[BOOK SPOILERS] Watching the show if it overpasses the books [Part 2]

[ADanceWithCats]

I really think that cutting these plots has less to do with time, and more to do with a lack of confidence on D+D's part. They don't want the plot to be too confusing for viewers, it's pandering to the lowest common denominator. If they where actually interested in as faithful an adaptation as possible, they could have taken advantage of the reduction, and consolidation of plot lines in S4, to introduce some more AFFC/ADWD material then. Which they did to some extent, but could have done much more, i.e with the Ironborn.

I wouldn't call it, 'lack of confidence'. More like, 'artistic choice'. To me, a lot of ADWD especially is either badly plotted or overplotted, and would definitely benefit from some heavy editing, and I think the showrunners might have a similar view.

They aren't interested in a faithful adaptation because they probably think (and I, personally, agree) that a faithful adaptation would be pretty... well, boring. Instead, they are taking the bits that are cool, and stringing them together differently.

[HouseHarrison]

We're living in some zombie Game of Thrones now. Everything is so corrupted and dumbed-down it doesn't feel like the same story anymore.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I honestly think that with a little more effort, the show could have covered all the plot lines in the book. There's simply been so many filler scenes throughout season's 2, 3 and 4 that the cutting of huge, important plot lines cannot really be justified. And I'm also dubious as to how faithfully the main plot lines can be adapted a.) without large portions of DWD/TWOW. and b.) with D+D constantly changing them as well.

I really think that cutting these plots has less to do with time, and more to do with a lack of confidence on D+D's part. They don't want the plot to be too confusing for viewers, it's pandering to the lowest common denominator. If they where actually interested in as faithful an adaptation as possible, they could have taken advantage of the reduction, and consolidation of plot lines in S4, to introduce some more AFFC/ADWD material then. Which they did to some extent, but could have done much more, i.e with the Ironborn.

Pandering to the lowest common denominator? You must be trolling.

Dance and Feast would make shit TV, they make shit books! I'll miss Arianne (who Dorne should be seen through, not Sand Snakes, but since Sand Snakes offer a lot of diversity, then I'm all for it too) and I'll miss the kingsmoot but I won't miss Victarion. Nor Aeron. Nor Arys. They are an indication of how this author has let this series get away from him. He always complained to people when he was working in TV and how they made him trim his plots, and now he is realising why they never let him write so big to begin with.

[sj4iy]

Maybe travesty was harsh, but as someone who devoted what? over a decade to the series, it seems like a bit of a slap in the face to have a show reveal the ending before I can read it. As I said, I don't watch the show & will do my best to avoid spoilers, but its become very popular & it may be unavoidable. I guess I'm just frustrated that the series becoming a television show wasn't enough cncouragement to actually finish the books in a timely manner.

It's just a book series. A hobby. I understand it's frustrating, but in the end, it is what it is, and nothing is really going to change it. I'm sure we can throw around blame, but it won't help.

Honest question: if for whatever reason it was a fact that the books would never finish (Martin announces he's quit or whatever), would you watch the show to find out the ending?

[protar]

Pandering to the lowest common denominator? You must be trolling.

Dance and Feast would make shit TV, they make shit books! I'll miss Arianne (who Dorne should be seen through, not Sand Snakes, but since Sand Snakes offer a lot of diversity, then I'm all for it too) and I'll miss the kingsmoot but I won't miss Victarion. Nor Aeron. Nor Arys. They are an indication of how this author has let this series get away from him. He always complained to people when he was working in TV and how they made him trim his plots, and now he is realising why they never let him write so big to begin with.

Condensed together AFFC/ADWD could have made for a very exciting season of television. Instead D+D have opted to just cut huge swathes of it out. But this wouldn't be necessary. If you shift the Ironborn plot line back to S4, you can have a S5 that combines Feast and Dance but has the same amount of plot lines as the show usually does. In terms of main plot-lines you've got:

• Kings Landing
• Meereen
• The Wall
• The North
• Dorne
• The Vale
• Tyrion's travels
• Braavos

The Kingsmoot would have been in S4. The travelogues for Quentyn and Victarion could be cut, instead just getting too them when they reach Slaver's Bay. You can cut a few extraneous characters from Tyrion's travels - namely Duckfield, Half Maester and Yandry and Ysilla. Jaime's travelogue in the Riverlands could likewise be cut. Instead Brienne comes to him in KL (which also makes his abandoning Cersei more immediate.). Bran's could be mostly put on the back burner, with just a few episodes perhaps linking to him speaking to Theon through the Weirwoods. With some real trimming you could finish the season with the battle of fire.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

It's just a book series. A hobby. I understand it's frustrating, but in the end, it is what it is, and nothing is really going to change it. I'm sure we can throw around blame, but it won't help.

Honest question: if for whatever reason it was a fact that the books would never finish (Martin announces he's quit or whatever), would you watch the show to find out the ending?

Good perspective question!

Like you, I can separate the show & book, so I will continue to watch the show. There are so many storyline differences now (and looks like more to come) between the two, that even if the end game is the same, the journey will be MUCH different.

And it is the journey that you remember most when it is all over.

[protar]

It's just a book series. A hobby. I understand it's frustrating, but in the end, it is what it is, and nothing is really going to change it. I'm sure we can throw around blame, but it won't help.

Honest question: if for whatever reason it was a fact that the books would never finish (Martin announces he's quit or whatever), would you watch the show to find out the ending?

Yes I would. Because if I do choose to stop watching the show, it will be to avoid spoilers (though it's probably futile to try and avoid them, so I'm hoping that D+D's changes will disguise the events from the books). If it was guaranteed that there was no ending coming from Martin, there would be no reason to avoid the show.

[Hiram McDrogon]

And it is the journey that you remember most when it is all over.

We can hope! Battlestar Galactica, The Sopranos, The Wire, yeah, the journey is what I remember, although I've come to the conclusion that the series ending of The Sopranos is tied for best ever with the ending of the second Newhart show, the one in the ski lodge.

I didn't hate the ending of BSG, nor did I love it, but it didn't retroactively diminish all the time I'd spent enjoying the show.

And then there was Lost ... yes, I loved that journey, but alas that's not what I remember now. And that's the nightmare scenario for me for the ending of Game of Thrones/Ice & Fire, both books and show.

I don't think a book's ending has ever made me regret reading, although there have certainly been a few series that I've quit reading because they didn't seem to be going anywhere.

[Moondancer]

Is there anybody that does not plan on watching the show starting this season because of spoilers? So many have claimed that in the past but now that the time has finally come when the show will begin seriously pushing into the unpublished material, I am curious to find out whether it was all a lot of posturing.

Here! :)

(I expect to be seriously tempted by the various spoiler threads... But, hey - I can always rely on some fine, entirely wrong, as they come, interpretations/changes of the plot, made by the posters. Really, no harm.)

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Condensed together AFFC/ADWD could have made for a very exciting season of television. Instead D+D have opted to just cut huge swathes of it out. But this wouldn't be necessary. If you shift the Ironborn plot line back to S4, you can have a S5 that combines Feast and Dance but has the same amount of plot lines as the show usually does. In terms of main plot-lines you've got:

• Kings Landing
• Meereen
• The Wall
• The North
• Dorne
• The Vale
• Tyrion's travels
• Braavos

The Kingsmoot would have been in S4. The travelogues for Quentyn and Victarion could be cut, instead just getting too them when they reach Slaver's Bay. You can cut a few extraneous characters from Tyrion's travels - namely Duckfield, Half Maester and Yandry and Ysilla. Jaime's travelogue in the Riverlands could likewise be cut. Instead Brienne comes to him in KL (which also makes his abandoning Cersei more immediate.). Bran's could be mostly put on the back burner, with just a few episodes perhaps linking to him speaking to Theon through the Weirwoods. With some real trimming you could finish the season with the battle of fire.

Cut Aegon completely is the best way to go. Aegons a waste of space anyway, since we know he cant win. Cut Quentyn and Victarion completely. Quentyn killing slaves and Vic killing prostitues doesn't make compelling trlevison, and neither are compelling characters. We don't need Tyrions travels at all, just him and V Yates, and whatever he does once he reaches a Meereen. James going to Drne, expanding upon their storyline, while the riverlands will be Briennes foray. What they are doing is condensing Dance and Feast, and cutting the unnecessary stuff too. While aspects such as kingsmoot and queen maker are exciting television, they aren't essential. Kingsmoot probably won't happen, but we still get Greyjoy action (plenty of tot) and Dorne misses Arianne and Quentyn (thankfully in regards to the latter) but with Jaime and more fleshed out Sand Snakes (who were honestly ridiculous in the books) plus Doran and Aero, it's exciting stuff. By putting Arianne into Ellaria and the Snakes, we still get the full story. It's too late for ironborn plot lines in S4, but Balon dying and Asha becoming queen is more then enough.

As for Meereen I want another Ghiscari besides Hizdhar, but set fire to Danys story and give us the ashes, and it will still be more interesting then the books events.

[The One And Only]

Condensed together AFFC/ADWD could have made for a very exciting season of television. Instead D+D have opted to just cut huge swathes of it out. But this wouldn't be necessary. If you shift the Ironborn plot line back to S4, you can have a S5 that combines Feast and Dance but has the same amount of plot lines as the show usually does. In terms of main plot-lines you've got:

• Kings Landing

Meereen

The Wall

The North

Dorne

The Vale

Tyrion's travels

Braavos

The Kingsmoot would have been in S4. The travelogues for Quentyn and Victarion could be cut, instead just getting too them when they reach Slaver's Bay. You can cut a few extraneous characters from Tyrion's travels - namely Duckfield, Half Maester and Yandry and Ysilla. Jaime's travelogue in the Riverlands could likewise be cut. Instead Brienne comes to him in KL (which also makes his abandoning Cersei more immediate.). Bran's could be mostly put on the back burner, with just a few episodes perhaps linking to him speaking to Theon through the Weirwoods. With some real trimming you could finish the season with the battle of fire.

There wasn't enough room in Season 4 to add the Iron Islands stuff. It seemed like every episode was packed with good stuff. The season was so busy that Sansa wasn't even in the last 2 episodes.

The funny thing is that you are also telling them to cut a bunch of chapters from the books.

Books 4 and 5 are almost unfilmable as is. I guess they could be filmed but they would bore people. Changes had to be made. And it seems like D&D have a good idea on what to cut.

[ADanceWithCats]

Condensed together AFFC/ADWD could have made for a very exciting season of television.

Ah, so you don't want a totally faithful adaptation, either, you simply would prefer D&D to cut different things than they did. And because they chose differently than what you'd like, they are 'pandering to the lowest common denominator'? Nope. They simply aren't pandering to you.

[protar]

Ah, so you don't want a totally faithful adaptation, either, you simply would prefer D&D to cut different things than they did. And because they chose differently than what you'd like, they are 'pandering to the lowest common denominator'? Nope. They simply aren't pandering to you.

I think you missed my point. I would not ask for a completely faithful adaptation, because that is not possible. I would ask for a more faithful adaptation, which certainly was possible, but is not what we're getting. Certainly my proposal up there cuts not just different things than D+D are cutting, but a lot less, and that is the crux of my argument.

Cut Aegon completely is the best way to go. Aegons a waste of space anyway, since we know he cant win. Cut Quentyn and Victarion completely. Quentyn killing slaves and Vic killing prostitues doesn't make compelling trlevison, and neither are compelling characters. We don't need Tyrions travels at all, just him and V Yates, and whatever he does once he reaches a Meereen. James going to Drne, expanding upon their storyline, while the riverlands will be Briennes foray. What they are doing is condensing Dance and Feast, and cutting the unnecessary stuff too. While aspects such as kingsmoot and queen maker are exciting television, they aren't essential. Kingsmoot probably won't happen, but we still get Greyjoy action (plenty of tot) and Dorne misses Arianne and Quentyn (thankfully in regards to the latter) but with Jaime and more fleshed out Sand Snakes (who were honestly ridiculous in the books) plus Doran and Aero, it's exciting stuff. By putting Arianne into Ellaria and the Snakes, we still get the full story. It's too late for ironborn plot lines in S4, but Balon dying and Asha becoming queen is more then enough.

As for Meereen I want another Ghiscari besides Hizdhar, but set fire to Danys story and give us the ashes, and it will still be more interesting then the books events.

I'm afraid we're not going to come to any agreement if that is your attitude. Just to be clear on that. This is supposed to be an adaptation, not an original work, not an inspired by, an adaptation. Obviously some things must be cut for the sake of time, but the main plot points should be the same. I don't really care if you personally didn't like Aegon or the Iron Islands or whatever. It's fine if you didn't, but the point is that Martin dedicated a significant amount of time to them. So clearly they are important. Just because some form of the plot could exist without them, doesn't mean that isn't the case. I mean by that logic why not just cut out everything before the War for the Dawn? Have one neat season of Dany, dragon taming queen of Westeros, fighting the Others with Jon Snow of the Night's Watch (or whatever ends up happening in the last book).

Mark my words, these changes are not going to save any time, or at least not nearly as much as apologists think. Tyrion isn't going to be hanging out with Aegon and co., but he is going to be doing something with Varys. Arianne may not exist, but Dorne is still going to take up a lot of time etc. etc. When you cut out Aegon - who will clearly have a large role in TWOW (unless he falls and breaks his neck in the first hundred pages) - you have to create new story to sew together the hole you just ripped out of the narrative. Now that may save some time, but certainly all the characters will end up doing something in place of Aegon, even if it ends up taking slightly less screen time.

And another thing: Who says they need to wrap this up in 7 seasons? Why not 8? Or an extended seventh season? I know actors need to have their contracts renegotiated after 7 seasons, and so would demand more money - but enough to make the show unprofitable? And doesn't an extended, say 15 episode season 7 negate that?

There wasn't enough room in Season 4 to add the Iron Islands stuff. It seemed like every episode was packed with good stuff. The season was so busy that Sansa wasn't even in the last 2 episodes.

The funny thing is that you are also telling them to cut a bunch of chapters from the books.

Books 4 and 5 are almost unfilmable as is. I guess they could be filmed but they would bore people. Changes had to be made. And it seems like D&D have a good idea on what to cut.

This is laughable. Season's 3 and 4 have been filled to the brim with filler. If D+D weren't so obsessed with their own inventions they could easily have fit the Kingsmoot in S4, and that in turn would have allowed a lot of space in S5.

[shadow282]

Condensed together AFFC/ADWD could have made for a very exciting season of television. Instead D+D have opted to just cut huge swathes of it out. But this wouldn't be necessary. If you shift the Ironborn plot line back to S4, you can have a S5 that combines Feast and Dance but has the same amount of plot lines as the show usually does. In terms of main plot-lines you've got:

• Kings Landing

Meereen

The Wall

The North

Dorne

The Vale

Tyrion's travels

Braavos

The Kingsmoot would have been in S4. The travelogues for Quentyn and Victarion could be cut, instead just getting too them when they reach Slaver's Bay. You can cut a few extraneous characters from Tyrion's travels - namely Duckfield, Half Maester and Yandry and Ysilla. Jaime's travelogue in the Riverlands could likewise be cut. Instead Brienne comes to him in KL (which also makes his abandoning Cersei more immediate.). Bran's could be mostly put on the back burner, with just a few episodes perhaps linking to him speaking to Theon through the Weirwoods. With some real trimming you could finish the season with the battle of fire.

And it's great that you think that's possible. But since you have no idea about their budget, their possible shooting schedule, how difficult it would be to shoot in those locations, ect you're just guessing at what's possible. For instance, the Kingsmoot would have to be shot in a completely new location. Did you think of that? It also seems likely that the Riverlands will barely show up. Meaning that them also shooting there would increase the costs. And if they heavily condense Tyrion's travels, and god I hope they do, then extra shooting those would also take time, money, new locations, new cast members.

New actors for all the extraneous characters would also cost more money.

You have no idea what their budget is, and no idea how much your "simple changes" would cost. You also have no idea where the story is going. Saying "I can adapt this better than the people who know what is and isn't possible and where the story is actually going" is at best arrogant and at worst incredibly stupid.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

We can hope! Battlestar Galactica, The Sopranos, The Wire, yeah, the journey is what I remember, although I've come to the conclusion that the series ending of The Sopranos is tied for best ever with the ending of the second Newhart show, the one in the ski lodge.

I didn't hate the ending of BSG, nor did I love it, but it didn't retroactively diminish all the time I'd spent enjoying the show.

And then there was Lost ... yes, I loved that journey, but alas that's not what I remember now. And that's the nightmare scenario for me for the ending of Game of Thrones/Ice & Fire, both books and show.

I don't think a book's ending has ever made me regret reading, although there have certainly been a few series that I've quit reading because they didn't seem to be going anywhere.

I loved The Sopranos ending! I just remember thinking...WTF?!?!

The other show I remember a wild ride/journey was The Shield on FX.

I have faith that HBO will, at least, not ruin the adaptation...so I will continue to watch regardless...I'm too invested at this point.

[protar]

And it's great that you think that's possible. But since you have no idea about their budget, their possible shooting schedule, how difficult it would be to shoot in those locations, ect you're just guessing at what's possible. For instance, the Kingsmoot would have to be shot in a completely new location. Did you think of that? It also seems likely that the Riverlands will barely show up. Meaning that them also shooting there would increase the costs. And if they heavily condense Tyrion's travels, and god I hope they do, then extra shooting those would also take time, money, new locations, new cast members.

New actors for all the extraneous characters would also cost more money.

You have no idea what their budget is, and no idea how much your "simple changes" would cost. You also have no idea where the story is going. Saying "I can adapt this better than the people who know what is and isn't possible and where the story is actually going" is at best arrogant and at worst incredibly stupid.

This is the show apologists equivalent of saying "the lord works in mysterious ways." There's this absurd mind set that because D+D know more than us, that it makes them infallible. So sure, all fan proposals and predictions need to be taken with a grain of salt. But to dismiss them entirely on the grounds of "D+D are perfect they know what to do la la la" is a very naive, narrow minded, and uncritical way of thinking. Little frustrates me more than blind acceptance of someone just because they are a so called expert.

For example all of those locations I list are locations that are currently being used in the show. So your argument that somehow they wouldn't be able to afford them is completely nonsensical. And the show is casting new characters anyway. The Sandsnakes are at the moment far more extraneous than Arianne is for example. Casting her and just one Sandsnake for example would actually save money. And besides which, the show makes so much money that there is little beyond it's reach. The show's budget expands by millions every year and still seems sustainable.

[The One And Only]

I think you missed my point. I would not ask for a completely faithful adaptation, because that is not possible. I would ask for a more faithful adaptation, which certainly was possible, but is not what we're getting. Certainly my proposal up there cuts not just different things than D+D are cutting, but a lot less, and that is the crux of my argument.

I'm afraid we're not going to come to any agreement if that is your attitude. Just to be clear on that. This is supposed to be an adaptation, not an original work, not an inspired by, an adaptation. Obviously some things must be cut for the sake of time, but the main plot points should be the same. I don't really care if you personally didn't like Aegon or the Iron Islands or whatever. It's fine if you didn't, but the point is that Martin dedicated a significant amount of time to them. So clearly they are important. Just because some form of the plot could exist without them, doesn't mean that isn't the case. I mean by that logic why not just cut out everything before the War for the Dawn? Have one neat season of Dany, dragon taming queen of Westeros, fighting the Others with Jon Snow of the Night's Watch (or whatever ends up happening in the last book).

Mark my words, these changes are not going to save any time, or at least not nearly as much as apologists think. Tyrion isn't going to be hanging out with Aegon and co., but he is going to be doing something with Varys. Arianne may not exist, but Dorne is still going to take up a lot of time etc. etc. When you cut out Aegon - who will clearly have a large role in TWOW (unless he falls and breaks his neck in the first hundred pages) - you have to create new story to sew together the hole you just ripped out of the narrative. Now that may save some time, but certainly all the characters will end up doing something in place of Aegon, even if it ends up taking slightly less screen time.

And another thing: Who says they need to wrap this up in 7 seasons? Why not 8? Or an extended seventh season? I know actors need to have their contracts renegotiated after 7 seasons, and so would demand more money - but enough to make the show unprofitable? And doesn't an extended, say 15 episode season 7 negate that?

This is laughable. Season's 3 and 4 have been filled to the brim with filler. If D+D weren't so obsessed with their own inventions they could easily have fit the Kingsmoot in S4, and that in turn would have allowed a lot of space in S5.

A more faithful adaption? This is the most faithful adaption in the history of television.

As to your point about the adaption.... He actually originally planned a 5 year gap between ASOS and the next book. He just failed to figure out a way to do it with his story structure and the reader was left with a bunch of useless chapters.

And no they couldn't have fit the Kingsmoot into season 4. Like I said before, the season was so action packed that they couldn't even fit Sansa into the last 2 episodes.

[The One And Only]

This is the show apologists equivalent of saying "the lord works in mysterious ways." There's this absurd mind set that because D+D know more than us, that it makes them infallible. So sure, all fan proposals and predictions need to be taken with a grain of salt. But to dismiss them entirely on the grounds of "D+D are perfect they know what to do la la la" is a very naive, narrow minded, and uncritical way of thinking. Little frustrates me more than blind acceptance of someone just because they are a so called expert.

For example all of those locations I list are locations that are currently being used in the show. So your argument that somehow they wouldn't be able to afford them is completely nonsensical. And the show is casting new characters anyway. The Sandsnakes are at the moment far more extraneous than Arianne is for example. Casting her and just one Sandsnake for example would actually save money. And besides which, the show makes so much money that there is little beyond it's reach. The show's budget expands by millions every year and still seems sustainable.

I don't think it has anything to do with D&D knowing more then us.

It has everything to do with D&D giving us 4 of the best seasons of television and many of us have faith in them continuing this trend. It is just an added bonus that D&D know how the series will end so they can push the show in the right direction with their awesomeness.

Not sure why you are spending so much time talking about this series online if you hate it so much. Surely your time could be better spent on something you do like.

[protar]

A more faithful adaption? This is the most faithful adaption in the history of television.

As to your point about the adaption.... He actually originally planned a 5 year gap between ASOS and the next book. He just failed to figure out a way to do it with his story structure and the reader was left with a bunch of useless chapters.

And no they couldn't have fit the Kingsmoot into season 4. Like I said before, the season was so action packed that they couldn't even fit Sansa into the last 2 episodes.

I don't know about other television adaptations, but this is a terrible adaptation. An outright violation of trust so far as I'm concerned. You know Martin turned down a lot of potential adaptations, on the grounds that they wanted to only adapt certain plot lines? Well now D+D are doing exactly that. Large swathes of the book are being cut out, characters are completely different to how they where in the source material, and there are invented plot lines which don't save, but add time in virtually every episode. The rich, moral complexity of the series has been stripped away to the point where the general public is more likely to think of beheadings and prostitutes than intrigue when they think of the show. And despite claims that D+D are simply doing what they can to save time, the show continually suffers from a supremely slow and bloated mid-season. I cannot emphasise enough what an utterly abysmal adaptation this is.

And I stand by my belief that they could have fit the Kingsmoot in S4. Imagine for example, if Stannis hadn't been in most of S4, if they'd actually kept the surprise of where he'd gone. That, plus some more trimming of the very bloated filler scenes, and there would have been time aplenty. Sansa not being in the last two episodes had far more to do with the fact that her plot was finished, than due to time.

[ADanceWithCats]

I think you missed my point. I would not ask for a completely faithful adaptation, because that is not possible. I would ask for a more faithful adaptation, which certainly was possible, but is not what we're getting. Certainly my proposal up there cuts not just different things than D+D are cutting, but a lot less, and that is the crux of my argument.

No, I think you missed mine. You listed off the changes that you find acceptable in order for you to find the adaptation to be 'faithful'. You're not unhappy that you're not receiving a faithful adaptation, you're unhappy because you're not receiving an adaptation tailored to your wants. And you have the full right to feel unhappy about it. But my point is, you're not the arbiter of objectivity. So when you then try to push your views as somehow objectively better, or more important, that'd be pretty much offensive if it were not so risible.

Also, you refuse to acknowledge the possibility that people may be aware that the changes aren't done to save time, but due to an artistic choice. You say "Mark my words, these changes are not going to save any time, or at least not nearly as much as apologists think.". I say, "Yup, so what? I'm cool with that. If I like the story better, go hog wild." In a word: the story told by the books does not have to be the story most people have to like the most.

And many don't, judging by how many people are actually happy with a lot of the cuts. Go to the thread 'which changes would you like the show to make' and you'll see that actually, the changes the show is making are the changes a lot of people said they'd want.

e: And again, in the post above - 'abysmal' adaptation. Nope. Most people like it and most critics like it. That's a pretty good metric of a good adaptation. You just personally don't like it.

And once more, that's cool that you don't. Hatewatch and whine all you want. But don't try to push your views as the views of the intersubjective majority.