[BOOK SPOILERS] Watching the show if it overpasses the books [Part 2]

[protar]

Look at the locations in Season 5, and each location has a character that was there since the beginning:

1) The Wall - Jon Snow

2) Winterfell - Theon Greyjoy

3) The Vale - Sansa Stark

4) King's Landing - Cersei Lannister

5) Dorne - Jamie Lannister (Change For The Show)

6) Meereen - Dany Targaryen

7) Pentos (???) - Tyrion Lannister

8) Braavos - Arya Stark

Now you want them to introduce the Iron Islands and there is no main character to connect it to. Add in Aegon and a bunch of people there too?

This story is here to follow the main characters. That is it. If there is a way to avoid more characters being added and still get to the same points, D&D are going to do it.

So I'll ask again - do you think Martin would have taken up the offer if they'd told him they were going to do that? Maybe he would have but I doubt it. And so this is a breach of trust.

Besides which, The Iron Isles would have Asha, and Aegon and co. would have Tyrion. Even Dorne would have had Oberyn's ghost so to speak. And yes, Asha and Oberyn haven't been there since the start, but they are previously existing characters. The new characters introduced so far, especially Stannis (as poorly as he has been handled) have proven that audiences can relate to new locales and cast herds. You spread it out and it introduces new characters and locales at a good pace. Season 2 introduces Dragonstone and the Iron Isles, S3 Riverrun, S4 reintroduces the Isles, S5 Dorne and Aegon.

[protar]

It isn't easy to follow. It took me pausing the first season on blu-ray over and over in order to look up characters and family trees. Most other fans were the same way. It is an extremely complicated show, which is why it hasn't been done before.

Sometimes things need to be streamlined. If you can't understand that, no sure what else to tell you.

It really isn't that hard to follow at all. I personally had read the books first, but neither my friends nor my family who I introduced to the show had much confusion. Which isn't to say there weren't a couple things missed, especially names. But it's all perfectly manageable. I believe in assuming the audience is intelligent. And if you do that, people will rise to the challenge and you will have an intelligent audience. That's how critically acclaimed fiction is made.

[Dragon's Daughter]

Assuming that they have to wrap it up in 7 seasons, the show has about 30 hours of screen time left. It took them four seasons to get through three books, more or less, yet they have three seasons to get through four unless they are able to convince HBO to give them an even higher budget for season(s) 8+. Never mind the fact that a lot of the plots from AFFC & ADWD would be expensive because they require more actors, more sets, and probably more crew or a longer filming schedule if they spend a ton of time travelling.

This isn't even starting on the fact that some things we have not yet seen are already going to be very expensive to film. If we look at the Dance 2.0, it would involve more just about everything and a ton of CGI to pull it off well. Yet, if Aegon is just going to be introduced in 5 and killed in 6, it would be a very expensive undertaking for minimal output. It would be awesome to see, but I can see how the decision was made to cut it. If introducing him, doing the Dance 2.0, etc will just result in the same end (more or less) as him NOT showing up and there NOT being a second Dance, it really does make sense not to include it. Yes, it would be nice if they could put everything in but since they don't have unlimited screen time or unlimited resources when creating the show, it really does offer an easy storyline to cut.

I do agree that having the leadership change in the Iron Islands at the end of Season 4 would have made more sense though. Killing Balon and making Asha queen could have been done in a very short period of time if they are cutting Theon's uncles. You cut the stupid Yara-goes-to-the-Dreadfort clip and replace it with Balon's death and get rid of Tyrion's weird rambling about the simple Lannister cousin and show Asha getting crowned (or Euron, if he's needed) and bam. Same amount of time, but cutting two pointless scenes.

[The One And Only]

So I'll ask again - do you think Martin would have taken up the offer if they'd told him they were going to do that? Maybe he would have but I doubt it. And so this is a breach of trust.

Besides which, The Iron Isles would have Asha, and Aegon and co. would have Tyrion. Even Dorne would have had Oberyn's ghost so to speak. And yes, Asha and Oberyn haven't been there since the start, but they are previously existing characters. The new characters introduced so far, especially Stannis (as poorly as he has been handled) have proven that audiences can relate to new locales and cast herds. You spread it out and it introduces new characters and locales at a good pace. Season 2 introduces Dragonstone and the Iron Isles, S3 Riverrun, S4 reintroduces the Isles, S5 Dorne and Aegon.

Asha is not a main character. Every character I listed was around for episode 1 and is a main character in the books. And Aegon complicates things that don't need to be.

And yes, they can be introduced to new characters. But not when there is only 10 episodes and 8 different story lines.

Either way, this is how the show is going to go, and most people are happy about it.

[Dany4eva]

It really isn't that hard to follow at all. I personally had read the books first, but neither my friends nor my family who I introduced to the show had much confusion. Which isn't to say there weren't a couple things missed, especially names. But it's all perfectly manageable. I believe in assuming the audience is intelligent. And if you do that, people will rise to the challenge and you will have an intelligent audience. That's how critically acclaimed fiction is made.

I had to do a lot of explaining to my friends who watch the show and I would say they are all pretty intelligent and successful in life.

[shadow282]

This is the show apologists equivalent of saying "the lord works in mysterious ways." There's this absurd mind set that because D+D know more than us, that it makes them infallible. So sure, all fan proposals and predictions need to be taken with a grain of salt. But to dismiss them entirely on the grounds of "D+D are perfect they know what to do la la la" is a very naive, narrow minded, and uncritical way of thinking. Little frustrates me more than blind acceptance of someone just because they are a so called expert.

For example all of those locations I list are locations that are currently being used in the show. So your argument that somehow they wouldn't be able to afford them is completely nonsensical. And the show is casting new characters anyway. The Sandsnakes are at the moment far more extraneous than Arianne is for example. Casting her and just one Sandsnake for example would actually save money. And besides which, the show makes so much money that there is little beyond it's reach. The show's budget expands by millions every year and still seems sustainable.

Actually, that's called living in reality. And the reality is that they have constraints that you aren't aware of, and knowledge of the ending that you don't know. I'm not saying every change was good, or that every change they made was because of those two things. But it's incredibly arrogant to say that they need to include those things to make a good adaptation. You don't know what is and isn't possible, and what is and isn't necessary. Maybe they could have created the show that way. But it's entirely possible that they couldn't. You don't know, and I don't know. So making definitive statements about it just makes you seem like either an idiot or deluded.

If D+D want to make "artistic decisions" then they should have made their own show. Tearing up someone else's work, in a complete violation of their trust is not what good writers and artists do.

"Their" who?

[The One And Only]

It really isn't that hard to follow at all. I personally had read the books first, but neither my friends nor my family who I introduced to the show had much confusion. Which isn't to say there weren't a couple things missed, especially names. But it's all perfectly manageable. I believe in assuming the audience is intelligent. And if you do that, people will rise to the challenge and you will have an intelligent audience. That's how critically acclaimed fiction is made.

Even an intelligent audience doesn't want 12 story lines.

[The One And Only]

Assuming that they have to wrap it up in 7 seasons, the show has about 30 hours of screen time left. It took them four seasons to get through three books, more or less, yet they have three seasons to get through four unless they are able to convince HBO to give them an even higher budget for season(s) 8+. Never mind the fact that a lot of the plots from AFFC & ADWD would be expensive because they require more actors, more sets, and probably more crew or a longer filming schedule if they spend a ton of time travelling.

This isn't even starting on the fact that some things we have not yet seen are already going to be very expensive to film. If we look at the Dance 2.0, it would involve more just about everything and a ton of CGI to pull it off well. Yet, if Aegon is just going to be introduced in 5 and killed in 6, it would be a very expensive undertaking for minimal output. It would be awesome to see, but I can see how the decision was made to cut it. If introducing him, doing the Dance 2.0, etc will just result in the same end (more or less) as him NOT showing up and there NOT being a second Dance, it really does make sense not to include it. Yes, it would be nice if they could put everything in but since they don't have unlimited screen time or unlimited resources when creating the show, it really does offer an easy storyline to cut.

I do agree that having the leadership change in the Iron Islands at the end of Season 4 would have made more sense though. Killing Balon and making Asha queen could have been done in a very short period of time if they are cutting Theon's uncles. You cut the stupid Yara-goes-to-the-Dreadfort clip and replace it with Balon's death and get rid of Tyrion's weird rambling about the simple Lannister cousin and show Asha getting crowned (or Euron, if he's needed) and bam. Same amount of time, but cutting two pointless scenes.

It was 4 seasons for about 3 1/3 books. They got to the end of Sansa's storyline and almost all of Bran's. And the last 2 books have a lot of filler that even GRRM didn't expect to write when he started the series.

[ADanceWithCats]

And you know, D+D read Feast and Dance. If they didn't want to adapt them, they shouldn't have taken the offer to Martin in the first place. Do you think, that if D+D had come to Martin with the offer of adapting the first three books, but then skipping most of the next two, he would have taken up the deal? I'd bet a lot of money that his answer would have been no. So regardless of your subjective opinion on the latter two books, treating them as D+D are is a complete breach of trust.

They are not giving us a trimmed down version of books 4 and 5. They're giving us a decimated version.

These are not logical arguments. These are rhetorical arguments and wordplay. Stop that.

They are adapting the books. They are just trimming down more than you want, and for a very good reason - because the latter books are weaker.

If there's anyone D&D have a 'duty' to - actually, wait, no. I really hate putting it in these terms, and I don't have to. If there's anyone D&D have a contract with, it's with HBO, to earn them money. Indirectly, they also have an implied 'contract' with us, the audience, to provide us with entertaining content. These contracts - the real one and the figurative one, with us - are much more important than any 'duty' you may imagine they have to Martin.

Ergo, 1: if Martin had wanted to have a word-faithful adaptation like you speak of, it's he who should've included verbiage to that effect in the contract he signed with HBO. He didn't.

Ergo, 2: once again, you-the-part-of-the-audience might have preferred a different adaptation, but a lot of people are actually pretty fine with what's going on. And a lot actually prefer the changes. Hence, D&D are fulfilling their duty to us. And, obviously, their contract with HBO as well.

[Dragon's Daughter]

It was 4 seasons for about 3 1/3 books. They got to the end of Sansa's storyline and almost all of Bran's. And the last 2 books have a lot of filler that even GRRM didn't expect to write when he started the series.

Yeah. How they managed to get though all of theirs and are still stuck somewhere it the end of ASOS for Jon, I'm not entirely sure. I ended up feeling like they really wanted the battle to be episode 9 so they didn't move that plot forward to get the timing they wanted for their "big episode".

[shadow282]

So I'll ask again - do you think Martin would have taken up the offer if they'd told him they were going to do that? Maybe he would have but I doubt it. And so this is a breach of trust.

There's absolutely no reason to assume that GRRM wouldn't do it, or doesn't like the changes they have made, or that they didn't tell him the necessity of cutting out some of his books. GRRM has worked in television. Are you honestly sitting here and telling me you think he thought it was at all possible for them to completely and fully follow everything from the books? He doesn't strike me as that big a moron.

And either way, Feast/Dance are a horrid mess, and I hope to God that GRRM realizes that now. Who's to say he doesn't now wish he could go back and edit the shit out of that mess?

[Mark Antony]

I don't really have much faith in them adapting the "weaker books" well when they botched the strongest material (ASOS) with 20 hours to do it right

I'll still watch though cause I'm weak and I have zero faith in Martin to come out with more novels.

[protar]

Actually, that's called living in reality. And the reality is that they have constraints that you aren't aware of, and knowledge of the ending that you don't know. I'm not saying every change was good, or that every change they made was because of those two things. But it's incredibly arrogant to say that they need to include those things to make a good adaptation. You don't know what is and isn't possible, and what is and isn't necessary. Maybe they could have created the show that way. But it's entirely possible that they couldn't. You don't know, and I don't know. So making definitive statements about it just makes you seem like either an idiot or deluded.

"Their" who?

Their as in D+D. They want to do whatever they want, why didn't they make their own show?

It is perfectly true that D+D know more than you or I. But that doesn't mean they are infallible. We can use our good common sense to determine what works and what doesn't, and what they had time for a didn't. People have spent a good deal of time outlining how the show could have gone down. And apologists can only seem to discredit our arguments with lazy "D+D are all-knowing" arguments.

Also, I think the most absurd argument is that because D+D know how the books end, they have to change things to get to that ending. Like what? The ending is reached by what happens in the books. If you change the journey so drastically, you just end up having to write something else in place of it. It doesn't actually save much, if any time. We see this every year with the subplots. It's going to be the same on a macro level.

[Dragon's Daughter]

There's absolutely no reason to assume that GRRM wouldn't do it, or doesn't like the changes they have made, or that they didn't tell him the necessity of cutting out some of his books. GRRM has worked in television. Are you honestly sitting here and telling me you think he thought it was at all possible for them to completely and fully follow everything from the books? He doesn't strike me as that big a moron.

And either way, Feast/Dance are a horrid mess, and I hope to God that GRRM realizes that now. Who's to say he doesn't now wish he could go back and edit the shit out of that mess?

It makes me think of the 5th Harry Potter book. JKR has said she wishes she could go back and cut a lot of unnecessary filler/streamline that one better because it got out of control. I have the feeling George feels the same, especially since his year between AFFC & ADWD turned into 6 years. Clearly, he realized something wasn't working in that time.

[sj4iy]

I had to do a lot of explaining to my friends who watch the show and I would say they are all pretty intelligent and successful in life.

This. Think of how many chapters one episode covers in one hour. I think some people forget how long it take to read that many chapters. They certainly don't cover that much ground reading in one hour unless they are a speed reader. That's why it's difficult to keep up sometimes.

[ADanceWithCats]

I have the feeling George feels the same, especially since his year between AFFC & ADWD turned into 6 years. Clearly, he realized something wasn't working in that time.

The fun thing is, he could. AFFC/ADWD v.2.0.. Why the hell not? Wouldn't people read them? Especially if there was something like 'show that you have the book, get new version with a discount / free' thing.

e: Games are released all the time with just upgrades to graphics and the such. Why couldn't books?

e2: or (maybe not the best example, but) Star Wars.

[Mark Antony]

This. Think of how many chapters one episode covers in one hour. I think some people forget how long it take to read that many chapters. They certainly don't cover that much ground reading in one hour unless they are a speed reader. That's why it's difficult to keep up sometimes.

Yeah I contantly have to explain stuff to my unsullied brothers, it's a very hard series to keep track of

[protar]

These are not logical arguments. These are rhetorical arguments and wordplay. Stop that.

They are adapting the books. They are just trimming down more than you want, and for a very good reason - because the latter books are weaker.

If there's anyone D&D have a 'duty' to - actually, wait, no. I really hate putting it in these terms, and I don't have to. If there's anyone D&D have a contract with, it's with HBO, to earn them money. Indirectly, they also have an implied 'contract' with us, the audience, to provide us with entertaining content. These contracts - the real one and the figurative one, with us - are much more important than any 'duty' you may imagine they have to Martin.

Ergo, 1: if Martin had wanted to have a word-faithful adaptation like you speak of, it's he who should've included verbiage to that effect in the contract he signed with HBO. He didn't.

Ergo, 2: once again, you-the-part-of-the-audience might have preferred a different adaptation, but a lot of people are actually pretty fine with what's going on. And a lot actually prefer the changes. Hence, D&D are fulfilling their duty to us. And, obviously, their contract with HBO as well.

It is not trimming them down for good reason. D+D had read AFFC/ADWD before getting the rights to the show (IIRC they got some early access to ADWD? I may be making that up.). If they didn't think those books would make good television, they should have either a.) not adapted the series at all, or b.) been upfront that they where intending to cut huge portions of AFFC/ADWD. Which they clearly weren't given Martin's comments about them taking two seasons to adapt them. So regardless of the legality of the matter, that's incredibly shady and duplicitous business practice.

I'm not talking about legal contracts here. I think that when someone entrusts their work into your hands for adaptation, you have a "moral" (for want of a better word) obligation to remain faithful to that where possible, unless of course the original author is okay with a looser adaptation.

[The One And Only]

Yeah. How they managed to get though all of theirs and are still stuck somewhere it the end of ASOS for Jon, I'm not entirely sure. I ended up feeling like they really wanted the battle to be episode 9 so they didn't move that plot forward to get the timing they wanted for their "big episode".

Yeah it is slightly strange. A show only viewer asked me after the end of season 4 where they can start to read and I had a hard time explaining to them because they would sort of have to start in the middle of the 3rd book for Jon chapters. I'm sure they will catch up with him this season. The Wall,with all of its characters, will probably have the most screen time.

[protar]

There's absolutely no reason to assume that GRRM wouldn't do it, or doesn't like the changes they have made, or that they didn't tell him the necessity of cutting out some of his books. GRRM has worked in television. Are you honestly sitting here and telling me you think he thought it was at all possible for them to completely and fully follow everything from the books? He doesn't strike me as that big a moron.

And either way, Feast/Dance are a horrid mess, and I hope to God that GRRM realizes that now. Who's to say he doesn't now wish he could go back and edit the shit out of that mess?

If he wishes that, then that's a different matter. That way they would be respecting Martin's wishes even if the adaptation was less than faithful. It's very clear though that Martin was out of the loop for a long time about how much they where going to cut. He thought AFFC/ADWD would take up 2 to 3 seasons. The fact that D+D seem to have lied to him by omission is appalling.