She-wolves of Winterfell: Analyzing Northern women

[ARYa_Nym]

Arya is not likely to have an affair with a married man and die in childbirth, either. And I stand by my statement that Sansa is unlikely to marry someone she doesn't know just out of a feelings of duty (and I don't think she would've been to begin with). Catelyn, Lyanna, Sansa and Arya are all different people with different personalities and desires; none of them are just like one of the other. Arya has some similarities with Lyanna but is very different from her in other matters, and some similarities with Cat but is very different from her in other matters.

I don't think she's likely to be like Lyanna either except for also dying in her teens. Ned correctly saw that it was possible.

Sansa is more likely to marry a lord and be in a high position like Catelyn was (Lady of WF, political adviser) than have an affair with a married man and die before her time like Lyanna did.

Catelyn didn't dislike the unconventional women she knew, she actually liked them, but she pitied them, because she simply didn't see how any woman could achieve any degree of success in their society without possessing beauty, ladylike behavior, and other qualities the society finds desirable, and she didn't see any way for people to bridge the limitations of their class and social status. Much like Ned, Cat is good person who is not narrow-minded in the sense of being prejudiced (except when it's really personal, as with Jon), but she operates within a certain set of social rules and doesn't believe that people will be able to break or overcome them (like Ned, who is sympathetic to Arya's desire to learn sword-fighting and hires a teacher, but believes that Arya will eventually grow up into a young lady who marries a lord).

Sansa starts with the same mindset, and is even harsher at 11, thinking that Jeyne is silly for crushing on Beric, a lord, who would never be interested in someone so lowborn as Jeyne. But at age 13 in ASOS/AFFC, her reactions to unconventional women like Ellaria Sand (a bastard who is in a serious, loving relationship without being married and has children out of wedlock who are not despised) and Mya Sand (a bastard and unmarried non-virgin, and a girl who is fairly independent thanks to having a skill and a job) isn't pity but interest and even a degree of fascination.

As they were crossing the yard, Prince Oberyn of Dorne fell in beside them, his black-haired paramour on his arm. Sansa glanced at the woman curiously. She was baseborn and unwed, and had home two bastard daughters for the prince, but she did not fear to look even the queen in the eye. Shae had told her that this Ellaria worshiped some Lysene love goddess. “She was almost a whore when he found her, m’lady,” her maid confided, “and now she’s near a princess.” Sansa had never been this close to the Dornishwoman before. She is not truly beautiful, she thought, but something about her draws the eye.

She isn't concerned that nobody would be interested in Mya if she dresses the way she does, she already realizes that Lothor Brune has a thing for Mya, and is beginning to understand that ladylike look and behavior may not be the only thing that attracts men, or the necessary thing that attracts all men.

Despite herself, Alayne found herself warming to the older girl. She had not had a friend to gossip with since poor Jeyne Poole. “Do you think Ser Lothor likes her as she is, in mail and leather?” she asked the older girl, who seemed so worldly-wise. “Or does he dream of her draped in silks and velvets?”

“He’s a man. He dreams of her naked.”

She didn't care for their unconventional behavior as the quotes I posted proved but she came to appreciate them regardless of that. She could overlook the "faults". She didn't pity the Mormont women. Dacey was pretty and could still look good in a dress. Brienne's problem was that she was ugly hence the pity. She pitied Mya for wanting someone above her station which is about class differences.

Her model for what, "seductive" behavior she'll occasionally use when she has to lure someone to kill him? Prostitutes may be a part of the model for that, though she's actually mostly using mummers as a model in the released chapter. But prostitutes are not Arya's role models - she is trying to be an assassin and the main thing she has been doing and learning to do is kill people. Her mentors/"role models" were mostly male so far, partly by circumstance, And as a FM, everyone can be her "model", every dead person whose identity she assumes and absorbs.

Her model for relations between men and women. That's who she learned from. She has a very lax attitude because of what she's observed from early on to the present. She wouldn't have learned it from Jaqen. It's the hanging out in brothels and seeing people like Pia have sex although the latter wasn't a prostitute. Even in ADWD she casually refers the first thing she sees after being blind to a prostitute swinging back and forth and how beautiful it was.

She's killed more people before she got to the FM and even if she leaves she won't stop killing. I wouldn't say she was taught to kill by them. She's only been learning to kill more efficiently and other useful things that can be applied such as languages, gathering information, etc. She was fascinated by Jaqen because he was highly skilled and could change his face.

They actually have told her to kill less than what she wanted to (don't kill the insurance man's guards/killing Dareon wasn't justified).

In the released chapter she killed Raff in a similar way a prostitute that she mentioned in AFFC does.

"Some of the dockside whores were vicious, and sailors fresh from the sea never knew which ones. S’vrone was the worst. Everyone said she had robbed and killed a dozen men, rolling the bodies into the canals to feed the eels."

The mummery is when she's Mercy and she does create an act on her own but it's killing Raff that takes her out of the role and she leaves him to the eels like S'Vrone does.

As for robbing she did take Dareon's boots and then left him in the canal.

Considering that she has not had courtesan training she would have based her attempts at seduction based on what she'd seen done by the prostitutes and her FM training so far wouldn't have made her think of using that.

She actually thinks against using that with the mummers based on what Daena told her.

[Mladen]

And the time has come to move on... I have been really excited to present you with this piece, which hopefully you will enjoy reading. With this essay, I conclude the discussion about Lyanna, and moving to other she-wolves of the North. So, after long writing process I give you:

Comparative analysis of winter flowers: Eowyn of Rohan and Lyanna Stark

The analysis of any motif in modern fantasy genre will certainly lead us to the father of the modern fantasy. J.R.R. Tolkien has certainly became one of the most influential writers in the 20th century by inspiring entire generation of epic fantasy writers and their creation of the vast worlds their stories happen in. Thus, it is not strange to assume that every once and a while, the work of contemporary fantasy writers will be compared with and analyzed through the spectrum of the Tolkien’s opus.

The influence Tolkien had on Martin is quite certain. After all, Martin himself told that ASOIAF was created on the questions Tolkien perhaps didn’t answer like “What was Aragorn’s tax policy?” GRRM’s masterpiece has a lot of parallels with Tolkien’s work, but for the purposes of this thread, I will focus on parallels between two female characters, Eowyn of Rohan and Lyanna Stark.

Eowyn of Rohan is one of very rare female characters in Tolkien’s work. The beautiful yet strong shield-maiden of Rohan, in the literary world mostly occupied by men, has become truly epitome of women’s strength and the gender equality in Tolkien’s world. On the other hand, elusive and mysterious story of Lyanna Stark has many elements according to which we can compare her with Eowyn, concluding that Martin has found inspiration for Lyanna in Eowyn and all the archetypes Tolkien has incorporated in her story. This doesn’t mean that Lyanna represents the homage to Eowyn, being her shadow in every aspect, but that the motifs in Eowyn’s story have been used by Martin in characterizing Lyanna.

Naturally, we shall start from the surface. The both girls are described as really beautiful, but at the same time, both authors made sure that neither one of them is considered to be the Helen of Troy of the respective universes. Just as Faramir said about Eowyn “In the valleys of our hills there are flowers fair and bright, and maidens fairer still” Kevan’s note about Lyanna is very similar “The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.” Beside the beauty, the two ladies shared the common interests, those that have been considered in medieval setting, a man’s occupation: sword wielding and riding. Eowyn is from Rohan, a land known for great horsemen, and Lyanna’s skill as the rider has been reported in several occasions. Harwin complemented Arya’s riding by comparing it to Lyanna’s and Lady Dustin called her and Brandon “a pair of centaurs” Lastly, unlike Eowyn, who knew rather well how to wield sword, Lyanna was prohibited by her father to pursue one of her interests.

But below the beauty and the common interests, there are rather impressive parallels in motifs and narrative of the two characters. Lyanna mimics Eowyn in many aspects, from her aspiration for glory, her willfulness and strength to the beautiful transformation from shield-maiden to woman. The story of Lyanna has indeed been mystery, but even with snippets we have been given, there are some conclusions we can make. For the better understanding of how these parallels work, I will focus at each one of them at the time.

The struggle for freedom – Aragorn/Rhaegar parallels

One of the most beautiful things about Lyanna and Eowyn is their desire not to abide the social norms, to escape from the predicted roles the males in their lives had ordered them:

‘Shall I always be chosen?’ she said bitterly. ‘Shall I always be left behind when the Riders depart, to mind the house while they win renown, and find food and beds when they return?’

In Eowyn’s case, we have rather vocal contempt for the role she is given. We, alas, don’t have this in Lyanna’s case. But, it is not too far-fetched to assume what she considered her own cage – the role of obedient wife to Robert Baratheon. From the conversation Ned reminiscences in AGoT, Lyanna spoke of Robert not as a man she was in love, but as someone whom she has duty to comply to. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature” Between this melancholic memory and the story of her assumed kidnapping, one can conclude that Lyanna wasn’t thrilled with arranged marriage.

It should also be noted the importance of the she-wolf symbolism in her story. She-wolf, as Lyanna is referred in Knight of the Laughing tree story, has became symbol of the women’s acceptance of their sexuality and strength, the breaking of the norms created by the patriarchal society. Furthermore, this has been enhanced with biological knowledge of the she-wolf and their refusal to mate with anyone other than their own choice. As symbol of freedom, independence and choice, analyzing Lyanna as she-wolf gets another aspect: rejecting Robert as the future husband (mate). Lyanna’s reluctance and refusal get final shape when she is “kidnapped” by Rhaegar.

Rhaegar Targaryen has been presented as the ideal man of Westeros. Between his poetic nature, royal status and beauty, he certainly represented the best and brightest of the country. His ancient heritage mixed with melancholic nature and heroic status he enjoyed in eyes of many made of him great ASOIAF counterpart of Aragorn. How exactly they are similar to each other is story for another thread, since I will now focus solely on their impact on these two young women.

Aragorn came to Edoras accompanying Gandalf who healed King Theoden of Rohan from the bewitchment Grima and Saruman put on him. There, he meets Eowyn, the King’s niece. We actually see his influence on Eowyn and her growing infatuation with this strong man of the North, descendent of the Gondor Kings. But, as powerful as her sentiments are for Aragorn, the truth is somewhat different.

And yet, Éomer, I say to you that she loves you more truly than me; for you she loves and knows; but in me she loves only a shadow and a thought: a hope of glory and great deeds, and lands far from the fields of Rohan.

What Eowyn felt for Aragorn certainly wasn’t love, but the idea of glory, of those deeds she dreamed to accomplish, for Aragorn represents the embodiment of everything that is honorable, glorious and victorious and for someone like Eowyn, it isn’t strange that she became infatuated with all of that.

Wonderfully paralleling that situation Rhaegar Targaryen is being introduced to Lyanna’s life. On the first night they meet, we see Lyanna being overwhelmed by emotions due to Rhaegar’s singing. But the continuation of their story is far more interesting. For willful, strong and wolf-blooded Lyanna, the given role just like in Eowyn’s case represents the cage:

‘What do you fear, lady?’ he asked. ‘A cage,’ she said. ‘To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.’

The story of KotLT gives us little detail on what might have happened when and if Rhaegar had found the true identity of mysterious knight (for whom, the author of this essay believes there are enough evidence to conclude it was Lyanna) but what comes next, the supposed kidnapping, truly speaks volumes.

For a very long time, this board has dwelled on the idea that what connected Rhaegar and Lyanna was a love story, or at least desire to fulfill prophecy on Rhaegar’s side. Recently, I have been pointed in different direction. The question is that although we can conclude that what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna can be called love story, can we indeed say the same for its beginning? What was the true motivation behind Lyanna’s decision to elope? Was it love or perhaps something else?

While there is enough evidence to assume that there was some attraction, a case can be made that Lyanna was motivated by her desire not to marry Robert. With her discontent of the bound future, it isn’t crazy to assume that she perhaps sought help from the person that could have helped her – Crown Prince. Lyanna’s escape certainly ended as tragic love story, but Rhaegar could have been Lyanna’s way out of her arranged marriage just as she was his way of fulfilling the prophecy.

The impact both Aragorn and Rhaegar had for these women is valuable. They represented the escape from the cage of the roles given to these women at their birth. With distinction that Rhaegar/Lyanna story ended as love story and that Aragorn/Eowyn story ended with her realizing that he is not the man she loves, the beginnings of the two stories are profoundly similar. And although it is, in terms of feminist view on things, a bit tainted by the men liberating women from their shackles, these two stories show us two women rejecting the given roles and fighting for what they believe in and for what they loved. Aragorn and Rhaegar maybe showed them the paths, but they walked it alone and faced all the consequences of their choices.

Armed to fight – Dernhelm/Knight of the Laughing Tree parallels

Certainly one of the most striking parallels is their hiding behind the armor and pretending to be a man so they could participate in respective battles. Although, in comparison to skills, Eowyn is more comparable to Brienne, thing is that Brienne doesn’t hide behind the helm, and fights openly. Eowyn, on the other hand, is just like Lyanna, hidden from the privy eyes behind the helm fighting in the war she chooses to be in.

Undoubtedly, we can see difference in motivation. While Eowyn wanted to fight for glory, for heroic deeds she dreamed of accomplishing, Lyanna’s motivation was far less heroic and more humane. She fought for someone she cared for. She stood in defense of someone who couldn’t have defended on his own – little crannogman – Howland Reed. It is worthy to mention that Eowyn does something similar. She empathizes with Merry’s pleas as she is also the one to be left behind. Dernhelm, Eowyn’s alias, is described as very similar to KotLT:

A young man, Merry thought as he returned the glance, less in height and girth than most. (Return of the King)

“No one knew,” said Meera, “but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. (Storm of swords)

Obviously, both women needed to hide their identity from everyone in order to accomplish what they wanted. Eowyn fought at Pelennor fields, while Lyanna was fighting only one day, in honor of her friend. The Norse folklore and myths of shieldmaiden are wonderfully used to depict both women, for their courage, honor and strength equaled men in every aspect, especially given the fact that they had to do it hidden, in fear of recognition.

But, more than just putting the armor on, the two characters shared very beautiful transformation from shieldmaiden motif to womanhood. Again, we witness that transformation in Eowyn from the first hand:

‘I stand in Minas Anor, the Tower of the Sun,’ she said; ‘and behold! the Shadow has departed! I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren.’ (Return of the King)

Eowyn’s future with Faramir is known. She married him and gave him a child, exchanging the life of warrior with the life of mother. A very similar transformation we see happened in Lyanna. From the girl that fought for Howland over someone who opposed the social norms to the mother (assuming she indeed is Jon’s mother). Both women shared more than just desire to fight and interest in men’s business, they actually shared life path. And to discover Lyanna’s full story, we can look at Eowyn as the archetype of the girl she was and woman she became before her death.

Flowery, seasonal and metallic imagery in Eowyn and Lyanna’s stories

One of the most important imageries in the storyline of these two characters is certainly winter flowers. What is for Eowyn lily, for Lyanna is blue winter rose. The flower imagery is used to describe their femininity and beauty, and in Lyanna’s case to reveal possible outcome of her story. Let we start with the way Eowyn has been described:

When I first looked on her and perceived her unhappiness, it seemed to me that I saw a white flower standing straight and proud, shapely as a lily, and yet knew that it was hard, as if wrought by elf-wrights out of steel. Or was it, maybe, a frost that had turned its sap to ice, and so it stood, bitter-sweet, still fair to see, but stricken, soon to fall and die?

The prominent flower in Lyanna’s story is blue winter rose. Rhaegar crowned Lyanna with the crown of blue winter roses in Harrenhal, and possibly the same crown she was holding the last time she spoke to Ned and made him promise her. Blue rose in ASOIAF figures also in Bael the Bard story, where the rose is the symbol for Stark daughter Bael took with him.

While there is certain parallel between the usages of winter flowers in their respective storylines, the symbolism is somewhat different. While the Eowyn’s lily represents her beauty, pride and endurance and is a symbol of her maidenhood, GRRM’s rose has more adult, romantic and even sexual meaning. The blue rose doesn’t just symbolize the winter beauty of Stark women, but also the forbidden love and its fruits – Bael’s son in his story, Jon in Lyanna’s. Wonderfully interwoven with flowery imagery are also passing of the winter and metallic comparison.

Both Eowyn and Lyanna are described as daughters of the winter. Eowyn is firstly described as “fair and cold, like a morning of pale spring that is not yet come to womanhood”. The Harrenhal tourney happens in the year of the false spring. The passing of the winter seems to mirror the growth and change in heart of these two ladies. For Eowyn, winter has passed, and with spring, she is healed and she transforms from warrior maiden to young woman in love. From someone infatuated in Aragorn as the ideal of heroism to someone who truly loves a man. Lyanna’s story was certainly bloodier than Eowyn’s, but it passes through the same thing. In the year of false spring, Lyanna was a maiden, she-wolf, KotLT, cold abiding lady of her time, but as winter passes, she changes, falls in love and actually becomes a mother. Unfortunately, just as those winter roses grow throughout the winter and spring is their death, so it was for Lyanna. In that these two characters are opposed to each other, for as Eowyn finds the happiness, Lyanna welcomes death.

Lastly, the very powerful comparison can be made in metallic imagery used in description of the two women:

Slender and tall she was in her white robe girt with silver; but strong she seemed and stern as steel, a daughter of kings. (Two Towers)

You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert. You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. (A Game of Thrones)

Metallic imagery here is used as symbol of strength, will and endurance. Ned’s comparison even uses it to talk about Lyanna’s coldness and generally her nature, as Aragorn’s description is to emphasize the dual nature of that tender flower – its beauty and the endurance to survive in harsh winter. For the strength here is not only the physical attribute, but also the psychological characteristics. In Eowyn’s case it meant to endure all the sorrow and malice she lived to see, and in Lyanna’s to describe the harshness of her wolf-blood and break the image Robert has of her: an ideal, obedient woman.

Beautiful, strong and independent, these two characters represent the archetype of women’s strength as perceived a while ago. Alas, the time of the shieldmaiden has passed, and the strength of women is demonstrated with far less masculine traits. Nevertheless, Eowyn of Rohan and Lyanna Stark share a lot, the setting, the appearance and interests, growth and even the motifs used in their narrative. So much is unknown about Lyanna, and given that we discuss the parallels with Eowyn, allow me to finish this piece with the quote hoping that answer will be found in future installments of ASOIAF:

But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?

[The Ned's Little Girl]

A wonderful essay, Mladen; I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

[Ygrain]

But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?

An excellent analysis but this is the part I like best, summarising, IMHO, how both were trapped by conventions which they eventually defied. There are a lot of valid points which I haven't realized before, e.g. the metal imagery, the only part where I slightly disagree is the parallel of falling for the image instead of the real man, as I believe that the story consistently hints at love between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Mladen]

A wonderful essay, Mladen; I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

An excellent analysis but this is the part I like best, summarising, IMHO, how both were trapped by conventions which they eventually defied. There are a lot of valid points which I haven't realized before, e.g. the metal imagery, the only part where I slightly disagree is the parallel of falling for the image instead of the real man, as I believe that the story consistently hints at love between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Thank you ladies...

Well, Ygrain, I do believe that at the end Lyanna/Rhaegar story was the story of love, that she indeed loved him and that is the major departure from Eowyn. However, we don't know how it all began. Was she really capable of falling in love with someone she objectively didn't know? As I said before, falling for a prince does seem to run in Stark women gene pool, but the argument can be made that love, the true love Lyanna undoubtedly felt at the end, came a bit later. I think that in Harrenhal, we can't speak of true love, anymore than we can speak of Sansa feeling true love for Joffrey in AGoT. It was simply the passionate infatuation mixed with the idea of getting out the arranged marriage that could have drawn Lyanna to Rhaegar.

[Knight Of Winter]

With that many parallels floating around, I wonder how much of it was intentional? How much did Eowyn (sub)consciously inspire GRRM's creation of Lyanna? In particular, this quote:

‘What do you fear, lady?’ he asked. ‘A cage,’ she said. ‘To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.’

could have very easily be taken straight out of Lyanna's inner monologue.

Great essay, Mladen, pointing out plenty of interesting comparisons between two characters from various universes. What I find interesting is speculating how would Lyanna's story conclude if it wasn't abruptly cut by her death? Eowyn found a man she loved and settled into a role she was apparently content with - she certainly didn't feel in cage in her marriage. I'm curious how would Lyanna's story progress in case she didn't die in childbirth? Or, if RR didn't happen, how much happiness would she find being Rhaegar's mistress / second wife?

[Annara Snow]

Thank you ladies...

Well, Ygrain, I do believe that at the end Lyanna/Rhaegar story was the story of love, that she indeed loved him and that is the major departure from Eowyn. However, we don't know how it all began. Was she really capable of falling in love with someone she objectively didn't know? As I said before, falling for a prince does seem to run in Stark women gene pool, but the argument can be made that love, the true love Lyanna undoubtedly felt at the end, came a bit later. I think that in Harrenhal, we can't speak of true love, anymore than we can speak of Sansa feeling true love for Joffrey in AGoT. It was simply the passionate infatuation mixed with the idea of getting out the arranged marriage that could have drawn Lyanna to Rhaegar.

You may be right that she was motivated at first more by a desire to escape an unwanted marriage, but I'm sure that there was an attraction there, too - obviously, not deep love straight away, though I do think she loved him, what with her clutching those blue roses on her death bed. I've always thought it was supposed to be an "opposites attract" kind of thing, where they were drawn to qualities the other had that were also very different from the traits of their partners/intended partners. Lyanna obviously didn't love Robert or like the idea of marrying him*; the Harrenhal tournament story as told by Meera offers a sharp contrast between the drunken fratboy Robert, and the melancholy, artistic Rhaegar, whose songs drew the romantic, sensitive side in Lyanna. On the other hand, Lyanna was passionate, plucky, determined and vital, the complete opposite of Rhaegar's wife Elia, who he felt friendly love for not romantic love. And, this may also be important - very different from Rhaegar's mother, who is described as a dutiful woman by Barristan.

* I've seen fans ask: "How was Lyanna supposed to be so mature and understand men?" regarding her comments on Robert (love does not change a man)? Maybe from observing her brother Brandon, who seems to have been a womanizer just like Robert?

It's interesting that, although people usually see the Starks as "ice" and the Targaryens as "fire", Lyanna was the one with a 'fiery' personality, while Rhaegar seems to have had a more 'icy' one, withdrawn and melancholy. Another example to show that symbolism is not cut and dry in this series.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

And the time has come to move on... I have been really excited to present you with this piece, which hopefully you will enjoy reading. With this essay, I conclude the discussion about Lyanna, and moving to other she-wolves of the North. So, after long writing process I give you:

Comparative analysis of winter flowers: Eowyn of Rohan and Lyanna Stark

*snip

Mladen, I just want to say thank you for this! This is a beautiful analysis of two fascinating female characters. From the shield maiden motif to flower imagery you have perfectly captured the parallels between these two female characters. While I'm sure we all know that GRRM far outpaces Tolkien in his understanding and creation of female characters, Eowyn has always fascinated me. Accusations of chauvinism leveled at Tolkien, it seems to me, cannot be true when he writes lines like this:

‘What do you fear, lady?’ he asked. ‘A cage,’ she said. ‘To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.’

This is a lovely testament to the struggle of a free spirited woman in a man's world, and one I'm sure resonated with GRRM as he created his own "shield maiden"

I'd like to say that I also find the Rhaegar and Aragorn comparison fascinating, as it reveals yet a new way of looking at Martin's character, and at the possibilities of the relationship between R+L that we know so little about.

As usual, spot on and enjoyable reading! :)

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

For a very long time, this board has dwelled on the idea that what connected Rhaegar and Lyanna was a love story, or at least desire to fulfill prophecy on Rhaegar’s side. Recently, I have been pointed in different direction. The question is that although we can conclude that what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna can be called love story, can we indeed say the same for its beginning? What was the true motivation behind Lyanna’s decision to elope? Was it love or perhaps something else?

While there is enough evidence to assume that there was some attraction, a case can be made that Lyanna was motivated by her desire not to marry Robert. With her discontent of the bound future, it isn’t crazy to assume that she perhaps sought help from the person that could have helped her – Crown Prince. Lyanna’s escape certainly ended as tragic love story, but Rhaegar could have been Lyanna’s way out of her arranged marriage just as she was his way of fulfilling the prophecy.

Though I think Rhaegar and Lyanna is very much a love story, I too think Lyanna had reasons besides love to get involved with Rhaegar. It reminds me of Jon and Ygritte (among the various ASOIAF relationships, and IMHO I think Jon and Ygritte is the most comparable to Rhaegar and Lyanna).

Overall, this was a great read! Thank you for pointing out so many details and similarities with Lyanna and Eowyn I had overlooked!

[Mladen]

You may be right that she was motivated at first more by a desire to escape an unwanted marriage, but I'm sure that there was an attraction there, too - obviously, not deep love straight away, though I do think she loved him, what with her clutching those blue roses on her death bed. I've always thought it was supposed to be an "opposites attract" kind of thing, where they were drawn to qualities the other had that were also very different from the traits of their partners/intended partners.

I have always considered that Rhaegar and Lyanna share a love story, but this essay (and a help from a very good friend) allowed me to explore what was happening at the beginning. We can talk about possibilities about Lyanna falling for Rhaegar on the first sight, something like Sansa with Joffrey, but I am not certain anymore that love was her only motivator to escape. And just like Joffrey represented adventure, life from songs for Sansa, we can argue that Rhaegar represented possible new life for Lyanna. On the initial note, I doubt that Lyanna felt anything more real than Sansa for Joffrey, or continuing the essay, anything Eowyn felt for Aragorn. So, in a way I think that Rhaegar in Eowyn/Lyanna parallel represent the intersection between Aragorn and Faramir. Starting with desire for something new, and ending with true love for Lyanna.

And, this may also be important - very different from Rhaegar's mother, who is described as a dutiful woman by Barristan.

I am not quite certain what to think about this... Ever since Illyrio said that Aerys didn't trust Rhaella, I am thinking that there must be something more to her. I have a theory or two, but alas, nothing confirmed or even slightly corroborated with the text.

Mladen, I just want to say thank you for this! This is a beautiful analysis of two fascinating female characters. From the shield maiden motif to flower imagery you have perfectly captured the parallels between these two female characters. While I'm sure we all know that GRRM far outpaces Tolkien in his understanding and creation of female characters, Eowyn has always fascinated me. Accusations of chauvinism leveled at Tolkien, it seems to me, cannot be true when he writes lines like this:

‘What do you fear, lady?’ he asked. ‘A cage,’ she said. ‘To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.’

This is a lovely testament to the struggle of a free spirited woman in a man's world, and one I'm sure resonated with GRRM as he created his own "shield maiden"

I'd like to say that I also find the Rhaegar and Aragorn comparison fascinating, as it reveals yet a new way of looking at Martin's character, and at the possibilities of the relationship between R+L that we know so little about.

As usual, spot on and enjoyable reading! :)

Thank you so much, Lady Gwyn... To quote Cate Blanchett, "coming from you, it exacerbates this honor and blows it right out of the ballpark" :)

As someone whose favorite characters as a kid have always been women from Galadriel and Eowyn to Minerva McGonagall, I am deeply interested in analyzing those characters not only through the spectrum of feminist agenda, but through the deep notion of discovering something rather beautiful and unique in women men sometimes misses. And finding out the nuances of the women in literature, wherever they come from, I believe, truly made me a better man.

Yeah, the possibilities of R+L are indeed limitless, but I think that through these motifs, parallels and analyses, we can come closer to some conclusions. I feel like we are slowly taking down the veil of mystery from that pair and understanding them better. I can say that working on this essay truly made me feel much more acquainted with Lyanna than I was.

Though I think Rhaegar and Lyanna is very much a love story, I too think Lyanna had reasons besides love to get involved with Rhaegar. It reminds me of Jon and Ygritte (among the various ASOIAF relationships, and IMHO I think Jon and Ygritte is the most comparable to Rhaegar and Lyanna).

Overall, this was a great read! Thank you for pointing out so many details and similarities with Lyanna and Eowyn I had overlooked!

Thank you, HBtS... I know that on Rethinking Romance, some people had done the comparison between Jon/Ygritte and Rhaegar/Lyanna, so I believe that you can find some interesting data about your great parallel there...

[Chatty Duelist]

*clap clap clap*

Very well done.

[Mladen]

Time for announcements...

In many personal conversations I had with some of you, several questions have been risen and I thought I might do a service to all of us by making some short answers and announcements of the sort...

1. Regarding Catelyn. I do see her as a she-wolf, or at least Southerner who adopted the Northern identity.Thus, I changed my plans, and from Lyanna, the next essay will focus on Catelyn and her Northern identity, or at least, identity as Catelyn Stark. My interest in this character has always been great, and I have done personal reread of her chapters, and chapters where she has prominent role and is mentioned, but, currently, I have no plans of turning that into a thread, because of abundance of projects I have at the moment. Furthermore, given that this project has been envisioned as adjacent to the Wolf project, some overlapping is to be expected. Thus, I decided to move entire Catelyn discussion here, as her essay will also discuss the she-wolf symbolism and parallels. Lastly, Cat essay will be posted on Friday.

2. Some of you were interested in other female characters in the series and whether I will do something like this for other regions. The answer is yes. This thread was never meant to be alone, and in several days, I will open another thread which will discuss Dornish women. I believe that Dorne, just like North, gives us great deal of female characters that are complete delight for analysis. Also, in the future, you can expect some.

3. I know I am slow... Between job, private life and other hobbies, I sometimes simply don't have time or energy to create something meaningful. I do believe that some of you recognize the effort and the job that is put in each of the essays, especially given that English is not my native and that thus I am a bit limited in things I want to say. But, hopefully, I think that I will end this thread in satisfactory way.

That being said, see you on Friday, with hopefully nice piece about Catelyn Stark. Until then...

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

2. Some of you were interested in other female characters in the series and whether I will do something like this for other regions. The answer is yes. This thread was never meant to be alone, and in several days, I will open another thread which will discuss Dornish women. I believe that Dorne, just like North, gives us great deal of female characters that are complete delight for analysis. Also, in the future, you can expect some.

As a new fan who's totally in love with the ASoIaF women, the North, and Dorne, I'll be waiting! Loved everything I've read on the thread so far. :)

[LordStoneheart]

What can I say about Catelyn... I'm not too familiar with writing in these kinds of analysis threads but I'll do my best.

It's Catelyn's strength I adore above all. So often dismissed as "emotional," I like how even through the events of her tragic life past aGoT she manages to be a headstrong woman who takes initiative at nearly every turn. I find "emotional" a very lazy and close-minded criticism because that's what humans are. There's no decision that goes through someone's mind that doesn't rely on emotion. Catelyn's chapters were always a favorite of mine because of the way she balanced emotion versus... pragmatism? Might not be the right word. It really was a constant internal struggle with her between family, duty, and honor, and I've never once given her flack for mostly choosing the first. Just as the Capitoline Wolf mentioned on page one depicts motherhood, I feel that Catelyn was both a loving and ferociously protective mother. So many times she puts herself in danger for the purpose of protecting/further her family. From fighting the assassin in Bran's chambers all the way to the fateful wedding when she takes a hostage and bargains for the last light in her life, she is constantly fighting for her family.

One of my favorite interpretations I've read since going on this forum was a mere passing sentence. Someone pointing out that the rumors of a monstrous She-Wolf terrorizing the Riverlands could both be a direct reference to Nymeria who we as readers know is out there somewhere, and a dark foreshadowing of her new arc as Lady Stoneheart. As you may have guessed from my name and my constant defending of my Lady, I am completely entranced with what Catelyn has become. It's a polarizing plot point, but nothing in the series has made me feel as good as when I read her name in the epilogue of aSoS. No lie, after Catelyn's last chapter I frantically flipped through the rest of the book's chapter headings, hoping that I'd read it wrong. The rest of the book was tainted with such a bad feeling because I was in complete and utter shock that she died. I still cared about Robb, but there would be no more Catelyn chapters for me to enjoy. This is why I love Lady Stoneheart so much. If Catelyn was a She-Wolf, Stoneheart is the rabid result of provoking a ferocious animal. This comparison sounds negative considering the connotation, but Stoneheart to me is like dog with rabies, except she has already died. so many fans of Catelyn hate this, but I revel in it. There are many times I've made the argument that Stoneheart still has a lot of Catelyn in her, but not all. It's the same with Arya and Sansa who are nowhere near the same children they were in the beginning, but at the core they still are Arya and Sansa Stark. I'm not optimistic that Stoneheart will meet a good end, or at least something that could be considered a "good" end. But of all the things I am waiting for most, is the conclusion of one of the book's strongest women, and just how far she will get in her vengeance.

As for Catelyn's Northern Identity, well, I think we're actually witnesses to Catelyn fully embracing it from her first introduction onwards. In her first chapter, she is very aware of how different the Old Gods are to Southerners. She never liked the Godswood, I think is the intro we get to her. But slowly over the course of book one we see her faith go in interesting places. In her very last aGoT chapter she visits Robb in the Riverrun Godswood and contemplates the gods she believes in. She says she wouldn't know what to say if someone asked her. This is after the death of Ned, so I think some doubt about gods and fate is realistic. Later she tells Robb that she fully believes the Old Gods or something has sent the Starks their wolves. In her last moments she swears by the Old Gods and New during her hostage bargain. Post-death, it would seem to some that she's taken up the Red God since Beric is the one that passed on the kiss of life to her, but I see no evidence other than that. Thoros may still be a Red Priest, but Stoneheart seems quite fascinated by her son's crown in her last chapter. The crown with the runes of the First Men.

One thing that's quite interesting to me because of my interest in vengeance, is the way people often hate Lady Stoneheart because she's "seeking vengeance" and is stupid or small-minded for doing so. Yet a lot of others acknowledge the Freys have called upon them a plague by breaking guest right. I'm not sure what the Faith of the Seven have to say about guest right, but according to Old Nan guest right is unforgivable by the Old Gods... but vengeance is a man's right. (Rat Cook story.)

I hope I did well. :D

[ShadowCat Rivers]

1. Regarding Catelyn. I do see her as a she-wolf, or at least Southerner who adopted the Northern identity.Thus, I changed my plans, and from Lyanna, the next essay will focus on Catelyn and her Northern identity, or at least, identity as Catelyn Stark. My interest in this character has always been great, and I have done personal reread of her chapters, and chapters where she has prominent role and is mentioned, but, currently, I have no plans of turning that into a thread, because of abundance of projects I have at the moment. Furthermore, given that this project has been envisioned as adjacent to the Wolf project, some overlapping is to be expected. Thus, I decided to move entire Catelyn discussion here, as her essay will also discuss the she-wolf symbolism and parallels. Lastly, Cat essay will be posted on Friday.

I'm very glad you decided to analyse Catelyn! Looking forward to read your essay!

I hope I did well. :D

You did well :)

I find Lady Stoneheart very interesting as well, but I see her more as an allusion to classic ghost stories, where a soul that has been terribly wronged can't get rest until justice is done, or, at least, there is a resolution that's relatively fair.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

I hope I did well. :D

Indeed, yes you did well. If you should ever decide to write a more lengthy analysis - or anything at all about Catelyn, really - please do. I would love to read more of your thoughts about her.

[Bea_Stark]

Wonderful, OP! I loved your essay on She-wolves. Looking forward to reading the other pieces you'll post.

I agree with you about ASOIF and feminism. And I have to say, I was never a fan of Sansa, but I think reading your analysis of her made me realize some very interesting characteristics she has that I simply had not paid so much attention to before.

[Mladen]

As for Catelyn's Northern Identity, well, I think we're actually witnesses to Catelyn fully embracing it from her first introduction onwards. In her first chapter, she is very aware of how different the Old Gods are to Southerners. She never liked the Godswood, I think is the intro we get to her. But slowly over the course of book one we see her faith go in interesting places. In her very last aGoT chapter she visits Robb in the Riverrun Godswood and contemplates the gods she believes in. She says she wouldn't know what to say if someone asked her. This is after the death of Ned, so I think some doubt about gods and fate is realistic. Later she tells Robb that she fully believes the Old Gods or something has sent the Starks their wolves. In her last moments she swears by the Old Gods and New during her hostage bargain. Post-death, it would seem to some that she's taken up the Red God since Beric is the one that passed on the kiss of life to her, but I see no evidence other than that. Thoros may still be a Red Priest, but Stoneheart seems quite fascinated by her son's crown in her last chapter. The crown with the runes of the First Men.

This was nicely written post, LordStoneheart... Since we are waiting that piece of Catelyn, I thought of continuing debate, until my vacation starts and I actually sit down after a month of delay and finish the essay.

Regarding Catelyn's Northern identity, it is pretty clear who she is. And she is a Southerner. Catelyn's adoption of Northern identity has always been through her children. The prime of her Northern identity is actually in the powerful motherhood motif strongly connected with she-wolf in its fierceness and protectiveness. Strangely, she parallels Cersei in this, but lioness and she-wolf are different animals, just as Cersei and Catelyn are two completely different personalities. Catelyn does mimic Capitoline she-wolf in the dual nature, but mostly in her motherhood. The she-wolf symbolism in Catelyn, unlike in Sansa and Arya, is revolving around her being mother to these 5 wolf pups.

That being said, it certainly doesn't take or even negate the fact that Catelyn is getting closer and closer to what Ned felt and believed in, But Catelyn perfectly united her "family, duty, honor" Tully roots with Stark she-wolf symbolism. That is perhaps why she is one of the rare married female in the seires who is known for both her maiden and married last name.

Wonderful, OP! I loved your essay on She-wolves. Looking forward to reading the other pieces you'll post.

I agree with you about ASOIF and feminism. And I have to say, I was never a fan of Sansa, but I think reading your analysis of her made me realize some very interesting characteristics she has that I simply had not paid so much attention to before.

Thank you so much, Bea. These pieces need ages to write, especially when those pesky real life obligations are on our way, but I do feel that, especially with Sansa, there is so much to tell about Northern women. Hope you will stay and give input on anything that is written. It will be appreciated.

[igotthatsummerhallsadness]

Great analysis. I enjoyed the read. :cheers:

[Aryya Stark]

I thoroughly enjoyed this thread and was hoping there would be more. The essays were very well written as well as all the analysis done. With regard to Catelyn though I am not sure I can agree on her being a good mother. I think the most neglected child from the beginning of series was Rickon, a boy of three.