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[BOOK SPOILERS] Watching the show if it overpasses the books [Part 2]


Stubby

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For me, when I say he may not finish the series, I'm not talking about his health. I'm talking about if there's actually going to be 2-3 books left and GRRM knows how to close the story. I get the feeling that deaths and Winter will result in more characters and plots arising, which will result in the series being a total of 10+ books long instead of the 7-8, which seems pretty impossible to do for any author.

That is so speculative that it's pretty funny if you're really mentioning it seriously.

If TWOW comes out next year, GRRM turns 68 in 2016. Probably looking at another 6 years before ADOS is released. That would make him 74. That is actually a long life for somebody his size.

And then there is already the chance he needs an extra book. There is the chance that once the show is released he slows down his pace even more.

It just isn't looking good right now.

I'm just going to leave the man to write his books and stop worrying about him finishing them. This type of talk gets so impersonal at a point too, I can understand why he is taking his time.

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Happily. It's closure, and I feel it's past time. I can work the show ending into the book ending (if there ever is one). I've been combining the show and books into one story in my head anyway, so closures what I crave. I can get the richness of the story and the visual splendor of the show all in once, and it makes me much happier then the books ever will.

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I'm just going to leave the man to write his books and stop worrying about him finishing them. This type of talk gets so impersonal at a point too, I can understand why he is taking his time.

It's not impersonal. It is reality. The reality is that most logical fans did the math and knew 2 years ago that he was never going to finish before the show.

And him taking his time has nothing to do with the fans. There are three reason. 1) He has enjoyed his fame. 2) Likely either lost some interest in writing the series. 3) He is getting stuck trying to write it.

#3 is the most crucial. He did a few things with the series that got him in trouble. First, he used a 1st person chapter structure. It worked great while building the series but now he is having a really hard time trying to finish it without adding way too many pointless characters. Books 4 & 5 ignored the main characters for a bunch of side content that didn't really push the story forward. Second, I think a lot of people could write a series where everything went into complete chaos like what happened by the end of ASOS. The reason why they don't is because how do you turn it around and write a good ending from there? All that shock value came at a price, and we are now seeing the effects of it.

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It's not impersonal. It is reality. The reality is that most logical fans did the math and knew 2 years ago that he was never going to finish before the show.

And him taking his time has nothing to do with the fans. There are three reason. 1) He has enjoyed his fame. 2) Likely either lost some interest in writing the series. 3) He is getting stuck trying to write it.

#3 is the most crucial. He did a few things with the series that got him in trouble. First, he used a 1st person chapter structure. It worked great while building the series but now he is having a really hard time trying to finish it without adding way too many pointless characters. Books 4 & 5 ignored the main characters for a bunch of side content that didn't really push the story forward. Second, I think a lot of people could write a series where everything went into complete chaos like what happened by the end of ASOS. The reason why they don't is because how do you turn it around and write a good ending from there? All that shock value came at a price, and we are now seeing the effects of it.

I agree about his adding too many POVs. He should have stuck with the POV characters he had and just simplified the story in such a way that they would not be necessary. We see that the show is going to take this route, and while some people are upset by the loss of characters like Arianne, the Greyjoys or Quentyn, I'm overjoyed. They should have never been necessary in the first place if Martin had been more focused.

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I agree about his adding too many POVs. He should have stuck with the POV characters he had and just simplified the story in such a way that they would not be necessary. We see that the show is going to take this route, and while some people are upset by the loss of characters like Arianne, the Greyjoys or Quentyn, I'm overjoyed. They should have never been necessary in the first place if Martin had been more focused.

Yeah, the show is going to correct a lot of wrongs from the last 2 books. Some purists will complain, but the change has to be done for television.

Personally, I think GRRM has a wonderful idea for the ending of this series. I just think he got completely lost after ASOS on how to connect the dots from the middle the end.

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Yeah, the show is going to correct a lot of wrongs from the last 2 books. Some purists will complain, but the change has to be done for television.

Personally, I think GRRM has a wonderful idea for the ending of this series. I just think he got completely lost after ASOS on how to connect the dots from the middle the end.

Actually, I think he knew what he wanted to do with the middle, but that all of the different storylines made it impossible for him to stay streamlined and do what he wanted to do. So he had to expand it further to do it.

Which is a good reason not to have 20 POVs in a story. Quentyn, for example, was absolutely unnecessary. The important parts of his story could have been told through other people's POVs.

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Actually, I think he knew what he wanted to do with the middle, but that all of the different storylines made it impossible for him to stay streamlined and do what he wanted to do. So he had to expand it further to do it.

Which is a good reason not to have 20 POVs in a story. Quentyn, for example, was absolutely unnecessary. The important parts of his story could have been told through other people's POVs.

Pretty much. Look at how much story Martin covers without introducing (too many) additional PoVs in the first three books. I mean really, Oberyn becomes an instant fan favorite without a PoV, but then we suddenly need Arianne AND Areo AND Arys AND Quentyn to accomplish some minimal plot progression that amounts to little more than prologue for Winds.

I really believe a meat cleaver should have been brought down on FeastDance with extreme prejudice, hacking and slashing mercilessly until Martin's editor, poor Anne Groell, ends up in maximum security prison for wanton murder of multiple fictional characters.

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Pretty much. Look at how much story Martin covers without introducing (too many) additional PoVs in the first three books. I mean really, Oberyn becomes an instant fan favorite without a PoV, but then we suddenly need Arianne AND Areo AND Arys AND Quentyn to accomplish some minimal plot progression that amounts to little more than prologue for Winds.

I really believe a meat cleaver should have been brought down on FeastDance with extreme prejudice, hacking and slashing mercilessly until Martin's editor, poor Anne Groell, ends up in maximum security prison for wanton murder of multiple fictional characters.

So do you think AFFC & ADWD could have been one book after all of the edits? If he did that, then Book 6 would have been released in 2011 and then he could have raced the clock to get the final book out before the end of the series....

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So do you think AFFC & ADWD could have been one book after all of the edits? If he did that, then Book 6 would have been released in 2011 and then he could have raced the clock to get the final book out before the end of the series....

I absolutely believe it could (and should) have been. I think he simply bit off more than he could chew by adding so many characters over time.

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I haven't been on these forums for nearly two years, but I found my post in the first version of this thread:

What seemed like a nightmarish possibility back then, for some at least, now seems like a near certainty, especially in light of some recent news.

I just wonder, is there even any point in deciding to not watch the show for those of us who would really prefer to read the books first? Avoiding spoilers on the internet and in real life seems a fool's errand considering the ridiculous popularity of the show. I mean, I could see how you could avoid them, if you didn't mind getting a bit extreme in avoiding things like forums and social media for years at a time.

But no matter how much one tries, all it takes is one spoiler, and we are talking about the most popular show on TV.

So does that mean that us "book purists" basically have the choice of either spoiling the ending of the books for ourselves, or most likely expending a lot of effort in order to not have them spoiled for us? Damned if you do, damned if you don't?

Pretty much. If there is any solace, it's that despite D+D's claims that they're sticking to the ending of the books, they are apparently cutting out large swathes of TWOW. The Aegon plotline, and by extension Arianne, is gone. And it seems so is the Ironborn plot. Other plotlines like Oldtown and such may be cut as well. Clearly there will be large differences between book and show. D+D's idea of a faithful ending may not match yours or mine.

At this point they must be viewed as entirely separate entities. And it's incredibly sad that such a promising adaptation was turned into fan fiction, but it comes with the silver lining that even if the future seasons will spoil the books, there will also be so many things not from the books that much of the surprise will be preserved.

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Pretty much. If there is any solace, it's that despite D+D's claims that they're sticking to the ending of the books, they are apparently cutting out large swathes of TWOW. The Aegon plotline, and by extension Arianne, is gone. And it seems so is the Ironborn plot. Other plotlines like Oldtown and such may be cut as well. Clearly there will be large differences between book and show. D+D's idea of a faithful ending may not match yours or mine.

At this point they must be viewed as entirely separate entities. And it's incredibly sad that such a promising adaptation was turned into fan fiction, but it comes with the silver lining that even if the future seasons will spoil the books, there will also be so many things not from the books that much of the surprise will be preserved.

The main ending will be the same. The biggest reveals. That's enough for me.

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Protar, all those characters may be cut, but we'll still know the fates of most of the main characters who are already introduced or will be introduced in the show like Tyrion, Jaime, Arya, Theon, Sansa, Dany, Jorah, Ser Barristan, Cersei, Stannis, Melisandre, Jon Snow, Littlefinger, Varys, Margarey, Olenna, Davos, Bran, Rickon, Meera, Hodor, Walder Frey, Edumure, the Blackfish, Sam, Gilly, Mance Raydar, Tormund, Asha/Yara, Bronn, Doran, Myrcella, the High Sparrow etc. If they die in the show, most likely the die in the books too, and vice versa.


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Pretty much. If there is any solace, it's that despite D+D's claims that they're sticking to the ending of the books, they are apparently cutting out large swathes of TWOW. The Aegon plotline, and by extension Arianne, is gone. And it seems so is the Ironborn plot. Other plotlines like Oldtown and such may be cut as well. Clearly there will be large differences between book and show. D+D's idea of a faithful ending may not match yours or mine.

At this point they must be viewed as entirely separate entities. And it's incredibly sad that such a promising adaptation was turned into fan fiction, but it comes with the silver lining that even if the future seasons will spoil the books, there will also be so many things not from the books that much of the surprise will be preserved.

I wouldn't call it fan fiction. I would call it being realistic by D&D. Season 5 will have The Wall, Winterfell, The Vale, King's Landing, Dorne, Braavos, & Meereen. There is a chance we might get some of Pentos as well. They already pushed some activity from beyond the wall with Bran until season 6.

There is no way they can also add in all of the stuff from The Iron Islands, Aegon, Riverrun, and potentially other locations.

What we will get is the story arcs of the main characters the story started with. A lot of the side stories will either being removed or condensed in order to move along the main characters. Would it be nice to have The Iron Islands and Aegon? Absolutely! It would also confuse fans of the show only because there are too many plots. And it would slow down the pacing of the show just like it did with the books.

And don't get your hopes up about the books being finished. If GRRM was already working slow when he had the show on his tail, imagine his pace and motivation once the main plot lines are spoiled.

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I absolutely believe it could (and should) have been. I think he simply bit off more than he could chew by adding so many characters over time.

Totally agreed. I think in a lot of ways the TV series will show the best (coherent and streamlined) way to tell the story Martin wanted to tell. After all, they basically have a change to re-edit Martin's work, avoiding the mistakes he did.

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The show and the books are entirely different entities.

That doesn't mean they won't be using Martin's ending, though.

Nor does it mean that people can't enjoy getting the ending from the show instead of waiting god knows how long for the books to finally finish.

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Is there anybody that does not plan on watching the show starting this season because of spoilers? So many have claimed that in the past but now that the time has finally come when the show will begin seriously pushing into the unpublished material, I am curious to find out whether it was all a lot of posturing.


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