[BOOK SPOILERS] Watching the show if it overpasses the books [Part 2]

[Le Cygne]

That's a good point about tone, there's no way that would be the same.

[binga]

Please just do an alternate ending. After Winds of Winter is done, come up with their own ending. I would love to have an ending where the bad guys "win". We could compare and contrast endings with the book.

[aFeastForDragons]

Please just do an alternate ending. After Winds of Winter is done, come up with their own ending. I would love to have an ending where the bad guys "win". We could compare and contrast endings with the book.

Ramsey Bolton the newly appointed Hand of the King took great satisfaction laying Light bringer, Longclaw and Dany's crown before the Iron Throne. King Euron smiled knowing his conquest for the seven kingdoms was now complete. He then declared Ser Frosty the Other as Warden of the North and ruler of Winterfell.

I'm not sure that ending would go down to well.

[Hath4]

and for good measure ramsay is flaying Tyrion in the tower of hand of the king. And he as taken on a new identity he is now reek

[Daske]

This. If we consider some of the material b&w come up with we're talking cheesy romances, dick jokes, torture porn, soft porn just to cite a few. There's the risk to go towards more cheap entertainment which isn't quite on on the same level to the book adaptation.

And yet book fans complained that Tormund wasn't making enough jokes about his member!

And there is plenty of porn in the books if you include in that generally nudity and sex for the sake of it that isn't furthering the storylines.

And is cutting someone's finger really torture porn? We don't see the many of the nastiest acts on screen which we would if it was really torture porn a la Hostel/Saw. There are far worse acts of violence in the books that the reader is 'forced' to read through.

Robb's romance wasn't as much cheesy as it was vanilla compared to the others.

That's not to say I think the show may have been a little better if they had cut or toned down some of this stuff, but let's not pretend much of what gets criticism in the show is wholly missing from the books.

I also think that the show has done plenty of good scenes off it's own back - the stag skinning scene, all Tywin/Arya, plenty of Tyrion/Bronn stuff, the fantastic Ned/Arya stairs and duelling scenes, and lots of other of the one-on-one 'quiet' scenes. Not every deviation had worked, and some have been 'meh', but some are real quality admired by fans, critics and newcomers alike. If the Arya-Tywin scenes were magically in the books they would be trumpeted as great GRRM scenes, highlights of that that storyline that everyone was looking forward to and would applaud afterwards if faithfully transcribed to screen.

I just think the latter books adaptations will miss those great 'I can't wait til that scene' moments of the earlier ones. I agree much of the success of the show is clearly from the source material, which when that dries up somewhat would be a worry going forward. But I think the show has grown in confidence, and I'm hopeful it can maintain quality because of rather than despite more invented scenes.

[The Anti-Targ]

Nope, won't watch the show once it gets past the books. The book is always better and I don't want the wonder of the unfolding story in the books to be ruined by foreknowledge gained from the TV series. I do wish they would be forced into doing a few "filler" seasons of Dunk and Egg or something, or write a Robert's Rebellion season of the main series catches up with the books.

And it's pretty much guaranteed that it will at this point. I can't believe GRRM won't get TWoW until after at least some story lines have hit the end of the currently published books. Several characters will run out of story line by the end of this season, and pretty much all will get to the end of aDWD by the end of Season 5. Which means even if GRRM gets tWoW out late 2014 there's no way he will get the next book out before the 2016 season airs.

[six]

And yet book fans complained that Tormund wasn't making enough jokes about his member!

Well, I wasn't one of them so my argument still stands. You can't group all book fans together, it doesn't work that way.

And there is plenty of porn in the books if you include in that generally nudity and sex for the sake of it that isn't furthering the storylines.

I don't really have a problem with sex scenes tbh, although the "play with her arse" scene was one of the most ridiculous turn offs I've ever witnessed. I was pointing out that b&w's own additions are quite often soft porn or dick jokes. If they have to add their own stuff, why not add a good scene a witty joke, or if they want porn add good porn. Their own material so far has usually not impressed me all that much.

And is cutting someone's finger really torture porn? We don't see the many of the nastiest acts on screen which we would if it was really torture porn a la Hostel/Saw. There are far worse acts of violence in the books that the reader is 'forced' to read through.

I was referring to Theon's scene in episode 3.7.

Robb's romance wasn't as much cheesy as it was vanilla compared to the others.

Eh? Google the definition of cheesy. It was very Titanic, very cliche, trite Hollywood romance. If that's the best sort of romance they can come up with, I am a bit worried indeed.

I also think that the show has done plenty of good scenes off it's own back - the stag skinning scene, all Tywin/Arya, plenty of Tyrion/Bronn stuff, the fantastic Ned/Arya stairs and duelling scenes, and lots of other of the one-on-one 'quiet' scenes. Not every deviation had worked, and some have been 'meh', but some are real quality admired by fans, critics and newcomers alike. If the Arya-Tywin scenes were magically in the books they would be trumpeted as great GRRM scenes, highlights of that that storyline that everyone was looking forward to and would applaud afterwards if faithfully transcribed to screen.

Some have been good. Re-read my post; I never wrote all was shit. That's why I wrote this

This. If we consider some of the material b&w come up with we're talking cheesy romances, dick jokes, torture porn, soft porn just to cite a few. There's the risk to go towards more cheap entertainment which isn't quite on on the same level to the book adaptation.

BIB: some.

With this said, again I wasn't majorly impressed by any of the scenes you mentioned. Tyrion/Bronn got tiring quickly and so did Arya/Tywin.

I just think the latter books adaptations will miss those great 'I can't wait til that scene' moments of the earlier ones. I agree much of the success of the show is clearly from the source material, which when that dries up somewhat would be a worry going forward. But I think the show has grown in confidence, and I'm hopeful it can maintain quality because of rather than despite more invented scenes.

Hopefully the quality will stay good, however since they won't have the books anymore, I think it's a legitimate concern. A change in tone imo will be a given, once they run out of book material.

[Daske]

Well, I wasn't one of them so my argument still stands. You can't group all book fans together, it doesn't work that way.

Yep, true. But my point is, it's unfair to level an accusation of the show leaning towards what you maybe fairly call 'cheap entertainment' in the added scenes (that contain dick jokes, torture scenes, soft porn etc) when they have left out quite a bit of that same 'cheap entertainment' from other scenes, storlines & characters from the books. Surely you should either level the accusation at both GRRM and the showrunners or neither, rather than just the latter in the added scenes.

Eh? Google the definition of cheesy. It was very Titanic, very cliche, trite Hollywood romance. If that's the best sort of romance they can come up with, I am a bit worried indeed.

Bleh, I don't need to Google 'cheesy', I survived many years without Google thanks! I just don't necessarily find a pretty-boy-meets-pretty-girl-and-they-fall-in-love-story cheesy. Whatever you may think of Robb-Talisa or Jon-Ygritte (which gets stick for having the most cheesiest of all scenes on The Wall) they are not Disney, and taken as a whole relationship to their ends both of these are far from smooshy love stories. Very far from it. But I can see why some don't like those scenes when there are dragons to be played with instead. Fair enough, I just think the scenes were done well on the whole and criticism that it's cheesy is way overboard.

Hopefully the quality will stay good, however since they won't have the books anymore, I think it's a legitimate concern. A change in tone imo will be a given, once they run out of book material.

My worry is the opposite, if they follow the latter books the show may grind down into a boring slog through slow, slow storylines with new characters few are interested in and just mildly interesting arcs and limited action. Losing audience as it goes. As a book fan I can live with that in the books up to a point, but I would rather on the show they forge on apace to a half-made-up but hopefully exciting end-game and jetison a lot if the extraneous material. Imo there is as much baggage to be dealt with from these later books as there is inspriration. But I think that the showrunners have earned the right to be trusted. They have after all overseen the creation & running of a phenomenon of a show, and that cannot be soley down to the source material alone.

[protar]

My worry is the opposite, if they follow the latter books the show may grind down into a boring slog through slow, slow storylines with new characters few are interested in and just mildly interesting arcs and limited action. Losing audience as it goes. As a book fan I can live with that in the books up to a point, but I would rather on the show they forge on apace to a half-made-up but hopefully exciting end-game and jetison a lot if the extraneous material. Imo there is as much baggage to be dealt with from these later books as there is inspriration. But I think that the showrunners have earned the right to be trusted. They have after all overseen the creation & running of a phenomenon of a show, and that cannot be soley down to the source material alone.

I think the problems with AFFC/ADWD will be solved just fine by combining them into one season. There's plenty of exciting events in there, it's just they were spread of 2000 pages and over a decade. If they get one of the Battles from the start of TWOW at the end of the season as well, then S5 will be the best yet imo. The only big issues are condensing Dorne and the Iron Isles.

[Le Cygne]

Hopefully the quality will stay good, however since they won't have the books anymore, I think it's a legitimate concern. A change in tone imo will be a given, once they run out of book material.

Yes, exactly. I was trying to say that, but you said it much better. The tone is a big thing to consider.

[D-Shiznit]

I won't be surprised if they completely cut Dorne and F-Aegon out. The Greyjoys might get gutted as well. The show's cast and characters are already bloated as is, putting the focus on main to semi-main charters might be the way they go.

[Mr Fixit]

I won't be surprised if they completely cut Dorne and F-Aegon out. The Greyjoys might get gutted as well. The show's cast and characters are already bloated as is, putting the focus on main to semi-main charters might be the way they go.

Dorne and Greyjoys are likely to get... downsized quite a bit. Aegon, on the other hand, not so sure. Depends on what George has in store for him. I think we'll be in a better position to judge in a few months. If the show opts to include him in S5, we'll definitely see some major foreshadowing in Season 4.

[Hath4]

Aegon is a big deal, like a bigger deal than Danny

he will take the iron throne, everything is set up for him to take it whether he is really who he says he is doesn't matter. not to include him would be pretty much talking the books and lighting them and burning them. he will not last on the throne but he will take it. Euron and Vic are also major characters who can not be cut.

[D-Shiznit]

In this show there is no bigger deal than Emilia's Dany, only Peter's Tyrion comes close.

D&D are going to do what they think is best for the show and it's aduience, they aren't going to short change their golden goose for a guy who will mean very little to the show audiences after they have spent half a decade investing in Dany.

As for staying faitful to the books? who cares aside from the book nerds who make up a fraction of the GoT fanbase. The show is going to overtake the books, D&D will do what they think is best, even GRRM has been saying for the past year that the show's ending might be different than his.

[Le Cygne]

As for staying faitful to the books? who cares aside from the book nerds who make up a fraction of the GoT fanbase. The show is going to overtake the books, D&D will do what they think is best, even GRRM has been saying for the past year that the show's ending might be different than his.

GRRM has sold an awful lot of books to be dismissing readers as a fraction of the fanbase.

(Added what I was responding to.)

[franko99]

Yes, most of it. And one thing is adapting the books for tv, and another is writing for tv from a bunch of notes and outlines, because some of twow might have been written but ados is really just an idea atm. I think the tone of the show might be a bit different once b&w are basically creating it from grrm's mind, rather than from actual, finished books.

My worry with the show being forced to stand on it's own two feet is that D+D aren't really very good writers in my opinion. Almost all that is good about the story and writing is from the books and almost all that is bad is invented material. In my opinion anyway. I'm concerned that without the source material and with more inventions the show will take a considerable turn for the worse, in terms of writing, plotting and gratuity.

I know a lot of people will want to flay me for what I'm about to say. but...

If season 7 or 8 comes before ADOS is even half done (and therefore D&D won't have any source material to adapt) I wish GRRM takes a sabbatical year from the books just to help writing the show, not just 1 episode, but work alongside D&D to give us a satisfying ending for his story (which apparently will come first in TV than the books).

I mean, I will gladly wait one more year to read the book if that give us a good ending for this story

[D-Shiznit]

GRRM has sold an awful lot of books to be dismissing readers as a fraction of the fanbase.

Comapred to GoTs worlwide live audience plus the biggest pirated fanabse in the world? Yes, it is a fraction of the fan base.

[Hath4]

The reason why game of thrones has been as good as it's been is because for the most part it has followed the books and has remained faithful. I don't see that changing as long as their is source material to use. There will be cuts made to affc / awd. Those cuts will be subplots as has been the case In previous years. to cut out whole major story lines would be stupid.

[Khal-a-bunga]

I think it's important to consider the amount of characters the show will have lost between both seasons three and four when thinking about who is likely to be included in seasons five and beyond. And there are a lot, both major and minor.

That said, I can definitely see the Iron Islands story line getting cut down a lot more than the Dornish thread.

I also think fAegon & Connington are pretty much guaranteed to show up. Some have speculated that they can be introduced in Pentos when Tyrion arrives, and I think that's a pretty good idea. A lot of Tyrion's travels are sure to be excised or thoroughly condensed, though. For the better, I'd say.

As for the Iron Born, Euron & Victarion should definitely make the cut. Aeron, at least for the moment, seems expendable. Maybe something will happen in The Winds of Winter or A Dream of Spring (if he makes it that far) that would require him to be cast, but I kind of doubt it. The kingsmoot can be altered to the extent necessary that Aeron & Yara not being present dictates (perhaps just a crowing ceremony for Euron as the king of the Iron Islands, and establishing Victarion's relationship with his brother), and act as an introduction to the Crow's Eye and Vic. As I said, of the two major new(-ish) locations, this is the one I think will get pared down considerably, though I expect it will definitely have a presence.

There's been too much build-up of Dorne for the writers to be considering its jettison. It's referenced quite often, Myrcella has already been sent there, and with the introduction of Oberyn & Ellaria next season... So yeah, Arianne and Doran are definitely making the cut. Hotah, not so much. Maybe as a large background extra wielding an ax.

It's possible that Ellaria will take the place of Nymeria on the Small Council, and there may even be a couple Sand Snakes cast (that act as anything more than glorified extras, like Areo). Tyene Sand (being disguised as a septa and traveling to King's Landing) and Sarella Sand (if they plan on implementing the happenings down in Old Town where she's 'playing a game') would be my choices.

It's even possible that Quentyn makes the cut, though I think his particular sub-plot could be heavily condensed. Show him in his introduction scene, no more than two traveling scenes (one in Volantis), and finally his big moment. It would make for an interesting little side-story for the Dornish plot, wouldn't eat up much screen-time, and would ultimately tie in with Dant's story line.

In any case, I expect Dorne to be a pretty big addition to the show in the fifth season. It's a unique location, with a unique culture, interesting characters, and there's a lot of political intrigue going on here that would work well on-screen (and contrast nicely with the way things are done in King's Landing).

With enough smart cutting and condensing, it should be easy to portray how interconnected all of these story lines are, so that the various developments within each story line help to flesh out the others.

[Ignorant Bog Woman]

Since they probably won't have the final two books to adapt in detail, they'll be working off outlines at best (I assume). In that case, I can't see them doing more than a season per book after the AFFC/ADWD adaptation.

I expect it to go like this:
Season 5 - AFFC/ADWD

Season 6 - TWOW
Season 7 - ADOS