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She-wolves of Winterfell: Analyzing Northern women


Mladen

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This is not my best work for I am really too busy, so please be kind in your criticism :). Nevertheless, with a lot of pride and happiness I present you:

Arya and Sansa: Lyanna Stark's yin and yang

*snip

Mladen this is really a wonderful analysis! As you are aware, I couldn't agree more on the complementarity of Arya's and Sansa's characters. Viewing Lyanna through the lens of her two nieces is a logical next step. I absolutely love the way that you used parallels to the girls to portray Lyanna's Harrenhal story and I couldn't agree more that the parallels to Arya give a clear indication that Lyanna was indeed the KotLT.

Also, the comparisons between Lyanna:Robert:Rhaegar and Sansa:Tyrion:Joffrey>Sandor, though more subtle, are pretty striking. I believe in this case, rather than viewing through the lens backwards, we might be able to project some possible futures for Sansa, though we hope that her outcome is happier.

But this parallel to Sansa:

Quote

“You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert,” Ned told him. “You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath.”

Quote

My skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel.

...truly took my breath away. We share a mutual admiration for Sansa, and to see her compared here in such a clear way to her aunt, who was arguably one of the strongest female characters (though so little is known of her in truth) is one of the best in story Sansa parallels I've seen.

Well done, my friend! :cheers:

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Brilliant analysis.



The interesting thing is that Arya's similarity to Lyanna is specifically called out , more than once, by more than one character. And when things are shown to us so clearly in the text, they are usually hiding something else. And I think that on a deeper level Lyanna is not so much like Arya, and is much more than apparently seems like Sansa.



There are a couple more important points where I think Lyanna is more like Sansa:


KOLT is one. while on the surface it seems like this is is more of an Arya like behavior (acting like a boy, fighting the arrogant squires in favor of the weaker crannogman) , this is misleading. Posing as a mystery knight, fighting to protect the weak fits much more with Sansa's view of the world, than Arya's. While Sansa is not a fighter herself, she is definitely the one to be charmed by such a story. Arya would more likely hit them in their sleep and smash something over their heads....



The second one is the effect that Sansa and Lyanna has on the men they meet. While Arya is said to look like Lyanna she does succeed (or tries) to charm the men she interacts with. Not even Gendry who she obviously likes.


Sansa on the other hand has a charming effect on men, including tough guys like the hound, and even the cunning LF.


Lyanna has similar effect on Rhaegar and Robert who are willing not only to fight and die for her but also bring ruin to their families and followers.


It should be noted that Arya is younger, and everything to do with her relationship to men is effected by that. However, while it is possible that a 15 years Arya would be more like Lyanna , it does not seem as this is the direction in which she is growing.



The third one is their priorities between love and family. Both Sansa and Lyanna choose their lover, over their family with horrible consequences. And while Rhaegar is said to be a much better man than Joffery , Lyanna remains with him and carries his child after his father has killed her family , during a war that was caused because of that and even when Rhaegar goes to kill her brother, while Sansa falls for Joffrey before she learns the consequences for her family.


Arya for example is very unlikely to forget her family for love.


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This is not my best work for I am really too busy, so please be kind in your criticism :)

Please, give us more "not your best works", for this one truly was amazing.

You know how one of Boardology laws was: When poster X posts, there's not much you can say except "I agree", "What X said" or "This" ? That's exactly my feeling now. I'll just say I enjoyed reading parallels between Stark girls, including many subtle ones which eluded me till now.

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Not sure about the men charming thingy. Arya was just NINE when the story started are far too young to even have the beginning of awareness of sexuality. Sansa was an 11 year old steeped in stories and well aware of the role girls play, even if until she met Sandor it was pretty much story book.



Arya NOW is about 12 so in the next book we should see her transform from a tomboy into a young lady, with all the boys agog, as she reaches puberty.


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It's also worth noting that on the show, Maisie is blossoming into a striking young woman.



I think Arya and Sansa are both growing into beauties-just their charms are very different as are their personalities-but they're two sides of the same coin.


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Another very important parallel between Lyanna and Sansa is in fact how they responded to the husbands others chose for them. We know from Ned’s testimony that Lyanna wasn’t very much into Robert:

We can of course only speculate about whether the love for Rhaegar was the sole reason of her escaping or whether she also wanted to escape from the match her family made for her. One thing is certain. Perhaps not publically, but Lyanna certainly rejected Robert. Something very similar happened to Sansa during her wedding with Tyrion. She did it two times: when she refused to kneel in front of him making rather public statement about how she feels, which also goes very much into account of Starks being not kneelers, and second time was when she undoubtedly explained Tyrion that she might never want him. Wounded pride was the natural reaction for both men, as both Robert and Tyrion were rather hurt by what Lyanna and Sansa did to them respectively.

I think somewhere in the Sansa PTP thread, I think this was discussed too, in relation to Sansa's betrothal to Harry the Heir. Littlefinger is assuming that Sansa will be eager for marrying the handsome, dashing young heir, but Sansa is familiar with the fact that Harry's fathered a bastard or two already. Like Lyanna, she may not want to be with a man who cannot be faithful to a woman or be there for the children he creates. Sansa would not know of Lyanna's misgivings regarding Robert, but she might react the same way regarding marrying Harry.

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Thank you all for the lovely replies and words of support. I am so pleased you liked the piece and I am rather humbled with some of the replies here...






The interesting thing is that Arya's similarity to Lyanna is specifically called out , more than once, by more than one character. And when things are shown to us so clearly in the text, they are usually hiding something else. And I think that on a deeper level Lyanna is not so much like Arya, and is much more than apparently seems like Sansa.





The thing about this essay and Lyanna in general is that I don't think that this is zero sum game. As Lady Gwyn said, through complementarity of Sansa's and Arya's storylines, we can see Lyanna much clearer. So, I wouldn't say that Lyanna is closer to one girl more than to another, for there are some striking oppositions to both girls, just as there are some striking parallels. Lyanna's nature opposes Sansa as much as her femininity opposes Arya. But, given that parallels with Arya are called out in rather undeniable way, people somehow forgotten how similar and striking parallel is between what Lyanna did with Rhaegar and what Sansa did with Joffrey. Naturally, that seals the story that Sansa is not "true Stark"(idiocy some people like to repeat ad nauseum) given that Lyanna has been explicitly named "she-wolf". So, overall, this essay did emphasized the parallels with Sansa for they are more nuanced, but I truthfully believe that Lyanna is somewhere between Arya and Sansa.





There are a couple more important points where I think Lyanna is more like Sansa



I read through your parallels and I think everything is covered. The beauty aspect with the "iron beneath the beauty" and "porcelain, ivory, steel" quotes, and love over family aspect in comparison between Joffrey and Rhaegar. Now, interesting idea is KoLT aspect. I would have to disagree with you here, for her defense of Howland truly depicts what Sansa would have done, or what she did with Dontos, but taking the armor and fighting at the tourney rejecting all the norms, that is something Arya would have done.






I think somewhere in the Sansa PTP thread, I think this was discussed too, in relation to Sansa's betrothal to Harry the Heir. Littlefinger is assuming that Sansa will be eager for marrying the handsome, dashing young heir, but Sansa is familiar with the fact that Harry's fathered a bastard or two already. Like Lyanna, she may not want to be with a man who cannot be faithful to a woman or be there for the children he creates. Sansa would not know of Lyanna's misgivings regarding Robert, but she might react the same way regarding marrying Harry.






Yeah, I remember that discussion and I agree with you. We know that marrying Alayne to Harry probably won't work due to plan being laid out in front of us like that, but in the equation, I don't know who would be Sansa's Rhaegar. Sandor is most likely choice, but overall there are many things that we don't know about Harry, so we can only wait and see. Also, it should be noted that there might be some conspiracy going on in Vale, just as there are strong indications something was going on in Harrenhal.

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This is not my best work for I am really too busy, so please be kind in your criticism :). Nevertheless, with a lot of pride and happiness I present you:

Arya and Sansa: Lyanna Stark's yin and yang

The story of Lyanna Stark and the truth about what truly happened to her have eluded the readers for the five installments of ASOIAF. From the secretive story about Knight of the laughing tree and suspicious kidnapping that arguably triggered the Rebellion that ended Targaryen reign to the mysterious parenthood of a bastard boy who is generally accepted as her son, nothing about Lyanna is certain and thus easily conclusive. So, to analyze who she really was, not only that we have to walk through the dark path of secrets and symbols, but also to guess and make some conclusions on our own. The truth about Lyanna Stark will have to wait for the next installments, and even then there is a slight chance we won’t know what truly happened 17 years prior to the current events.

What we know about Lyanna Stark came from the only man that appeared in the books who knew her – her brother Ned. And although Ned is not the most reliable source in these matters, in lack of other intelligence, we have to rely on some of his assessments and what he told about her. But, those small pieces of information are just the beginning, for this work will dwell on symbols and pieces of foreshadowing, some clues and literary parallels to go deeper in analyzing Lyanna and making some parallels with her character. At the end, it is my intention to show you, that although Arya is mostly compared to Lyanna, Lyanna actually represents the literary intersection between Ned’s two daughters.

The description of Lyanna Stark has always been rather interesting. The only daughter of Lord Rickard Stark was objectively quite the beauty, but below the feminine exteriority was hiding independent, willful and stubbornly uncompromising woman. Ned’s own description of Lyanna, although brotherly bias can be taken as accurate: a touch of wolf blood, iron beneath the beauty. Lyanna, just as her niece Arya, also had some odd interests, or at least odd for the women in society they lived. But unlike Arya who was allowed to pursue her interests, Lyanna wasn’t that lucky, for her father didn’t allow it. The comparison with Arya doesn’t end there. Ned explicitly says that Arya reminds him of Lyanna, and that they even share the looks and Harwin compared her riding with Lyanna’s in ASOS. The story about Knight of the laughing tree (for future reference, KoLT) also makes some striking parallels with Arya, as she-wolf protects the young crannogman from the abusive squires, wonderfully paralleling Arya’s defense of Mycah. So, we have two Stark women of similar looks, same blood and interests, even the same temper. Naturally, the parallels between two of them are easy to make, and they are never questioned. And if that is the Lyanna’s whole story, we would all be satisfied, but alas, it isn’t. And just as some events of Lyanna’s life complement her nature perfectly, the other daughter of Ned Stark complements her sister. For, perhaps in the union of the two sisters – both Arya and Sansa, we can find out who Lyanna genuinely was. For that we now have to embark on journey through the labyrinth of pieces of foreshadowing, hidden clues and symbols and with some conclusion we can make, also make some other parallels.

As I told, here we have to start concluding on our own. Harrenhal tourney and Tower of joy events are rather secretive, but through the story of Reed children about little crannogman and knight who saved him, Ned Stark’s memories and thoughts of some events, general opinion about Rhaegar, symbolism of the blue rose and the story about Bael the Bard, the pieces of that puzzle are coming together and truth is after all, not that elusive.

Let we start of what we know about Harrenhal tourney. From the Reed story, we know Lyanna was present there. We know how she defended the young Howland Reed, and we know how she cried during Rhaegar’s singing. This is rather striking contrast to the niece everyone’s comparing her to:

The emotional reaction on singing Lyanna demonstrated obviously is not something anyone would expect of Arya. Truth be told, we don’t know what Rhaegar had been singing about, but one thing is certain – it touched Lyanna’s heart. And regardless whether it is song about some past lovers like Florian and Jonquil, or some heroic poem about Doom of Valyria or even the song he composed about Summerhal tragedy (quick derail crackpot: perhaps that’s the song Tom has sung to Ghost of High Heart?), the fact is that Lyanna enjoyed it and that song evoked some emotions. Between two sisters, the one that is more into songs would be Sansa. Naturally, one has also to point out the possibility of flawed comparison. Perhaps Lyanna was just into Rhaegar and not song at all, but we should also add that, if she was indeed into Rhaegar, the comparison with Sansa is even more striking. For falling in love with a prince you know nothing about isn’t Arya’s type of story.

The second piece of undeniable truth is Lyanna’s protection of Howland Reed. The protecting the weak and defenseless is something both Ned’s daughters did in separate occasions. The prime example for Arya is Mycah and her defense against Crown Prince. The same M.O. can be seen through her wanderings through Riverlands when she in several occasions identifies with the commonfolk and sympathize with them. On the other hand, Sansa also shows that side in many occasions. First one is the Dontos situation when she instinctively reacted to protect the foolish knight. Sansa’s resounding “You can’t” comes from the very same place as Lyanna’s defense for Howland or Arya’s for Mycah. The situations naturally don’t mirror each other, but the will and determination behind them shouldn’t be easily disregarded.

And of course the last fact we know about Lyanna and Harrenhal is of course Rhaegar’s crowning. Rhaegar, for some mysterious reasons, crowned Lyanna as Queen of love and beauty after winning the tourney. Needless to say, this piece can’t be connected in any way with Arya, but Sansa was also someone who was honored with a rose during the tourney. Sansa was given red rose by Ser Loras in his semifinal match with Mountain at Hand’s tourney. Although the victor of the tourney was never crowned, Ser Loras did name Sandor Clegane as the champion. That very same night, Sandor told Sansa very important piece of his past thus, perhaps in a way like Rhaegar did with Lyanna, showed his interest in Sansa.

So, all three motifs – the song, the defense of the weak and the crowning can be in different ways related to both Sansa and Arya. Now, with the help of some hidden clues and pieces of foreshadowing we will continue on unknown possible parallels between Lyanna and Ned’s daughters. First one is identity of KoLT and the second is Lyanna’s romantic involvement with Rhaegar.

The identity of Knight of laughing tree is one of the most debatable topics on the boards. Mostly people agree that it was Lyanna under the helmet, but there are other viable candidates like Howland or Benjen. For the purpose of this essay and out of personal belief, I will make logical leap and make a premise that Lyanna was indeed KoLT.

If Lyanna was indeed KoLT, the story has Arya’s parallels all over it. There is not one person here who would say that Arya wouldn’t pull something like that, especially having Mycah incident in mind. Challenging three squires to defend the honor of someone who can’t do it by themselves, doing something only boys are supposed to do and thus rejecting the feminine role she is predisposed in the world she is living, well, that does sound a lot like Arya. We shouldn’t forget that Arya is someone who deliberately went against all rules when she defended Mycah, something Lyanna would have done as KoLT. Even the mistaken identity of Arya as a boy parallels Lyanna’s possible ability to pose as a man, and we should also remember Harwin’s words about how she rode like her aunt Lyanna. So, if KoLT was indeed Lyanna, the story makes strong and powerful connection with Arya, not only in looks, interests and temper, but on much profound level of how both girls acted the same in very similar situations.

The other mystery surrounding Lyanna is her questionable involvement with Rhaegar. Was it love or rape? Who was right, Robert or those who trusted Rhaegar? Well, the parallel for this story, the one that gives us clues of what might have happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna is the story of Bael the Bard and symbolism of blue winter rose. And just as in the story of Bael and Stark daughter, blue rose is connected with the forbidden love and eloping from the world, Rhaegar’s crown of blue winter roses also symbolized love and beauty. It should also be noted that Lyanna held the crown of dead flowers in her hands when Ned found her. All of this led many people, myself included, that Robert’s “official” version is nothing more than one man’s attempt to negate the truth, and that Lyanna indeed loved Rhaegar and escaped with him so she wouldn’t marry Robert.

The premise is rather clear and I won’t spend more time explaining it since you must have read all about it. But, more importantly for this debate is whom does this story reminds you of? Arya? Not for a second. For, as prepubescent Arya said once reacting on Ned Dayne’s story “love is stupid”. Childish reaction, without any doubt, but enough to make it clear that parallels with Lyanna stops here. So, we have Stark daughter who fell in love in the Crown Prince she objectively knew nothing about and eloped with him on the damage of her own family. For this one, we should turn to Sansa, who basically did the same. Now, we can all argue that Rhaegar is not Joffrey that he was kind and good and gentle, but at the end, both girls did the same. There is no big difference in what they or in the consequences of their actions. Lyanna blindly followed her heart and arguably she was luckier with Rhaegar than Sansa was with Joffrey, but striking parallels between their actions talks a lot about how Sansa truly is a Stark daughter, and how many parallels is there between her and some Stark family members.

Another very important parallel between Lyanna and Sansa is in fact how they responded to the husbands others chose for them. We know from Ned’s testimony that Lyanna wasn’t very much into Robert:

We can of course only speculate about whether the love for Rhaegar was the sole reason of her escaping or whether she also wanted to escape from the match her family made for her. One thing is certain. Perhaps not publically, but Lyanna certainly rejected Robert. Something very similar happened to Sansa during her wedding with Tyrion. She did it two times: when she refused to kneel in front of him making rather public statement about how she feels, which also goes very much into account of Starks being not kneelers, and second time was when she undoubtedly explained Tyrion that she might never want him. Wounded pride was the natural reaction for both men, as both Robert and Tyrion were rather hurt by what Lyanna and Sansa did to them respectively.

The last parallel between Lyanna and Ned’s elder daughter can be made between two descriptions:

Two great beauties Lyanna and Sansa are, also have a lot underneath the beautiful face. Although Lyanna is considered, just as Arya, harsher in terms of being stubborn, willful and strong-opinionated, thing is that Sansa isn’t far from that description. After the traumatic experience with Ned’s death and constant beating, Sansa, although compassionate and gentle girl, has also become much stronger and sometimes colder. And iron or steel underneath the beautiful face and body is something that characterizes both women.

Just as the yin and yang are opposite but complementary forces of universe, Arya and Sansa represent two faces of Lyanna. Denying one is actually denying Lyanna’s story in complete, for without one, the other part of Lyanna wouldn’t be possible. Lyanna’s story surpasses Sansa’s romantic soul or Arya’s wild nature, coexisting somewhere between, being at the same time both and none of two of Ned's girls.

Nice theory, I already have thought about that too. :)

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Great essay, Mladen.

Nice. Great comparisons. I totally agree.

On marriages though IMO we can make a parallel to Arya in the way that Lyanna considered her match and her reaction.

Arya's youthful, willful behavior is mirrored to Lyanna, as you made many great parallels. Sansa is dutiful more than Lyanna and Arya, and approaches both matches made for her as so. Even though she objected to the marriage and bedding with Tyrion, and showed defiance, she did consent as was her duty. I can't help but think if Arya had been made a match that was unsatisfactory to her, as Lyanna felt Robert, that she would be thinking of a way out of it, rather than succumbing to her duty to marry the man chosen. Maybe it wouldn't have been running off to marry the handsome kind prince who sings so lovely, that much is definitely Sansa. Lyanna, if she was not kidnapped, is embodying Sansa's romanticism, and Arya's rebellious nature (in a thoughtful way) in her choice to disappear with Rheagar.

No, not really. Sansa didn't "succumb to duty". She succumbed to threats. She tried to run away and was told in no uncertain terms by Cersei that she would be dragged to the altar and forced into the marriage and the bedding, and two KG knights were there to do exactly that. Sansa never felt any "duty" to the Lannisters or to Tyrion. She didn't "consent" to anything, because she had no choice and nobody was asking her for a consent to the marriage. She didn't choose anything, she was forced, because she was a hostage. It''s only Tyrion who believed that Sansa was "dutiful", because he doesn't really know her at all; she wasn't being dutiful, she was being cold and reserved, using her courtesy armor while trying to survive, physically and emotionally.

If anyone believed that she felt any "duty" to her "husband", even though it was clear from her own POV chapters that she did not, the fact that she feels zero obligation to that "marriage" after running away from KL and thinks of it as nothing but "a mockery of a marriage" proves otherwise,

Not sure about the men charming thingy. Arya was just NINE when the story started are far too young to even have the beginning of awareness of sexuality. Sansa was an 11 year old steeped in stories and well aware of the role girls play, even if until she met Sandor it was pretty much story book.

Arya NOW is about 12 so in the next book we should see her transform from a tomboy into a young lady, with all the boys agog, as she reaches puberty.

Yeah, it's too early to talk about Arya's sexuality or her feminine charms or lack of them, since she has been a pre-pubescent child so far, and is only starting to enter puberty now, or is about to enter it. She was hardly going to be trying to "charm" men at 9. But, even without her trying, she's received some sexual attention from unknown men (like the sailors shouting obcenities at her or the creepy dude at the inn in ASOS) and the Kindly Man finds her pretty and thinks she could grow up to be a courtesan famed for her beauty one day if she chose so. She will never be ladylike, but there are hints that she will grow up to be attractive.

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There are a couple more important points where I think Lyanna is more like Sansa:

KOLT is one. while on the surface it seems like this is is more of an Arya like behavior (acting like a boy, fighting the arrogant squires in favor of the weaker crannogman) , this is misleading. Posing as a mystery knight, fighting to protect the weak fits much more with Sansa's view of the world, than Arya's. While Sansa is not a fighter herself, she is definitely the one to be charmed by such a story. Arya would more likely hit them in their sleep and smash something over their heads....

Well, given that Sansa said Arya was acting like an ignorant bog woman in AGoT I could see Arya being friends with Howland before I could see Sansa.

The difference is that Arya was not interested in the tourney. That's more Sansa. Lyanna beat up the squires. That's Arya.

The second one is the effect that Sansa and Lyanna has on the men they meet. While Arya is said to look like Lyanna she does succeed (or tries) to charm the men she interacts with. Not even Gendry who she obviously likes.

Sansa on the other hand has a charming effect on men, including tough guys like the hound, and even the cunning LF.

Lyanna has similar effect on Rhaegar and Robert who are willing not only to fight and die for her but also bring ruin to their families and followers.

It should be noted that Arya is younger, and everything to do with her relationship to men is effected by that. However, while it is possible that a 15 years Arya would be more like Lyanna , it does not seem as this is the direction in which she is growing.

Is this even true that Lyanna charms men?

LF probably knew Catelyn better than Robert did Lyanna so it's more believable that Catelyn charmed him. I bet Robert would not actually like Lyanna's personality. In AGoT he said Lyanna would have allowed him to do something Cersei was saying no to but Ned said no she wouldn't and you barely knew her but only saw her beauty. His obsession with her has little to do with charm and more to do with putting her on a pedestal that she does not measure up to. IMO, she's only up there because she died.

Robert did not rebel for Lyanna. Jon Arryn did because Aerys wanted him dead. Oh, and he also screwed the entire Peach while as far he knew his fiance was being raped.

Rhaegar indeed may have been charmed by her.

But that's it.

Barriston was interested in Ashara not Lyanna. Oberyn has never mentioned Lyanna. Jamie just said she had a cunt and a pretty face but we all know it was Cersei he was charmed by for most of his life. Kevan dismissed Lyanna for Cersei and loves his wife. Howland liked her but it's never indicated as more than a friend. We never hear of any other men having interest in her.

The third one is their priorities between love and family. Both Sansa and Lyanna choose their lover, over their family with horrible consequences. And while Rhaegar is said to be a much better man than Joffery , Lyanna remains with him and carries his child after his father has killed her family , during a war that was caused because of that and even when Rhaegar goes to kill her brother, while Sansa falls for Joffrey before she learns the consequences for her family.

Arya for example is very unlikely to forget her family for love.

No but while she may leave the FM it's interesting that she is picking something over family. The FM told her that she would never have a family if she stayed with them and said no to marriage options where she could one day create a family like her parents did and even before she got there she did not want to have a family. She picked death (killing) over life (family).

I do think Sansa is more likely to pick a male over family. She still liked Joffrey even though he tried to kill Arya but I don't see her wanting a married prince with two infant children.

Arya would not want him period but that's mainly because she's not clearly into males as of yet if she will be in the future.

Also I think given time to mature I could see Arya developing a sense of her feminine self we see in Lyanna. I could see her more as a Lyanna type character, beauty with iron underneath, rather than a Brienne type, ugly and strong and masculine. She is called beautiful by Lady Smallwood when dressed up, and gets some affection from Gendry as well. If she was, say 13 or 14, that attention may have inspired a different reaction from her, probably ending with a smooch.

Well, Arya was never physically like Brienne even though Catelyn described them somewhat similarly. She was never strong and was petite.

Although I think facially she may be masculine (in a boyish not manly way) since Maisie dresses like a boy on the show but still manages to look like a girl while real Arya did not.

However, her looks don't matter as much in the following books if she's going to be wearing disguises and who knows for how long she'll be doing that.

It's also worth noting that on the show, Maisie is blossoming into a striking young woman.

I think she's "interesting" looking. Maisie does not have Arya's physical features though except for brown hair. Her face is round and IIRC she doesn't have the same eye color. She's still good as Arya though.

Anyways, another parallel is that Arya also showed an interest in flowers:

"When we were crossing the Neck, I counted thirty-six flowers I never saw before, and Mycah showed me a lizard-lion."

"One day she came back grinning her horsey grin, her hair all tangled and her clothes covered in mud, clutching a raggedy bunch of purple and green flowers for Father…he…thanked her for the flowers…Then it turned out the purple flowers were called poison kisses, and Arya got a rash on her arms."

It should be noted that Arya is younger, and everything to do with her relationship to men is effected by that. However, while it is possible that a 15 years Arya would be more like Lyanna , it does not seem as this is the direction in which she is growing.

In AGoT, Ned warned Arya not to end up like Lyanna and Brandon. We'll see.

I think Ned compared her to Lyanna because they were both female but Brandon was the better comparison. He brought Lyanna up because of Mycah. But Arya attacking Joffrey was more similar to Brandon wanting Rhaegar dead than Lyanna running off with Rhaegar. Brandon's solution to a problem was to kill. That is often Arya's solution. The problem is if someone else kills them first.

ETA: To clarify Arya's first response to Joffrey wasn't to kill. It was self defense but both Brandon and Arya wanted to harm a crown prince and they both foolishly wanted to help a family member (although this was in later instances for Arya) even if it would get them killed. Aerys might have burned Brandon anyway even if Brandon had not tried. But the point was that Arya learned through her experiences to have a kill first response which seems to be Brandon like. It was Catelyn who told him to spare LF. & I took Barbery's tale as a double meaning that he liked killing. Catelyn also mentioned him having wild rages. So while Arya is not becoming more like Lyanna. Maybe that's Sansa. She is more like Brandon in actions.

As far as her seeming to go down a different path when it comes to men it seems Arya is very different from both of the women she's compared to in that respect Catelyn and Lyanna and Sansa is the one more likely. Sansa is the one more likely to love someone and have children.

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In AGoT, Ned warned Arya not to end up like Lyanna and Brandon. We'll see.

I think Ned compared her to Lyanna because they were both female but Brandon was the better comparison. He brought Lyanna up because of Mycah. But Arya attacking Joffrey was more similar to Brandon wanting Rhaegar dead than Lyanna running off with Rhaegar. Brandon's solution to a problem was to kill. That is often Arya's solution. The problem is if someone else kills them first.

ITA. Arya is more Brandon's niece than Ned's daughter-the wolf blood came out very VERY strongly in her. (Probably in Rickon too, but that's another thread.)

Sansa is always compared to Cat, because she looks the most like her, but character wise, she's clearly Ned's child. Iron clad self control, cool, yet compassionate, strong sense of duty, and dedication to socially proscribed roles...its just that her socially proscribed role is that of a Lady in a medieval society rather than a Lord.

I wish I knew more about Lyanna to see which side of the family she took after, but I suspect she had a little of Brandon's hot-headedness in her too.

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Great essay, Mladen.

Yeah, it's too early to talk about Arya's sexuality or her feminine charms or lack of them, since she has been a pre-pubescent child so far, and is only starting to enter puberty now, or is about to enter it. She was hardly going to be trying to "charm" men at 9. But, even without her trying, she's received some sexual attention from unknown men (like the sailors shouting obcenities at her or the creepy dude at the inn in ASOS) and the Kindly Man finds her pretty and thinks she could grow up to be a courtesan famed for her beauty one day if she chose so. She will never be ladylike, but there are hints that she will grow up to be attractive.

Thanks, Annara.

I would agree on this. I do believe that Arya wouldn't grow up into Brienne-type of woman but something rather more appealing. There was a thread about Arya's beauty and my opinion about the subject that Arya is certainly just a child and that, as you said, is too early to give any sort of assessments on that. Also, perhaps Arya would grow up in some Lyanna/Catelyn-type of woman (I know Cat is considered to be beautiful, but she said that Sansa is more beautiful than she ever was, so Catelyn might be considered the beautiful, but not uber-goodlooking woman), being ordinarily beautiful, but not some great image of beauty.

I think Ned compared her to Lyanna because they were both female but Brandon was the better comparison. He brought Lyanna up because of Mycah. But Arya attacking Joffrey was more similar to Brandon wanting Rhaegar dead than Lyanna running off with Rhaegar. Brandon's solution to a problem was to kill. That is often Arya's solution. The problem is if someone else kills them first.

As far as her seeming to go down a different path when it comes to men it seems Arya is very different from both of the women she's compared to in that respect Catelyn and Lyanna and Sansa is the one more likely. Sansa is the one more likely to love someone and have children.

I also agree on the fact that Arya is more like Brandon than like Lyanna. And I also think you have a point about Arya learning how to control her rage and how not to become Brandon. After all, as her father told her, "wolf blood led them to death" This can be either rather dark foreshadowing for Arya, or simple warning for her to have in mind.

And lastly, the very point of Arya not taking Lyanna's road and striking differences between them is why Lyanna is synthesis of two Stark girls.

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As far as Arya I don't think the sailors mean much. Sam described her in his POV as a creature. He wasn't sure what he was looking at. She's dirty, stinks, and has terrible hair. She also has a child like physique. I don't think the sailors wanted her because she was attractive. She's not attractive as Cat.

Dareon hit on Lanna who was around her age and according to Arya is pretty but was not interested in her. Arya has spent time around males but is not interested in them and none of them show an interest in her that is beyond friendly.

I don't think she's going to be like Catelyn. Catelyn seems full figured. Arya is petite and since Theon called Lyanna waifish in the flashback I could see her always being thin with not much going on. It would be weird for her to be given a Catelyn or worse Visenya/Arianne body type. Catelyn is tall. Arya is growing taller but I don't think she'll ever be tall. Maisie is also extremely short. Catelyn has nice hair. Arya is currently bald and seems to prefer that than taking care of her hair. Catelyn also made sure she dressed nice. Maintenance goes a long way.

Catelyn was described as beautiful maybe. LF said she was her queen of love and beauty. Arya was described as ugly, plain, and pretty in the books. She also wouldn't be like Catelyn since Catelyn grew up being the better looking sister. Although Lysa in comparison was never teased for her looks and was also pretty but that has a lot to do with self confidence which also helps looks.

ETA: Thinking on it perhaps Sarella/Alleras Sand is more likely. It's very androgynous which would fit with a slim body and short hair. Lyanna is depicted in the fandom in dresses, long hair, and with flowers in it. Catelyn has long hair and wears dresses. Arya is uncomfortable in dresses, is usually dressed like she's poor, and has never had long hair in the series. Her hair continuously gets cut until it was ultimately shaved in favor of wigs which is better since she had lice and fleas. Since arriving in Braavos she bathes more but I don't know if it's consistently given how she looks as Cat. She doesn't like bathing. It could be because of her age or due to her lack of interest in taking care of herself in that way. Plus, Arya is also in hiding. It would be easier for Catelyn/Lyanna to be regarded as beautiful.

For example, in AGoT she complained that her hair was lusterless in comparison to the Tully hair. IMO, it looks bad because it is hardly ever washed or combed not because it's brown. I've seen luscious brown hair.


I also agree on the fact that Arya is more like Brandon than like Lyanna. And I also think you have a point about Arya learning how to control her rage and how not to become Brandon. After all, as her father told her, "wolf blood led them to death" This can be either rather dark foreshadowing for Arya, or simple warning for her to have in mind.

And lastly, the very point of Arya not taking Lyanna's road and striking differences between them is why Lyanna is synthesis of two Stark girls.

Well, she already is like him. It's just that Ned was saying to stop disobeying and being so willful so she does not end up dead like Lyanna especially and Brandon.

ITA. Arya is more Brandon's niece than Ned's daughter-the wolf blood came out very VERY strongly in her. (Probably in Rickon too, but that's another thread.)

Sansa is always compared to Cat, because she looks the most like her, but character wise, she's clearly Ned's child. Iron clad self control, cool, yet compassionate, strong sense of duty, and dedication to socially proscribed roles...its just that her socially proscribed role is that of a Lady in a medieval society rather than a Lord.

I wish I knew more about Lyanna to see which side of the family she took after, but I suspect she had a little of Brandon's hot-headedness in her too.

I don't think it's only a wolf blood thing. That has to do with wildness. Rickon gets compared to Brandon because he is male I think but Arya is more like him.

Arya is like him in some of the same ways that she is like Lyanna. I.E. the horseriding, long face with grey eyes, and willfullness. The other things are like the foul language they used and love for their respective swords.

She is different to him too. He was a player. This is N/A but even prematurely she has little interest in the opposite sex (Gendry is the only possibility and there are no other examples since) and Brandon seemed to have a lot. He's proof that wolves mate for life doesn't have to apply to Starks. I doubt he would have been faithful to Catelyn. He was prepared to do his duty although Barbrey (who could be wrong) said he didn't want to. Arya was not and she is currently with a group that would never allow it. Lyanna was the one who did not do her duty.

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I don't have the time to read all these posts at the moment but I simply cannot resist making a quick post expressing my absolute joy that such a thread exists.



Northern women are my favorite part about the North (probably because they screw with the false gender dichotomy and sexism so much with their fierce masculinity or assertive femininity) and appreciation for Northern women is always amazing.


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This is N/A but even prematurely she has little interest in the opposite sex (Gendry is the only possibility and there are no other examples since) and Brandon seemed to have a lot. He's proof that wolves mate for life doesn't have to apply to Starks. I doubt he would have been faithful to Catelyn. He was prepared to do his duty although Barbrey (who could be wrong) said he didn't want to. Arya was not and she is currently with a group that would never allow it.

Now I'm thinking about how Arya's dire wolf Nymeria tears the throat out of any other wolf who tries to mount her.

And actually, I visited wolves at Yellowstone and while the vast majority of wolves do mate for life, every now and then you get a loner who does uh...play the field a bit. They were keeping track of one wolf named "Romeo" who was famous for courting all the female wolves from different packs.

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Now I'm thinking about how Arya's dire wolf Nymeria tears the throat out of any other wolf who tries to mount her.

And actually, I visited wolves at Yellowstone and while the vast majority of wolves do mate for life, every now and then you get a loner who does uh...play the field a bit. They were keeping track of one wolf named "Romeo" who was famous for courting all the female wolves from different packs.

That could be a power thing since with wolves the mating pair are the alphas. I'm not sure if in the series if the wolves are meant to parallel the owners because then maybe Ghost was getting busy too while he was away but who knows.

LOL, that's funny. She also has a feline connection in her storyline but again it's N/A. They're known to be promiscuous.

Hmm, Catelyn was a "cat" but she mated for life like a wolf.

Maybe it does have to do with loner behavior because I saw this:

Cats are Noisy Promiscuous About Sex

Cats are noisy, promiscuous and enthusiastic about sex.

There are sound biological reasons for such torrid behavior, all of which derive from the cat's natural ecological niche of lone hunter.

Sociable species, such as humans, dogs, or domesticated livestock, have ideal mating circumstances: males are constantly available.

Cats, however, evolved as lone hunters with individual territories, and when a female comes into season it is possible that to males will be in the vicinity.

Because a female must take advantage of any and every male available, she appears to be overwhehelmingly promiscuous when compared with other mammals.

http://www.all-about-your-pets.com/cats_are_noisy_promiscuous__about_sex_1599.html

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The She-wolf in Dante's Inferno is generally agreed to be avarice. Perhaps the promiscuity of the Holy Roman Church, and the savagery it was capable of.

I feel like Mladen's scope must broaden to actually be of any help in this regard. This saga is broader than any modern precept. Not that anyone wants to hear that. Esp Mladen. But, it was a generally waste of time reading that essay, unfortunately.

Feminism is present in these old books too, as in the Aeneid, with Camilla - no one seems to think twice about a woman on the battlefield, esp one who isn't dainty.

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I'm delighted to see this topic, for a long time I have been growing increasingly frustrated with many posters desire to make both the Stark girls increasingly one dimensional, neither is, they both have many facets to them and are indeed both a refraction of Lyanna as well as their own individuals. she (Lyanna) was not one dimensional either. Neither girl is in the way so many seek to portray them as linear beings who can only react or respond in one way.



I am really excited that you will be delving into the Northern Women as a group too. fantastic!


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Oh, and given the bullet points it seems this was not going to be mentioned. I don't think Lyanna is the only insight there is to Stark women.



That book on the Stark women hasn't been released yet but Bran's flashback perhaps gives another insight.







"He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her."



^This could be a Stark woman. It made me think of Arya. In the water thread it was discussed how the HoB&W, the COTF's cave, and WF all have black water. Where Arya is people go to the black pool to seek death. This woman prayed for vengeance which is similar to Arya praying for the same thing.





"And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but ehy were gone before he could put a name to them. Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand....The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed."




^This also seems like a Stark woman. I noticed how the man let the woman do the killing. This is a difference to Ned. I don't think he was that much different than Rickard in this respect actually. Rickard didn't let Lyanna play with swords. Ned let Arya but he already wanted to stop it and it was never meant to be long term or serious. He also had her trained as a bravo which has little place in Westeros. She wasn't supposed to go around killing people.



But in this flashback the woman slits throats in Arya fashion and this seems to have the support of the bearded man with her.



ETA: Also, Ned only had the boys witness executions and learn how he wanted them to conduct justice and killing. The girls weren't supposed to be violent. This woman carries out the execution.





Anyways, as far as relationships I don't see Sansa mirroring Lyanna that much. Harry and Robert can be a parallel although that might be premature. On the Rhaegar front I don't see it. Rhaegar was married with children. The only way I could see it is if those who love the idea of Aegon marrying both Arianne and Sansa and him loving and preferring her are correct. He still dies though. I don't see that scenario as likely though.



I read elsewhere that the blue rose symbolizes hope against unattainable love so it makes sense that Rhaegar/Lyanna ended in death.



Sansa's feelings for Joffrey I never really agreed with mirroring Lyanna. She did not actually love him. They barely knew each other. I would think even less of Lyanna if she impulsively ran away with a married man she barely knew and had only shallow feelings for. Joffrey was later married but by that time Sansa did not have feelings for him.



Arya doesn't mirror her relationships either. Elmar Frey was more similar to Genna Lannister where the parent negotiates a marriage that is beneath her. Arya was engaged to a possible bastard and someone who will never inherit as opposed to engaging her to one of Walder's firstborn's grandsons which are light years ahead of Elmar in the line of succession. Then she gets "married" to a monster but she doesn't know about it. That's comparable to the Northern woman who was also married to him. Totally different to Lyanna.



I don't see the Stark girls following her love life which I see as messy. Sansa has more of a chance of being like Catelyn where she marries a lord and it becomes love like she wanted to do with Willas. Cat actually had a successful and more fulfilling marriage and life than Lyanna did but she was dutiful and I doubt would want a married member of the royal family.



Lyanna's main accomplishment is giving birth to someone who will probably accomplish more than her. It's somewhat similar to Ned telling Arya her sons will do great things but she won't be able to do those things.


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