She-wolves of Winterfell: Analyzing Northern women

[Mladen]

The She-wolf in Dante's Inferno is generally agreed to be avarice. Perhaps the promiscuity of the Holy Roman Church, and the savagery it was capable of.

I feel like Mladen's scope must broaden to actually be of any help in this regard. This saga is broader than any modern precept. Not that anyone wants to hear that. Esp Mladen. But, it was a generally waste of time reading that essay, unfortunately.

Feminism is present in these old books too, as in the Aeneid, with Camilla - no one seems to think twice about a woman on the battlefield, esp one who isn't dainty.

Make no worries, no hard feelings... The work is out here so it can be either praised or criticized. I am so sorry you have wasted your time. Hope next time you will find something that is more appealing to you and something that won't be such drag to read.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

I've just recalled the instance when Lysa has a hold of Sansa and tries to force her towards the moon door, and Sansa thinks something to the effect of "if it is a choice of being dragged or walking, I choose to walk" (please forgive the indirect quote). Says much about her character at that time, and how she had handled her circumstances in Kings Landing. Arya was dragged many a times in kicking/screaming type fashion, willfully escaping most. If Lyanna is somewhere in the midst of these girl's strong but contradictory personalities she would be a hard woman to take unwillingly.

[1234567]

SNIP

Excellent comparison Mladen! Lyanna certainly reminds me of both girls in the way she is described.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think she would be quite easily captured although I think Lyanna was willing. Lyanna gets depicted as a Visenya type when they aren't alike. Arthur Dayne or Rhaegar could have easily snatched her up and she would not have had the skills to fight them off. Maybe she would have tried to resist but she wouldn't have been successful.

ETA: Also, unlike Arya Lyanna has no examples of being cunning. She was the KoTLT but I don't see that as an example of her being clever in a slick and devious way. Furthermore, Arya's ruthlessness in killing the guard is learned behavior and more like Brandon than Lyanna. Of course like Arya she was naturally violent too-beating up on the squires and Benjen so she could have also changed the same way. Arya escapes and survives because of her cunning first and foremost though much like Viserys II did.

[Mladen]

I've just recalled the instance when Lysa has a hold of Sansa and tries to force her towards the moon door, and Sansa thinks something to the effect of "if it is a choice of being dragged or walking, I choose to walk" (please forgive the indirect quote). Says much about her character at that time, and how she had handled her circumstances in Kings Landing. Arya was dragged many a times in kicking/screaming type fashion, willfully escaping most. If Lyanna is somewhere in the midst of these girl's strong but contradictory personalities she would be a hard woman to take unwillingly.

Here is direct quote:

Lady Lysa pulled at Sansa’s arm. It was either walk or be dragged, so she chose to walk, halfway down the hall and between a pair of pillars, to a white weirwood door set in the marble wall.

I think it shows rather great opposition between girls. As we know, Arya many times were not easily compelled to do something she didn't want to do, so she mostly escape or make a scene. Sansa is in the core very same. She is not easily compelled to do what she doesn't want, but she also have rather quiet, dignified and cold approach to it. This scene wonderfully mirrors the wedding scene when she without loud resistance went to get married. But, her not kneeling to Tyrion, well, that spoke volumes. As for Lyanna and how would she reacted, we see rather mix of two girls. She acted as Sansa when she was engaged to Robert but her possible escape would be a great parallel to Sansa's not kneeling to Tyrion. But, at the same time, the act of escape (if it really happened) also shows signs of Arya's personality where she undoubtedly confronted entire system for the sake of the one she loves or cares for. We see that when Arya defended Mycah, when she was ready to recklessly engage into a duel with Crown Prince solely to protect her friend.

I think she would be quite easily captured although I think Lyanna was willing. Lyanna gets depicted as a Visenya type when they aren't alike. Arthur Dayne or Rhaegar could have easily snatched her up and she would not have had the skills to fight them off. Maybe she would have tried to resist but she wouldn't have been successful.

This is another side of coin. If the kidnapping really happen, I imagine that Lyanna would give them rather difficult job to capture her. She would definitely resist, but alas wouldn't be able to win Rhaegar and his entourage. So, plainly, if she went willingly, it was mix of Sansa and Arya, if she was kidnapped, I imagine that would be closer to Arya. But given all the symbolism and other aspects of the story, I doubt she was kidnapped.

ETA: Also, unlike Arya Lyanna has no examples of being cunning. She was the KoTLT but I don't see that as an example of her being clever in a slick and devious way. Furthermore, Arya's ruthlessness in killing the guard is learned behavior and more like Brandon than Lyanna. Of course like Arya she was naturally violent too-beating up on the squires and Benjen so she could have also changed the same way. Arya escapes and survives because of her cunning first and foremost though much like Viserys II did.

I am conflicted about this... You see, from Ned's words we have learned that she was prohibited to use the swords or learn some knightly things. But, and if she was KotLT, she did show that she knew some things that she shouldn't have. So, Lyanna perhaps was cunning enough to learn some things Rickard forbade and also no one to learn about it. But, I also agree, Arya seems much more cunning than Lyanna.

[ARYa_Nym]

Here is direct quote:

I think it shows rather great opposition between girls. As we know, Arya many times were not easily compelled to do something she didn't want to do, so she mostly escape or make a scene. Sansa is in the core very same. She is not easily compelled to do what she doesn't want, but she also have rather quiet, dignified and cold approach to it. This scene wonderfully mirrors the wedding scene when she without loud resistance went to get married. But, her not kneeling to Tyrion, well, that spoke volumes. As for Lyanna and how would she reacted, we see rather mix of two girls. She acted as Sansa when she was engaged to Robert but her possible escape would be a great parallel to Sansa's not kneeling to Tyrion. But, at the same time, the act of escape (if it really happened) also shows signs of Arya's personality where she undoubtedly confronted entire system for the sake of the one she loves or cares for. We see that when Arya defended Mycah, when she was ready to recklessly engage into a duel with Crown Prince solely to protect her friend.

I don't think Arya escaping is an example of her being reckless and unruly though. Pretending to be harmless so people like Weese don't see her as a threat while she orchestrates his death and stays under the radar in the meantime shows cleverness and cunning rather than recklessness. The Bolton guard was cold and calculating. I think it's far colder than anything Sansa has done. She did not care if he was a good person, did not care if he had a family, and after she did it she casually said that the rain would wash the blood off. She planned it and knew that she would need to trick him in order to kill him. She also knew that she had little time and leaving was expedient.

Lyanna's dealings with Rhaegar to me don't seem that clever. Her one intelligent comment was about Robert and love not changing his nature.

This is another side of coin. If the kidnapping really happen, I imagine that Lyanna would give them rather difficult job to capture her. She would definitely resist, but alas wouldn't be able to win Rhaegar and his entourage. So, plainly, if she went willingly, it was mix of Sansa and Arya, if she was kidnapped, I imagine that would be closer to Arya. But given all the symbolism and other aspects of the story, I doubt she was kidnapped.

She can't give them difficulty though because she has no real martial talent, cunning, or practical experience. That's what I was saying that the fandom falsely portrays her as like Visenya or maybe a Sand Snake when she is not.

I agree that she wasn't kidnapped.

I am conflicted about this... You see, from Ned's words we have learned that she was prohibited to use the swords or learn some knightly things. But, and if she was KotLT, she did show that she knew some things that she shouldn't have. So, Lyanna perhaps was cunning enough to learn some things Rickard forbade and also no one to learn about it. But, I also agree, Arya seems much more cunning than Lyanna.

She secretly trained with Benjen. Benjen was younger than her. She was only 14/15 when Rhaegar ran off with her. Benjen would only be the age of a squire and in the flashback where she is fighting with him he is under 10. Her ability in beating him does not mean she can fight off grown men and is a talented swordswoman. She simply isn't. That is really child's play. Not the real thing and it would take her years to have talent. She would not be able to fight Rhaegar.

Being the KoTLT is about horsemanship. To return to the comment on the first page I actually disagree that showing interest in this is masculine. To me it seems to only be regarded as masculine because Arya is good at it while Sansa is not. There are ladies in the story who ride horses. Dany is never accused of being masculine for having Silver. Lyanna was never scorned for riding a horse. Alys Karstark was able to navigate a dying horse. What is different is that they aren't supposed to participate in tourneys and joust.

So basically I think her talent in the joust is not as an example of her having skills that she should not have. She was not forbidden to ride a horse and that's mostly what being good at jousting entails.

Lyanna being good at jousting says nothing about her ability to fight a grown man off. She does not have that ability nor has she shown cleverness like Arya or Viserys II to be able to evade and get herself out of such a situation. That's not to say she did not have it at all but there's no evidence. That required quick thinking, assessment of one's own strengths and the opponents weaknesses, and adaptability.

[Mladen]

I don't think Arya escaping is an example of her being reckless and unruly though. Pretending to be harmless so people like Weese don't see her as a threat while she orchestrates her death and stays under the radar in the meantime shows cleverness and cunning rather than recklessness. The Bolton guard was cold and calculating. I think it's far colder than anything Sansa has done. She did not care if he was a good person, did not care if he had a family, and after she did it she casually said that the rain would wash the blood off. She planned it and knew that she would need to trick him in order to kill him. She also knew that she had little time and leaving was expedient.

Lyanna's dealings with Rhaegar to me don't seem that clever. Her one intelligent comment was about Robert and love not changing his nature.

And on the other hand, you have her failed attempts of running without head from Brotherhood... Arya at the end of her storyline and at the beginning is naturally not the same. Her cunning, coldness etc. all of that came consequently. She wasn't like that at the beginning of the series. So, apparently Sansa peeps who are always accused for this, are not the only ones... There is evolution in the books, people... For all the characters. Just as Sansa is no longer naive as she was in AGOT, Arya has also changed. For better or for worse.

I also agree that Lyanna's dealings with Rhaegar wasn't the most intelligent thing. It was, as we are inclined to believe, a matter of heart. That is rather good parallel between her and Sansa.

She can't give them difficulty though because she has no real martial talent, cunning, or practical experience. That's what I was saying that the fandom falsely portrays her as like Visenya or maybe a Sand Snake when she is not.

I agree that she wasn't kidnapped.

Well, Harwin says she was a good rider, so perhaps they had to chase her to catch her. I am not sure at how evolved in training Lyanna truly was and I sincerely doubt she is Brienne or Sand Snake-type of warrior woman, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't be able to resist on all possible ways. Just look at Arya. She is skinny little girl and her deadliness comes from training and element of surprise. And as Bran said, the story about KotLT would be much better if the three were knights and not squires, which relatively shows us Lyanna's practical ability and the level of it.

Being the KoTLT is about horsemanship. To return to the comment on the first page I actually disagree that showing interest in this is masculine. To me it seems to only be regarded as masculine because Arya is good at it while Sansa is not. There are ladies in the story who ride horses. Dany is never accused of being masculine for having Silver. Lyanna was never scorned for riding a horse. Alys Karstark was able to navigate a dying horse. What is different is that they aren't supposed to participate in tourneys and joust.

So basically I think her talent in the joust is not as an example of her having skills that she should not have. She was not forbidden to ride a horse and that's mostly what being good at jousting entails.

Lyanna being good at jousting says nothing about her ability to fight a grown man off. She does not have that ability nor has she shown cleverness like Arya or Viserys II to be able to evade and get herself out of such a situation. That's not to say she did not have it at all but there's no evidence. That required quick thinking, assessment of one's own strengths and the opponents weaknesses, and adaptability.

I think you have misunderstood me. It is about resisting, not success of it. She could have resisted and failed in it (which I doubt ever happened) even without being some great swordsman or having some exceptional martial experience. At the end, no, riding is not considered masculine yes, but I think there is a bit difference between riding and jousting. I doubt that either Alys, Dany or many woman would be able joust properly.

[ARYa_Nym]

And on the other hand, you have her failed attempts of running without head from Brotherhood... Arya at the end of her storyline and at the beginning is naturally not the same. Her cunning, coldness etc. all of that came consequently. She wasn't like that at the beginning of the series. So, apparently Sansa peeps who are always accused for this, are not the only ones... There is evolution in the books, people... For all the characters. Just as Sansa is no longer naive as she was in AGOT, Arya has also changed. For better or for worse.

She was always a clever child. She successfully spied on Varys and Illyrio before captivity and was already a killer.

If one is going to compare how they behaved during captivity and escape they would need to look at what actually happened. What happened with Joffrey is not an example of how Arya behaved as a captive. Kicking and screaming is not how she behaved the majority of the time and it's not the reason why she escaped.

I also agree that Lyanna's dealings with Rhaegar wasn't the most intelligent thing. It was, as we are inclined to believe, a matter of heart. That is rather good parallel between her and Sansa.

The only way it parallels to Arya is her lack of ability to see the big picture, political implications, and being impulsive without thinking of the consequences.

Well, Harwin says she was a good rider, so perhaps they had to chase her to catch her. I am not sure at how evolved in training Lyanna truly was and I sincerely doubt she is Brienne or Sand Snake-type of warrior woman, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't be able to resist on all possible ways. Just look at Arya. She is skinny little girl and her deadliness comes from training and element of surprise. And as Bran said, the story about KotLT would be much better if the three were knights and not squires, which relatively shows us Lyanna's practical ability and the level of it.

I'm saying she can resist but she wouldn't have been difficult at all to acquire. Arya was barely trained and wasn't difficult to capture then either.

She was a good rider but Rhaegar is the one who won the tourney so he was a good rider too. Bran's comment shows that Lyanna did not compete against the actually talented jousters like say Barriston, Arthur Dayne, or Rhaegar. Bran is saying that he wished she competed against more skilled oppenents.

I think you have misunderstood me. It is about resisting, not success of it. She could have resisted and failed in it (which I doubt ever happened) even without being some great swordsman or having some exceptional martial experience. At the end, no, riding is not considered masculine yes, but I think there is a bit difference between riding and jousting. I doubt that either Alys, Dany or many woman would be able joust properly.

Why would Alys be unable? Jousting is 3/4 horseriding according to Jamie and he noted how good balance Loras had. Alys had a good balance too.

The skills matter if we're talking abut how much of a threat and trouble she is for them. I'm saying she isn't at all. It's pretty moot though since neither of us believe that she was captive.

I was referring to this:

When it comes to Arya, deconstruction of domesticity is done on almost every level. Her wild behavior clearly states that “she is no lady”. An entire deconstruction of the domesticity every noble-born girl should aspire to is done on every page of Arya’s POV. She is interested in “men’s businesses” like swordsmanship, riding, fighting, and all the interest, she as individual who happens to be female finds interesting, thus breaking the greatest stereotype that our gender defines our interests

and the notion that Lyanna being the mystery knight shows that she learned skills that Lord Rickard didn't want her to.

[Mladen]

I was referring to this:

and the notion that Lyanna being the mystery knight shows that she learned skills that Lord Rickard didn't want her to.

It shows that she was a good horse rider which isn't a masculine talent in and of itself.

Damn language barrier... That one was supposed to be jousting. I didn't mean that riding itself was "men's business", but the jousting. For, as you said, many women has ridden horse throughout the series.

[ARYa_Nym]

Damn language barrier... That one was supposed to be jousting. I didn't mean that riding itself was "men's business", but the jousting. For, as you said, many women has ridden horse throughout the series.

Oh, ok.

But Lyanna is the one who has shown interest in jousting as well as Elia Sand. Not Arya. She didn't even want to go.

Sansa wanted to go. Of course she is not interested in jousting herself either. But Arya:

"I don't care about their stupid tourney," Arya said. She knew Prince Joffrey would be there, and she hated Prince Joffrey."

[ARYa_Nym]

On the concept that Lyanna and Sansa are alike because of love there's this GRRM interview:

Why your saga is called A Song of Ice and Fire, because of the Wall and the dragons or is something more beyond that?

Oh! That’s the obvious thing but yes, there’s more. People say I was influenced by Robert Frost’s poem, and of course I was, I mean... Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is… you know, that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books.

http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html

Based on that they would be fire and Arya would be ice. It's puts Jon's line about sewing through winter and being frozen with a needle locked between her fingers more into perspective.

Melisandre:

"The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R’hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light."

From Jojen:

My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say.”
Bran made a face at her. “But you just said you hated them.”
“Why can’t it be both?” Meera reached up to pinch his nose.
“Because they’re different,” he insisted. “Like night and day, or ice and fire.”
“If ice can burn,” said Jojen in his solemn voice, “then love and hate can mate.”

Night and ice are associated together. Arya is the Night Wolf.

Day and fire are together. There's this from AGoT. Sansa sleeps as soon as the moon rises.

"...they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned's cloak..."

Despite being opposites there's a concept that they can be linked together though...nothing burns like the cold.

[Hrafntýr]

On the concept that Lyanna and Sansa are alike because of love there's this GRRM interview:

http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html

Based on that they would be fire and Arya would be ice. It's puts Jon's line about sewing through winter and being frozen with a needle locked between her fingers more into perspective.

Melisandre:

From Jojen:

Night and ice are associated together. Arya is the Night Wolf.

Day and fire are together. There's this from AGoT. Sansa sleeps as soon as the moon rises.

Despite being opposites there's a concept that they can be linked together though...nothing burns like the cold.

First: beautiful essays, Mladen!

And: ARYa_Nym: Bringing in the fire/ice symbolism is a lovely addition to this discussion, but I'd suggest that the interpretations offered in this thread work to undermine any easy opposition of Arya:Ice::Sansa:Fire. There are some wonderful posts above that show Sansa's steely iciness, just as Arya has so often behaved in the most hotheaded, passionate of ways. I'd point out, too, that just as ice can burn, so too can fire melt. If we take into account the suggestion that we need to bear in mind character development and growth, we could say that Arya may be learning to approach things more coldly, just as in her quieter moments, when she remembers her family, she is able to experience the less destructive aspects of fire: fire is not only about destructive conflagration of one's enemies, but also that which warms and even softens or melts that which is too hard. Sansa, with her penchant for romance, was always susceptible to the softening aspects of fire-as-love, and has been learning the ways of the hardness of ice, and she may yet steel herself for cold betrayal, even if ultimately for "warmer" interests of love and compassion.

And the connection with Lyanna's story might be the combination of a "cold" determination to escape marriage to Robert, a "warm" and "softened" attraction to Rheagar, and of course in "her" motif of blue roses, which are a beautiful mix of cold and warmth.

[ARYa_Nym]

First: beautiful essays, Mladen!

And: ARYa_Nym: Bringing in the fire/ice symbolism is a lovely addition to this discussion, but I'd suggest that the interpretations offered in this thread work to undermine any easy opposition of Arya:Ice::Sansa:Fire. There are some wonderful posts above that show Sansa's steely iciness, just as Arya has so often behaved in the most hotheaded, passionate of ways. I'd point out, too, that just as ice can burn, so too can fire melt. If we take into account the suggestion that we need to bear in mind character development and growth, we could say that Arya may be learning to approach things more coldly, just as in her quieter moments, when she remembers her family, she is able to experience the less destructive aspects of fire: fire is not only about destructive conflagration of one's enemies, but also that which warms and even softens or melts that which is too hard. Sansa, with her penchant for romance, was always susceptible to the softening aspects of fire-as-love, and has been learning the ways of the hardness of ice, and she may yet steel herself for cold betrayal, even if ultimately for "warmer" interests of love and compassion.

And the connection with Lyanna's story might be the combination of a "cold" determination to escape marriage to Robert, a "warm" and "softened" attraction to Rheagar, and of course in "her" motif of blue roses, which are a beautiful mix of cold and warmth.

I interpreted Jojen and Melisandre's comments as ice was hate while love is fire. Ice was death while life is fire.

But the concept of duality comes in when there can be a burning hatred for someone (as I said nothing burns like the cold) so in that way it could come off as passionate. Arya fits this. She can hate for a long time and she ruthlessly kills. Even before character development she had intense moments of hatred. Her feelings for the Lannisters are an example.

Love can turn to hate so again in that way passionate feelings can be seen as cool. Sansa can fit this.. She claimed to love Joffrey then later wished for him to die. While not love to hate she prayed for Tyrion then was cold to him because of what he did to her later on. Her warm feelings (compassion as you said) cooled.

ETA: Both of them can be destructive though. The original Frost poem:

Some say the world will end in fire,

Some say in ice.

From what I've tasted of desire

I hold with those who favor fire.

But if it had to perish twice,

I think I know enough of hate

To say that for destruction ice

Is also great

And would suffice.

Frost associates fire with desire and ice with hate. Both of them can lead to bad ends. Lyanna's love destroyed her after all and Aemon said that fire consumed while ice preserves. But we know that ice can destroy too as is the case with the Others and winter being death.

Oh, and passionate has more than one meaning. It can be strong emotion and sexual.

• showing or caused by intense feelings of sexual love.

"a passionate kiss"

synonyms:

amorous, ardent, hot-blooded, aroused, loving, sexy, sensual, erotic, lustful; More

informalsteamy, hot, red-hot, turned on

"a passionate kiss"

antonyms:

cold

Sansa had passionate thoughts about Loras and Sandor. Sansa also showed interest when Myranda talked about men. Lyanna and Rhaegar were in the Tower of Joy where they engaged in passionate behavior.

The same applies to hot-blooded. Remember Harwin told said that during tourneys the blood runs hot in response to Ned possibly having an affair with Ashara.

There's also the Dornishman's wife song:

Dornishman’s wife was fair as the sun, and her kisses were warmer than spring.

^Beauty was associated with the sun (beauty shines) and kissing is associated with warmth.

When Kevan says that Cersei is more beautiful than Lyanna:

The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however a bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun."

Lyanna did burn but according to him Cersei shines brighter.

& Loras' infamous line:

"...What of love?" "When the sun has set, no candle can replace it."

Sansa was described as radiant when she was first with Joffrey in AGoT. Radiant like the sun=happiness.

Brienne talks about songs:

"...it’s always summer in the songs. In the songs all the knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful, and the sun is always shining.”

Barriston's fire vs. mud:

"...but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud."

When you desire someone you're hot for them. Love sets the heart aflame. I think that really shows what Lyanna went through with Rhaegar. It burned quick then went out but when the fire was going it was intense.

Arya only has intense emotion which I said could be burning coldness since it usually manifests itself as violence with her. Someone like Visenya would embody passionate more than her. GRRM uses that word to describe her. She had strong feelings, was also a seductress, and tried to win Aegon's affection.

Strong excited emotion goes hand in hand with strong sexual love. That's how someone would run away with a lover.

[Mladen]

snip

When it comes to ice and fire dualism in girls' storyarc, I like Lady Gwyn's analysis of girls being complementary forces. They do oppose each other being different in many aspects of their life, but there is something that connects them. If we speak about ice and winter analogy, Sansa would be ice chill, calm and yet frosting, while Arya is more like blizzard. Sansa can erupt and let her emotions sometimes blind her, and Arya can be steady as well "water dancer". Then when we move to fire analogy, Sansa is warm, kind, friendly fire, while Arya's fire is destructive force, the one that overwhelms. Basically, Sansa's fire is the fire in the cabin, Arya's is the uncontrollable fire that burns everything...

But, interestingly, as much as we see them as opposing forces and different on so many levels, both of the girls have something of each other in them. or perhaps not of them, but of their parents, making us realize how true Ned was when he spoke of them having the same blood. So, I see two girls as yin and yang of Stark she-wolves. One embracing the wild wolf's nature and another nurturing one. One being vicious predator, the other being mother and protector. But just as predator can be protector, mother can be cruel. And that is why on some level, I think the bond in the girls' natures is stronger than we originally thought.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Oh wow, Mladen, this is absolutely brilliant. I am looking forward to reading your further essays, and what you make of Alys Karstark and the Mormont women as well. (Maybe you could include Meera Reed, as House Reed are bannermen to House Stark, and I think she fits into the "Northern woman" mold. In fact, I would class Meera alongside the Mormonts as women who are outside of typical patriarchal authority. Not to mention, Bran and his party would be dead without Meera and her spear.)

I want to add more in-depth comments as my brain creates them, but I agree that: 1) Both Sansa and Arya resemble Lyanna, who combines the traits of both sisters into a whole, and 2) the girls are two halves of a whole; "The same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you," as Ned put it. (And he adds, "I need you both.")

When I had revisited the series after my first reading, it struck me that while Arya looks like Ned, she is personality-wise more like Cat, and is associated with the Riverlands; and Sansa, who looks strikingly like Cat, is personality-wise much more like Ned, and associated with the North.

Arya spends most of her time in CoK and SoS trying to get to Riverrun. She notes that while she has made so many efforts to get to Riverrun, she's always wound up further away. By the end of SoS she's slogged through just about the whole area of the Riverlands, except Riverrun itself and Seagard. She and the people around her are not thinking in terms of Winterfell - although, there is solid reason for that, as Winterfell is under control of the ironmen and "lost" to the Starks. But my point is that Arya is intimately acquainted with the Riverlands, and has Riverrun in mind, where Sansa does not.

Sansa, meanwhile, is always thinking in terms of "home" which is Winterfell. Even when she is hoping to escape to Highgarden, she wants to name her future children after her own (Northern) family. When Petyr Baelish reminds her that she has to be Alayne, Sansa thinks to herself, "I am Eddard Stark's daughter and Lady Catelyn's, the blood of Winterfell." I do not recall Sansa ever giving much more than a passing thought to Riverrun; certainly she expresses no particular longing for the place, nor does she see it as a place of refuge. Sansa has been to the Riverlands exactly once, on her journey south with the royal party - and I note that Lady was killed in the Riverlands (near Darry). Meanwhile, live Nymeria roams the Riverlands, and Lady's bones are buried at Winterfell. So a part of Arya is in the Riverlands, and a part of Sansa is permanently at Winterfell. ETA: I just remembered that while Sansa isn't in the North now, it's winter in the Vale, and she built Winterfell out of snow in one of the most beautiful scenes in all the novels.

It will be interesting to see if this flips in the last two (or three?) books. Some of Bran Vras' writings on the subject (here's the website: http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/HuisClos.html ), deriving from the "heresy" theories, associate Sansa with the Whent bat and, by extension, Harrenhal. If Sansa gets intimately acquainted with the Riverlands, and Arya journeys from Braavos to the Wall (also a distinct possibility), thereby acquiring an association with winter that Sansa already has, the sisters will be completing the "two halves of a whole" theme.

So very much to think about!

[Mladen]

It will be interesting to see if this flips in the last two (or three?) books. Some of Bran Vras' writings on the subject (here's the website: http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/HuisClos.html ), deriving from the "heresy" theories, associate Sansa with the Whent bat and, by extension, Harrenhal. If Sansa gets intimately acquainted with the Riverlands, and Arya journeys from Braavos to the Wall (also a distinct possibility), thereby acquiring an association with winter that Sansa already has, the sisters will be completing the "two halves of a whole" theme.

I thought you have seen this thread of mine - House Stark of Harrenhal

Also, thank you very much, KRBD...

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I haven't read that thread - I've been away from the boards too long - but I'm off to read it right now! I'm glad I'm not the only one to think that "wolf with wings like a bat" may have been foreshadowing.

Also, Sansa sounds like a Riverlands name. It goes right with to other Whent women's names that we know of - Sarya and Shella. It also ends with the same "sa" sound as her grandmother Minisa Whent.

[Annara Snow]

Anyways, as far as relationships I don't see Sansa mirroring Lyanna that much. Harry and Robert can be a parallel although that might be premature. On the Rhaegar front I don't see it. Rhaegar was married with children. The only way I could see it is if those who love the idea of Aegon marrying both Arianne and Sansa and him loving and preferring her are correct. He still dies though. I don't see that scenario as likely though.

I read elsewhere that the blue rose symbolizes hope against unattainable love so it makes sense that Rhaegar/Lyanna ended in death.

Sansa's feelings for Joffrey I never really agreed with mirroring Lyanna. She did not actually love him. They barely knew each other. I would think even less of Lyanna if she impulsively ran away with a married man she barely knew and had only shallow feelings for. Joffrey was later married but by that time Sansa did not have feelings for him.

Arya doesn't mirror her relationships either. Elmar Frey was more similar to Genna Lannister where the parent negotiates a marriage that is beneath her. Arya was engaged to a possible bastard and someone who will never inherit as opposed to engaging her to one of Walder's firstborn's grandsons which are light years ahead of Elmar in the line of succession. Then she gets "married" to a monster but she doesn't know about it. That's comparable to the Northern woman who was also married to him. Totally different to Lyanna.

I don't see the Stark girls following her love life which I see as messy. Sansa has more of a chance of being like Catelyn where she marries a lord and it becomes love like she wanted to do with Willas. Cat actually had a successful and more fulfilling marriage and life than Lyanna did but she was dutiful and I doubt would want a married member of the royal family.

Sansa is not like Catelyn, especially not in that regard. Sansa was always very romantic and a dreamer, Catelyn was a combination of dutiful and pragmatic when it came to marriage, love and relationships. Maybe it's partly because Cat was the eldest daughter who has to step up as the lady of the house very early when her mother died. We can see that in the way she thinks about Edmure's and Robb's marriages - she thinks Edmure should be mainly concerned if his bride is a good person and if she is able to bear children, and can't understand why he is so concerned with what she looks like. Teenage Cat may have been more swayed by looks and superficial charm (Brandon) but while Cat was attracted to Brandon, but there's no sign that she was ever "wildly in love" (infatuated) with anyone, or that it could sway her from her duty. Cat liked songs about Jenny and Duncan, but they don't seem to have ever affected her way of approaching marriage and relationships. Cat was ready to marry a man she had never met because her father asked her so.

Sansa was never actually particularly "dutiful", especially not when it comes to marriage. She only seemed that way because her interests were aligned with her conventional social role. Arya didn't have the same interests and wasn't good in sewing, music, poetry, dressing and looking beautiful, and all the other "ladylike" things Sansa liked. (But, as the Septa said, Sansa was as willful as Arya when it came to her direwolf.) Sansa did want to be a "good girl", but she liked the arranged marriage with Joffrey because she saw him as her prince charming from the songs. But when Ned told her she wasn't going to marry her crush Joffrey and live in the beautiful capital, with knights and tournaments and everything, and that he was going to find a better match for her - Sansa disobeyed him, and went behind his back to get what she wanted.

From that point on, Sansa has always been someone's prisoner, and had to put on a mask and be obedient to her captors in order to survive. She didn't have any choice torefuse Joffrey or Tyrion; was finding courage to refuse Lysa's offer of SR, even though Lysa had more or less told her she had no choice and could be out in the street as a beggar; and isn't currently in the position to openly refuse LF's planned marriage to Harry. People tend to confuse "dutiful" with "not having any freedom of choice", and other characters call Sansa "dutiful" but that's just a sign that they misunderstand her and don't really know her, IMO - examples include Tyrion, who calls her "dutiful" (which annoys him) during their marriage, while she was actually just aware that she was a prisoner of the Lannisters, felt that her forced marriage was "a mockery of a marriage", used her courtesy to keep him emotionally at arms' length, and was trying to get away from King's Landing all that time. LF also calls her "dutiful", with disappointment that she is not passionate, when she kisses him as ordered. Both of them are using the wrong word: she is not dutiful, she is just disinterested in them romantically/sexually, using her courtesy shield, and trying to survive. She was willing to marry Willas when she was in a desperate position and eager to get away from the Lannisters, and a Tyrell marriage seemed like a wonderful alternative in comparison, but even then, she wasn't resigned to the idea of a loveless marriage, so she tried to believe that she may turn out to be attracted to Willas since he probably looks like Loras a lot and is reputedly a nice guy, and that she could make Willas love her. And this wasn't about Sansa doing her duty to anyone, it was about Sansa looking for the best future she could hope for herself.

But the Tyrion marriage and her recognition that the Tyrells were never really her friends and only wanted her for her claim to Winterfell, has finally put a stop to Sansa's attempts to find a correlation between love/romance and arranged marriages that are the usual fate of a highborn lady like her; especially since she has no family and is thought to be the heir of Winterfell, which has made her a desired commodity on the marriage market, and not for herself. "No one will ever marry me for love", thinks Sansa sadly. This says a lot. Who of the highborn Westerosi even hopes for marriage for love, or thinks that marriage should be for love? Sansa, that's who does. And her reaction so far hasn't been to resign herself to the idea of arranged political marriages - her current reaction is an aversion to marriage.

And while Cat was never able to shake off her aversion to bastards (although that was largely because of her issues related to Jon), Sansa is currently starting to find the positives in the status of a bastard and a certain fascination with women who are outside the socially conventional role and lead less conventional romantic lives (Ellaria, Mya).

I really don't see Sansa freely agreeing to an arranged marriage and trying to make the best of it, in the situation where she actually has some choice. That's not where her development and arc has been leading to; it has actually been leading away from it.

Sansa and Arya are different in many ways, but neither of them would agree to marry someone they didn't want, out of duty.

[ARYa_Nym]

Arya never thinks of Riverrun as a potential home. She actually says she dreamed of home not Rivverun but WF. At one point she says maybe Braavos could be her home and she wondered if Harrenhal was her home.

She clasped her hands together. Help me, you old gods , she prayed silently. Help me get those men out of the dungeon so we can kill Ser Amory, and bring me home to Winterfell. Make me a water dancer and a wolf and not afraid again, ever.

She could find Nymeria in the wild woods below the Trident, and together they’d return to Winterfelll, or run to Jon on the Wall.

When she buries Needle it represented WF's grey walls.

The candles made her think of WF not Riverrun.

If they are afraid, the candles soothe them. When you smell our candles burning, what does it make you think of, my child?” Winterfell, she might have said. I smell snow and smoke and pine needles.

It makes sense because she has never been there nor has she met any of her Tully relatives.

Her wolf lives there but she preys on the residents. It see it as not a place that she's welcome so not a true home. She in a position that her namesake was in where she gathered her people gathered along the Rhoyne but they were really a lost people at that point until they fled. She's been hunted by people in the Riverlands for supposedly killing a baby. Arya was similar during her travelogue in the Riverlands.

Annara I don't feel like quoting so I'll just go by points.

I wasn't saying that Sansa is dutiful but that she is more likely to mirror her mother in the sense that she marries a lord and that she loves him. She may not do that but it's still more likely than has an affair with a married man and dies young.

Only imo shippers think Arya is going to marry some lord (Gendry) like Catelyn did. To me it's clearly not happening especially now.

Catelyn did not pick Ned but she was capable of loving him and being romantic towards him.

I have lost my Ned, the rock my life was built on, I could not bear to lose the girls as well…

'And after the war, at Winterfell, I had love enough for any woman, once I found the good sweet heart beneath Ned's solemn face. There is no reason Edmure should not find the same, with his Roslin'."

“Catelyn, you shall stay here in Winterfell.” His words were like an icy draft through her heart. “No,”she said, suddenly afraid. This to be her punishment? Never to see his face again, nor to feel his arms around her?

…food had lost its savor in a world without Ned. When they took his head off, they killed me too.

I thought her feelings towards Mya and Brienne were similar to Sansa actually.

Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty.

A mob of ragged boys raced by screeching and flailing at each other with sticks. Why do boys so love to play at war?

^ She clearly does not like swordfighting. She participated in it out of duty or in life or death situations.

& she favors diplomacy.

“A child sees an obstacle, and his first thought is to run around it or knock it down. A lord must learn that sometimes words can accomplish what swords cannot.”

She values the conventional. This should be no surprise that she likes it since she was dutiful and her duty was to be a lady. She said she gladly married Ned.

Anyways, she did not care for Brienne's unconventional behavior at first:

“Because he is no man, my lady. That’s Brienne of Tarth, daughter to Lord Selwyn the Evenstar.” “Daughter?” Catleyn was horrified.

Catelyn had ordered garments sewn to her measure, handsome gowns to suit her birth and sex, yet she still preferred to dress in oddments of mail and boiled leather, a swordbelt cinched around her waist. She would have been happier riding to war with Edmure, no doubt…-

^She didn't see why Brienne dressed like that.

Sansa didn't care for the way Mya dressed either.

“Slim and sinewy, Mya looked as though as the old riding leathers she wore beneath her silvery ringmail shirt. Her hair was black as a raven’s wing, so short and shaggy that Alayne suspected she cut it with a dagger. Mya’s eyes were her best feature, big and blue. She could be pretty, if she would dress up like a girl. Alayne found herself wondering whether Ser Lothor liked her best in her iron and leather, or dreamed of her gowned in lace and silk.

Catelyn also thought the Mormont women strange.

By Catelyn’s lights, that was queer garb for a lady, yet Dacey and Lady Maege seemed more comfortable, both as warriors and as women, than ever the girl from Tarth had been.

But she still appreciated them.

Lady Maege’s eldest daughter was quite pretty…It was pleasant to see that she could be as graceful on the dance floor as in the training yard.

She defended Dacey being Robb's guard.

She didn't like that Mya was a bastard at first because it made her think of Jon but she spoke with her and thought that Mya reminded her of Sansa and felt pity for her because of her interest in someone who would never marry her.

Arya imo is not going to be like either of her female family members. Her model is prostitutes not Stark or Tully women.

[Annara Snow]

Annara I don't feel like quoting so I'll just go by points.

I wasn't saying that Sansa is dutiful but that she is more likely to mirror her mother in the sense that she marries a lord and that she loves him. She may not do that but it's still more likely than has an affair with a married man and dies young.

Arya is not likely to have an affair with a married man and die in childbirth, either. And I stand by my statement that Sansa is unlikely to marry someone she doesn't know just out of a feelings of duty (and I don't think she would've been to begin with). Catelyn, Lyanna, Sansa and Arya are all different people with different personalities and desires; none of them are just like one of the other. Arya has some similarities with Lyanna but is very different from her in other matters, and some similarities with Cat but is very different from her in other matters.

Only imo shippers think Arya is going to marry some lord (Gendry) like Catelyn did. To me it's clearly not happening especially now.

Catelyn did not pick Ned but she was capable of loving him and being romantic towards him.

I thought her feelings towards Mya and Brienne were similar to Sansa actually.

^ She clearly does not like swordfighting. She participated in it out of duty or in life or death situations.

& she favors diplomacy.

She values the conventional. This should be no surprise that she likes it since she was dutiful and her duty was to be a lady. She said she gladly married Ned.

Anyways, she did not care for Brienne's unconventional behavior at first:

^She didn't see why Brienne dressed like that.

Sansa didn't care for the way Mya dressed either.

Catelyn also thought the Mormont women strange.

But she still appreciated them.

She defended Dacey being Robb's guard.

She didn't like that Mya was a bastard at first because it made her think of Jon but she spoke with her and thought that Mya reminded her of Sansa and felt pity for her because of her interest in someone who would never marry her.

Catelyn didn't dislike the unconventional women she knew, she actually liked them, but she pitied them, because she simply didn't see how any woman could achieve any degree of success in their society without possessing beauty, ladylike behavior, and other qualities the society finds desirable, and she didn't see any way for people to bridge the limitations of their class and social status. Much like Ned, Cat is good person who is not narrow-minded in the sense of being prejudiced (except when it's really personal, as with Jon), but she operates within a certain set of social rules and doesn't believe that people will be able to break or overcome them (like Ned, who is sympathetic to Arya's desire to learn sword-fighting and hires a teacher, but believes that Arya will eventually grow up into a young lady who marries a lord).

Sansa starts with the same mindset, and is even harsher at 11, thinking that Jeyne is silly for crushing on Beric, a lord, who would never be interested in someone so lowborn as Jeyne. But at age 13 in ASOS/AFFC, her reactions to unconventional women like Ellaria Sand (a bastard who is in a serious, loving relationship without being married and has children out of wedlock who are not despised) and Mya Sand (a bastard and unmarried non-virgin, and a girl who is fairly independent thanks to having a skill and a job) isn't pity but interest and even a degree of fascination.

As they were crossing the yard, Prince Oberyn of Dorne fell in beside them, his black-haired paramour on his arm. Sansa glanced at the woman curiously. She was baseborn and unwed, and had home two bastard daughters for the prince, but she did not fear to look even the queen in the eye. Shae had told her that this Ellaria worshiped some Lysene love goddess. “She was almost a whore when he found her, m’lady,” her maid confided, “and now she’s near a princess.” Sansa had never been this close to the Dornishwoman before. She is not truly beautiful, she thought, but something about her draws the eye.

She isn't concerned that nobody would be interested in Mya if she dresses the way she does, she already realizes that Lothor Brune has a thing for Mya, and is beginning to understand that ladylike look and behavior may not be the only thing that attracts men, or the necessary thing that attracts all men.

Despite herself, Alayne found herself warming to the older girl. She had not had a friend to gossip with since poor Jeyne Poole. “Do you think Ser Lothor likes her as she is, in mail and leather?” she asked the older girl, who seemed so worldly-wise. “Or does he dream of her draped in silks and velvets?”

“He’s a man. He dreams of her naked.”

Arya imo is not going to be like either of her female family members. Her model is prostitutes not Stark or Tully women.

Her model for what, "seductive" behavior she'll occasionally use when she has to lure someone to kill him? Prostitutes may be a part of the model for that, though she's actually mostly using mummers as a model in the released chapter. But prostitutes are not Arya's role models - she is trying to be an assassin and the main thing she has been doing and learning to do is kill people. Her mentors/"role models" were mostly male so far, partly by circumstance, And as a FM, everyone can be her "model", every dead person whose identity she assumes and absorbs.