, I've seen the quote (you like to post it every few weeks, so how could we miss it?). If that's what you're hanging on to, then god bless.

[Annara Snow]

I hate to wade into this because it's not a topic that is nearly as important a select few are making it out to be, but what specifically do SanSan fans expect to happen there in the books? Is there an assumption that they're going to end up together or he's going to "save" her or something along those lines?

I'm sorry, how do you know that it's not important? I think it's just wishful thinking by the select few such as yourself that it should not be important.

As to what SanSan fans expect, I don't know since I didn't poll every single person who identifies as a SanSan, but from what I'm aware, most of them expect the connection between those two characters to be important in the future and to play an important role in Sansa's arc. (How exactly, is something that people have different ideas about. ) Which is, BTW, also the opinion of most people who believe that Martin would not waste three books worth of character development on a relationship and keep addressing it in every Sansa chapter without planning on any sort of payoff, just because he likes to troll the readers. :rolleyes:

And even without seeing how it plays out in the rest of the books, it is already important for both of the characters and their development. It's the reason why the Hound has his major emotional meltdown, gets drunk and badly wounded by dudes he would have otherwise easily killed, "dies" and becomes just Sandor rather than the Hound. It's Sansa's main erotic/romantic fixation while she's in the Vale, it shows how much she has changed from the little girl who crushed on Joffrey and Loras, and it's her emotional shield while LF is trying to groom her. Sandor and LF are polar opposites and it says a lot about what is going on with her.

Because I see Sansa being the one to bring down LF and being involved in Winterfell and North and the Hound to end up sacrificing himself to finally be the one to take out his brother when no one else can (I realize this is kind of a trope that Martin often avoids but dramatically, if the Clegane brothers don't finally face off, that's subverting good storytelling for subversion's sake IMO).

I see Sansa being the one to bring down LF, too, so do, apparently, most Sansa fans. How does that contradict her continuing to have a storyline with Sandor? It's not like "saving her" is the only capacity Sandor can have in her story.

As for "the Hound ending up sacrificing himself to finally be the one to take out his brother", that would be rubbish storytelling, at least if that's all he does. That would mean that four books of character development were for nothing. His relationships with Sansa and Arya would have been for nothing. "The Hound" dying and becoming just Sandor and letting go off what he used to be, would have been for nothing. He would have just been the same guy he was at the start of the first book, whose only desire in life was to kill his brother. And now he wouldn't even get that, since it's not his brother anymore, just his reanimated corpse.

Now, if Sandor's character development, his relationship with Sansa - and with Arya - does not get any kind of payoff in the future books, that would be just subverting good storytelling for the sake of a select few who are trying to ignore the setup and hints in the books because they're just too "creeped out" by the idea of Sandor and Sansa being in the room together, even when she's 16 or 18 or whatever she is by the time the resolution of the books happens, since, oh horror, there may be romantic undertones to their dynamic. I'm sure GRRM will try his best to accommodate you, we've seen how much he's tried not to creep people out with relationships such as Dany/Drogo or Dany/Daario or Nettles/Daemon.

But in the event that there is some kind of connection that's eventually going to happen with them, then D&D (who are aware of all the major character final trajectories) would be working to set it up. If however, nothing really happens there and it's more of a Martin subtle diversion that he doesn't really plan on doing anything with, then why would the show even bother to waste time on hinting at a weirdo romance that never comes to be?

They already did "waste time" on hinting at that "weirdo romance" in the first 2 seasons. Not as much as GRRM did in the books, but they still did.

[Le Cygne]

I quote GRRM because that's the only thing that really matters. He's the author. If you ask a question about anything, he's the one who is going to have the most relevant answer. It doesn't matter to me at all what you "hang onto," it's not at all relevant to me.

[Queen of Whores]

I quote GRRM because that's the only thing that really matters. He's the author. If you ask a question about anything, he's the one who is going to have the most relevant answer. It doesn't matter to me at all what you "hang onto," it's not at all relevant to me.

If none of what anyone but the author says is relevant or matters, there is no point being on a forum at all.

[King Tommen]

And since what the author said can be interpreted in different ways, then it's valid to have differing views about that interpretation.

[Woman of War]

I think nobody doubts that Sandor's infatuation with Sansa enriches his character, makes him more complex, maybe creepier but also deeper and more contradictory. In the books you constantly ask yourself if he will chop her to pieces some day like he did with Mycah or if he will be the one who saves her when it is most needed. In the series there has been no hint so far that he might be a mortal danger to her but if the character is still in the game they have left all options open: fatherly protection as well as sexual infatuation. They haven't excluded any option.

I do not mind any of the sad, hopeless, touching and creepy aspects of that relationship. But it takes a lot from the story if this complex mixture of dangerous and tender impulses is reduced to a conventional love story that cries romance (btw a complete misunderstanding of the literary term. The time of Romantics is about longing and longing alone, not fulfillment). I guess we can exclude that simplification for the show, given the material we have so far.

[Le Cygne]

He's her hero, he saved her life twice and tried a third time, then she thought he was coming to her rescue at the Fingers. The show (and the author) went to a fair amount of trouble to spell out the subtext, you won't hurt me, no, I won't hurt you, can't get any clearer than that.

Let's see, way too much build up in the story for a real kiss not to happen. A pretty straight (but very original) Beauty and the Beast story. He's the only one who really listens to her, and she thinks about him all the time, he's been in every one of her chapters but one, and the author said she's going to remember him in the next book, too.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Ok so Sandor's a hebephile then because he distinctly says to Arya that he wished would have had sex with Sansa just before Arya leaves him to die of his wounds. In any case if the shippers are right, he's at least somewhat attracted to women much younger than him.

Ok to be fair, a lot of guys are. Sansa is an extreme beauty.

Things are different in the books, it's a medieval setting where women of Sansa's age are commonly wedded and bedded. I'm sure most of the men in Kings Landing would have jumped all over the the opportunity for the latter.

[Le Cygne]

They hinted at that on the show, too...

Also this:

D.B. Weiss: The developing relationship between these two...

David Benioff: Yep. Much more to come...

[Maester-in-Training]

I don't understand why SanSan is celebrated by some fans. Sandor is a violent, cruel, deceitful, possibly alcoholic misanthrope with serious psychological issues; he's a giant red flag. To state the obvious, Sansa would be much better off with someone like Willas, who is educated, kind, and also is not the traditional knight in the Florian mold.

The fact that Sansa may have some sexual desire for the Hound strikes me as sad and indicates how profoundly damaged she has been from her experiences. This is way beyond the more typical good-girl-likes-bad-boy scenario. Take Dany and Daario as an example: Daario may be a violent mercenary, but he didn't kill Dany's little sister's friend in cold blood, and he never stood by and watched as Dany's father lost his head.

I have no problems with how SanSan is treated in the books or the show so far, but I'm baffled at the 'shipping.

[Theda Baratheon]

Love that Maisie's favorite character is Cersei! Atta Girl

That was one of my favourite bits of the video :P

[Le Cygne]

That was one of my favourite bits of the video :P

Oh yeah, me, too. And Maisie said she is a Justin Bieber hater on another video, too. Hail, Maisie!

http://www.mtv.co.uk/game-of-thrones/news/game-of-thrones-cast-discuss-if-justin-bieber-were-in-the-show-watch

[Khal-a-bunga]

Oh yeah, me, too. And Maisie said she is a Justin Bieber hater on another video, too. Hail, Maisie!

http://www.mtv.co.uk/game-of-thrones/news/game-of-thrones-cast-discuss-if-justin-bieber-were-in-the-show-watch

She really is fantastic. I'm consistently amazed at how poised and... professional (for lack of a better word) all of these young actors come across in interviews and behind-the-scenes videos. Nina Gold got incredibly lucky assembling so many talented young actors for this show. Even someone with very limited screen-time like Shireen makes an indelible impression on the audience, simply by the virtue of holding their own (surpassing, even, at times) against the much more experienced actors they share the screen with.

[Le Cygne]

This is so perfect, NCW:

"He does something because he’s about loyalty and family and protecting the people he loves. That goes through to what happens with Brienne, I think. The fact he meets this woman is huge for him as he’s forced to spend so much time with her. For the first time, I think, he does something for someone outside his family and risks everything for this woman.

"I think the biggest change is the fact he loses his identify in many ways and has to reevaluate and rediscover himself. That goes back to the scene with Brienne in the bath where he reveals this huge secret that he’s carried since he was sixteen. He tells, of all people, this woman because I think they have connected and he sees himself in her. The big question, of course, is what happens when he gets back to King’s Landing? That’s where we’ll find out what has changed. At the end of season three something has changed but he doesn’t know what it is. I think he surprised himself and doesn’t really know why he went back and rescued Brienne from the bear pit."

http://www.reveal.co.uk/lifestyle/news/a551309/game-of-thrones-nikolaj-coster-waldau-on-jaime-brienne-and-obstacles.html