Jyana Reed

[oursisthefury69]

@brighteyes who knows why he'd mention her in the appendix im not GRRM. You don't have to be a "Arthur and ashara" fan to think there's something fishy already with howland/ashara and nevermind the name Jyanna; and I certainly don't think GRRM is above "lying" about the lineage of an unintroduced character as opposed to a main character

[oursisthefury69]

@Ibben how many crannogmen have you heard from so far that even could have blown her cover to anybody? They're a very isolated people, and who's to say Howland would have to lie to his own people, and that they wouldn't just be loyal enough to not talk about to the outside world, which yet again shouldn't be the biggest task for them of all people

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

I was reading the appendix of ASOS (yeah, I'm odd that way) and I found something interesting.

There is a Jyanna Frey, cousin to Ser Benfrey, whom she married and had 2 children with. Real fishy, isn't it? Who cares if she's listed as Ser Benfrey's cousin, there's definitely something more to it. So I guess this means that she really Lyanna Stark in disguise! Puts a real twist on the "Promise me, Ned," doesn't it ? After all, Jyanna is closer to Lyanna than Jyana. :eek: :rolleyes:

OR it could be that Jyana and Jyanna both are both random names that GRRM made up and gave to 2 different ladies neither of whom are Lyanna or Ashara.

[Mayura]

It is interesting but I mean... Why would Ned and Howland go through the bother of hiding Jon's real parentage while Howland's wife would "adopt" a name that gives it all away... It seems a bit reckless, if Howland indeed brought back Ashara Dayne to Greywater, to have her parading around wearing a name that was willingly formed using the names of Jon and Lyanna in my opinion.

Plus, following that hypothesis, we could also say that Jojen is the contraction of Jon + Benjen, giving an indication Jon is Benjen's son?

I think Howland's wife is called Jyana because it was her birthname. But of course I am not a partisan of the Ashara = Jyana theory, simply because having Ashara hiding in the swamps doesn't have much sense, as then she could not really add more to the story than just being Howland's wife who also happens to know what happened with Jon. I think that, if Ashara is actually not dead, she has to be alive for a specific purpose, other than being the crannogman's wife.

[TheHouseHB]

I think Jyana Reed is Ashara Dayne and am a new believer in Howland + Ashara = Jojen and Meera.

[The_Crannogman]

I think Ashara Dayne is Jyanna Reed for a few reasons.

1) Meera's age. Meera is around the age of Jon and so Howland would of had to have departed quickly from Harrenhal to get back to the Neck and get someone pregnant. He can't have done it before because he was at the Isle of faces. As well as this Howland would have to organise a marriage and impregnate his wife, all the while his friend is raising his banners and Howland is one of them and so he would have to depart quickly.

2)Jojen's illness. We are told Jojen can't breathe mud like his father and sister. If the crannogmen have lived in the Neck for thousands of years then genetically they should be able to cope with the mud. This gives the impression that his mother is someone not from the neck, due to the time restraints on when Meera could be born, Howland had to meet this woman at Harrenhal and either take them back to the neck with him or impregnate them their.

3)Jojen's eyes. Jojen's eyes are described as having become green after his illness. This means that his eye colour had to have been different before the illness and as GRRM mentions the eye colour I think it is worth noting. We know Ashara had noticeable eyes that were violet so perhaps Jojen could have inherited them.

4)Meera's introduction. Meera is introduced as The lady Meera of house Reed, she is introduced before her brother who is simply called her brother Jojen. The only place in Westeros where women are given the same rights as men is Dorne. Ashara is from Dorne and may have insisted on this law being accepted by Howland if she were to marry him. On the other hand it could be because Jojen has seen his death and so the title has passed to Meera. But the point can't just been discounted so easily.

5)The tourney at Harrenhal. In Meera's story many things are noted that have sparked theories, one thing that often gets overlooked it that this is all from Howland Reed's perspective. Howland not only comments on Ashara's beauty but also notes everyone she danced with. This clearly shows he was watching her and implies he was attracted to her.

NOTE: I don't believe we can completely trust the appendix because, as people have already stated, it is just what the Maestars at the citadel believe. We know there is no Maestar at Greywater so it is unlikely at Maestar has seen her directly. Also crannogmen and women naturally stay in the Neck and s she wouldn't have gone to a place where a maestar was, especially considering she may want to remain unknown as she would stand out clearly in comparison to natural crannogmen and women.

[Roddy the Ruin]

Props to MaidenandWarrior for coming up with Howland+Ashara!

[Fool of a Book]

This will sound extremely stupid from someone who's recently discovered his notes about Meera's age being wrong, but still:

Contrary to Catelyn's observation of Robb being the elder, Jon must near-certainly have been born before Robb:

A close look at the events during Robert's rebellion reveals the time between the Catelyn-Eddard wedding to the Sack of King's Landing is about 7 months at the most, but may be less. Jon is born within a fourtnight or a month give-or-take of the Sack.

The order of their namedays as they are occurring in the supposed chronological order in AGoT+ACoK is also contradicting Robb being older than Jon, @Rhaenys_Targaryen has worked out.

I'll see if I can confirm that one with chapters and verses.

ETA for proof:

Robb is 14. The quote

AGoT C 19 Jon III p177

... looks so much past tense that we must take it he no longer is. But he is still 14 as you will soon see. Here is Jon thinking:

followed by

Jon turns 15 in AGoT C 19 Jon III p186

There is an SSM telling us Jon is 8 or 9 months older than Dany. Also in the book:

AGoT C 23 Daenerys III p236

And quite a while later she turns 15, which is exactly one year later:

ACoK C 27 Daenerys II p432

Next we are told that Robb is 15:

ACoK C 31 Catelyn III p484

and he has been 15 for a while but not all year. Allthough it is past tense here, it has been all the time. (In Catelyn II Robb's age - 15 - was repeated no less than four times.)

I also think Jon is older than Robb, and Ned fudged his age to appease Cat's worries about her children's inheritance, and/or for other reasons not yet disclosed.

[Caesar beyond the wall]

I just can't get the following scenario out of my head...

NED: Now that you've given birth to the rightful heir to the iron throne we need to fake your death and hide you for some reason
LYANNA: Yeah sounds like a good idea
NED: You should probably pick a fake name to throw anyone off your scent
LYANNA: Errrr......... Um.... How about... Jyana?
NED: That's fucking brilliant

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I just can't get the following scenario out of my head...

NED: Now that you've given birth to the rightful heir to the iron throne we need to fake your death and hide you for some reason

LYANNA: Yeah sounds like a good idea

NED: You should probably pick a fake name to throw anyone off your scent

LYANNA: Errrr......... Um.... How about... Jyana?

NED: That's fucking brilliant

Hahahahah!

continued:

Maester Dornish: I will send a raven with the name change to the Citadel, so it will not be missing in the Appendices of the books.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I was reading the appendix of ASOS (yeah, I'm odd that way) and I found something interesting.

There is a Jyanna Frey, cousin to Ser Benfrey, whom she married and had 2 children with. Real fishy, isn't it? Who cares if she's listed as Ser Benfrey's cousin, there's definitely something more to it. So I guess this means that she really Lyanna Stark in disguise! Puts a real twist on the "Promise me, Ned," doesn't it ? After all, Jyanna is closer to Lyanna than Jyana. :eek: :rolleyes:

OR it could be that Jyana and Jyanna both are both random names that GRRM made up and gave to 2 different ladies neither of whom are Lyanna or Ashara.

xD Amazing.... There just has to be something about those two ladies :P Can't possibly be a coincidence..

Except for that it most likely is... :D

Hehe.. Awesome find, Wolf Lord's Daughter :)

I think Ashara Dayne is Jyanna Reed for a few reasons.

1) Meera's age. Meera is around the age of Jon and so Howland would of had to have departed quickly from Harrenhal to get back to the Neck and get someone pregnant. He can't have done it before because he was at the Isle of faces. As well as this Howland would have to organise a marriage and impregnate his wife, all the while his friend is raising his banners and Howland is one of them and so he would have to depart quickly.

Meera turns 16 in 299 AC, meaning she was born in 283 AC. That means that she was conceived before Howland joined Neds army. Between Harrenhal and the rebellion somewhat of a year passed. Enough time for Howland to get back to the Neck, marry, get his wife pregnant, and be ready to join Ned once Ned's army reaches the Neck (which happened several months after Brandon and Rickard had died, don't forget).

2)Jojen's illness. We are told Jojen can't breathe mud like his father and sister. If the crannogmen have lived in the Neck for thousands of years then genetically they should be able to cope with the mud. This gives the impression that his mother is someone not from the neck, due to the time restraints on when Meera could be born, Howland had to meet this woman at Harrenhal and either take them back to the neck with him or impregnate them their.

Ehm... That's not exactly how genetics works. Especially not when there's still marriages taking place with people from other parts of the kingdoms...

4)Meera's introduction. Meera is introduced as The lady Meera of house Reed, she is introduced before her brother who is simply called her brother Jojen. The only place in Westeros where women are given the same rights as men is Dorne. Ashara is from Dorne and may have insisted on this law being accepted by Howland if she were to marry him. On the other hand it could be because Jojen has seen his death and so the title has passed to Meera. But the point can't just been discounted so easily.

The only place in the Seven Kingdoms where women are given the same rights as men is in Dorne. When said woman is from Dorne, and is living in Dorne. Even if Ashara was Meera's mother, Meera would be following her fathers laws, the laws of the North. And thus, Jojen comes first in inheritance.

NOTE: I don't believe we can completely trust the appendix because, as people have already stated, it is just what the Maestars at the citadel believe. We know there is no Maestar at Greywater so it is unlikely at Maestar has seen her directly. Also crannogmen and women naturally stay in the Neck and s she wouldn't have gone to a place where a maestar was, especially considering she may want to remain unknown as she would stand out clearly in comparison to natural crannogmen and women.

Well, the Appendixes can't be completely trusted for other reasons as well. There are people who in one appendix are another persons son, while in the next appendix they are that same person's brother... Joffrey also goes from 12 to 13 to being 12 again (after he died, even). And the Glover heir seems to be changing as well, without any explanation given, and without anyone dying.

If the crannogmen have castles, they'll have maesters. Or has it been stated specifically somewhere that Greywater Reach doesn't have a maester? I can't remember..

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I only have one question for this thread. Which is the proper spelling, Jyana or Jyanna?

[Amelyn]

I only have one question for this thread. Which is the proper spelling, Jyana or Jyanna?

They might both be correct, after all they are the names of two different women.

[jarl the climber]

and that would be different if ashara had lived. her tragic death blocked off questioning at large, if she had lived there would be a lot more attention to jon's parentage

Its considered to be bad manners to pry to closely into the parentage of a mans baseborn children. That's why Sansa is posing as a bastard. We are interested in Jons parentage but I don't think Westeros really gives a fig at this point anyway.

[jarl the climber]

Ashara doesn't have to die in order to be a "decoy mother" for Jon. The rumour about Ashara and Ned existed since Harrenhal

Has it? Yes they danced together but as other people have noted it was reported to us that Ashara danced with a number of other people at the feast. Barristan, who was fond of her and knew her kinsmen, who in other words was more in the know, seemed to clearly know that it was her and Brandon, not Ned. I think its more about Ned returning from the South with an infant and Ashara throwing herself from the Tower that suggests the relationship. I'm not even sure if it was even credible that Ned and Ashara even had contact during Robert's Rebellion or that it would even be possible for him to get her pregnant unless she had been at Kings Landing when it was sacked, which is possible and would almost have to be true for the rumors of Wylla or Ashara to have any credibility. While we know from Barristan that Ashara did have a child with Stark it's not clear when this pregnancy occured, at Harrenhal or if they had contact at a later time.

Ned Dayne actually named Wylla as the Mother while insinuating a relationship between Eddard and Ashara. Cersei seems to indicate that the story might have been more widespread but in all likelyhood her source was a servant in Winterfell, who she gave a few coin to while she was in Winterfell with Robert. Robert clearly thought the childs Mother was Wylla or some other commoner so he could not be the source all though he admits to having never seen her. Rumor does seem to trump fact when it comes to this sort of thing.

[jarl the climber]

@ Rhaenys Targaryean

They do not use ravens because the castles move supposedly. Jojen and Meeras relationship with Luwin suggest that they do not use Measters.

[Sword of the Morgan]

If you were Lyanna Stark and going into hiding, would you really pick Jyanna to be your assumed name? Nobody would put that together.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

They might both be correct, after all they are the names of two different women.

Fair point. I meant Meera and Jojen's mother specifically. I'm not sure the spelling makes any difference with regard to the possibility of her being anyone previously mentioned in the story, but I'm curious.