[BOOK SPOILERS] Watching the show if it overpasses the books [Part 2]

[The One And Only]

It makes me think of the 5th Harry Potter book. JKR has said she wishes she could go back and cut a lot of unnecessary filler/streamline that one better because it got out of control. I have the feeling George feels the same, especially since his year between AFFC & ADWD turned into 6 years. Clearly, he realized something wasn't working in that time.

Slightly off topic, but that is why I laugh when people get mad at George Lucas for wanting to tinker with the Original Trilogy. Tolkien made changes to The Hobbit later in life. JKR wishes she made changes to Harry Potter. A lot of fans think GRRM should have changed up Books 4 & 5 differently.

It is hard when you are in the middle of the series to get everything right. The show has a wonderful viewpoint because they can see what has already been done and make any necessary changes.

[shadow282]

Their as in D+D. They want to do whatever they want, why didn't they make their own show?

It is perfectly true that D+D know more than you or I. But that doesn't mean they are infallible. We can use our good common sense to determine what works and what doesn't, and what they had time for a didn't. People have spent a good deal of time outlining how the show could have gone down. And apologists can only seem to discredit our arguments with lazy "D+D are all-knowing" arguments.

Also, I think the most absurd argument is that because D+D know how the books end, they have to change things to get to that ending. Like what? The ending is reached by what happens in the books. If you change the journey so drastically, you just end up having to write something else in place of it. It doesn't actually save much, if any time. We see this every year with the subplots. It's going to be the same on a macro level.

No, they're not. And nobody said they are.

Do you have experience in television? Budgets? Actor contracts? Licensing fees? Didn't think so.

People who say "The show could easily have added this!" live in a little bubble where all the things they want in the show are possible. And I'm sure it's a very nice bubble. It's probably pretty comfy in there.

This is the real world. There are constraints that you know nothing about. That's not being a show apologist, that's called life. And here, outside your safe little bubble, there are things that aren't possible. You don't know those. Stop making definitive statements about them.

http://screencrush.com/j-k-rowling-harry-potter-spinoff/

GRRM could have made that demand. He didn't. Which means that A) He, in his honest opinion, thought that they could make an excellent adaptation.

Or

B) He's so greedy that he didn't even care what they did with the books.

GRRM worked in television for years. He has experience in the field. If A, and if he actually thought that they could faithfully follow his books throughout, he's clearly a complete idiot. He strikes me as smarter than that. You?

[The One And Only]

It is not trimming them down for good reason. D+D had read AFFC/ADWD before getting the rights to the show (IIRC they got some early access to ADWD? I may be making that up.). If they didn't think those books would make good television, they should have either a.) not adapted the series at all, or b.) been upfront that they where intending to cut huge portions of AFFC/ADWD. Which they clearly weren't given Martin's comments about them taking two seasons to adapt them. So regardless of the legality of the matter, that's incredibly shady and duplicitous business practice.

I'm not talking about legal contracts here. I think that when someone entrusts their work into your hands for adaptation, you have a "moral" (for want of a better word) obligation to remain faithful to that where possible, unless of course the original author is okay with a looser adaptation.

Actually, this is wrong. They only had the 4 books when they approached GRRM. The 5th book wasn't released until a few years later.

I think a lot of people thought Book 4 was a misstep but thought GRRM had some master plan for the other one. Then it took him like 6 years to publish and fans realized the wait was probably more from a combination of procrastination and being lost in the story.

[The One And Only]

If he wishes that, then that's a different matter. That way they would be respecting Martin's wishes even if the adaptation was less than faithful. It's very clear though that Martin was out of the loop for a long time about how much they where going to cut. He thought AFFC/ADWD would take up 2 to 3 seasons. The fact that D+D seem to have lied to him by omission is appalling.

Now you are making things up. The 5th book wasn't out when they approached him about the series. So they couldn't have lied to him about how many seasons book 5 would have taken.

The only reason GRRM mentions 2 to 3 seasons for those books is because he is trying to have more time to write. It also shows how out of touch with reality he is. Anybody could tell you that there is absolutely no way that 3 seasons could come out of books 4 and 5.

[shadow282]

If he wishes that, then that's a different matter. That way they would be respecting Martin's wishes even if the adaptation was less than faithful. It's very clear though that Martin was out of the loop for a long time about how much they where going to cut. He thought AFFC/ADWD would take up 2 to 3 seasons. The fact that D+D seem to have lied to him by omission is appalling.

Really? They didn't tell him that? You, being GRRM or D & D, and so knowing every conversation they ever had? It's possible they told him and he forgot. It's possible it was just wishful thinking on his part. Again, stop making definitive statements on things that it is not possible for you to know.

Like his wishes. Unless your GRRM, you don't know them. So it's more likely than not that they're following some of the things he wished he could edit. Unless you actually think there's nothing he would change about them.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

This. Think of how many chapters one episode covers in one hour. I think some people forget how long it take to read that many chapters. They certainly don't cover that much ground reading in one hour unless they are a speed reader. That's why it's difficult to keep up sometimes.

This is why I wished there were 16 episodes a season as opposed to 10. But I'm not in control of their budget!

I also wouldn't mind an irregular viewing season. There were times there were 18 months between The Sopranos seasons. If they had the budget to film more in greater depth (which they didn't at first but might now) and increase the number of episodes per season, I wouldn't mind 16 episodes every 18-24 months. Or split up the seasons and show 8 episodes, break for 6-10 months then the other 8.

But, like my wife keeps telling me...I'm an odd duck!

[protar]

No, they're not. And nobody said they are.

Do you have experience in television? Budgets? Actor contracts? Licensing fees? Didn't think so.

People who say "The show could easily have added this!" live in a little bubble where all the things they want in the show are possible. And I'm sure it's a very nice bubble. It's probably pretty comfy in there.

This is the real world. There are constraints that you know nothing about. That's not being a show apologist, that's called life. And here, outside your safe little bubble, there are things that aren't possible. You don't know those. Stop making definitive statements about them.

http://screencrush.com/j-k-rowling-harry-potter-spinoff/

GRRM could have made that demand. He didn't. Which means that A) He, in his honest opinion, thought that they could make an excellent adaptation.

Or

B) He's so greedy that he didn't even care what they did with the books.

GRRM worked in television for years. He has experience in the field. If A, and if he actually thought that they could faithfully follow his books throughout, he's clearly a complete idiot. He strikes me as smarter than that. You?

Do you have extensive knowledge of television production? Your knife cuts both ways - if I cannot criticise the show because I don't know precisely what they can and can't do, you cannot praise it. How do you know that everything was adapted as faithfully as possible? Most of us here no little to nothing about TV production, but that doesn't mean we can't use our common sense. This is a huge show with a big budget, there is a lot that it can potentially do. When it pulls off huge CGI enhanced battles, the idea that it couldn't sustain one extra character or set is ridiculous. GoT is a huge money maker, I would be very surprised if at this point they didn't have the flexibility to stretch the budget by a bit if they wanted to add in an extra character or scene here and there. Hell, we know they can do that, that's exactly how Blackwater happened.

Comparing Martin's situation to JK rowling is not really applicable. As popular a series as ASOIAF was and is, it didn't reach the level of mania that HP did. She had a lot more control over adaptations than most authors get.

And as for Martin's knowledge of television, well it apparently didn't stop him thinking Feast and Dance would take two seasons.

[protar]

Really? They didn't tell him that? You, being GRRM or D & D, and so knowing every conversation they ever had? It's possible they told him and he forgot. It's possible it was just wishful thinking on his part. Again, stop making definitive statements on things that it is not possible for you to know.

Like his wishes. Unless your GRRM, you don't know them. So it's more likely than not that they're following some of the things he wished he could edit. Unless you actually think there's nothing he would change about them.

Well I assume that they didn't tell him unless he was lying in interviews. He said Feast and Dance would take multiple seasons whilst D+D clearly had intentions even then to adapt it in one. So clearly there was some miscommunication.

[ADanceWithCats]

I'm not talking about legal contracts here. I think that when someone entrusts their work into your hands for adaptation, you have a "moral" (for want of a better word) obligation to remain faithful to that where possible, unless of course the original author is okay with a looser adaptation.

You totally disregarded my point about the higher moral duty, to the audience, though. And, one could say, a business contract with HBO also carries a moral weight with it as well.

I have the feeling that they simply didn't discuss adapting these two books then, or maybe they did, and either side thought they would manage to convince the other later, but both were keen to sign the contract. Though it's funny how you read Martin on this. From the moment I read AFFC/ADWD, he felt to me clearly delusional - those books don't have two seasons in them.

e: And, of course, once again - business is business, and it's what's in the contract that matters.

[protar]

You totally disregarded my point about the higher moral duty, to the audience, though. And, one could say, a business contract with HBO also carries a moral weight with it as well.

I have the feeling that they simply didn't discuss adapting these two books then, or maybe they did, and either side thought they would manage to convince the other later, but both were keen to sign the contract. Though it's funny how you read Martin on this. From the moment I read AFFC/ADWD, he felt to me clearly delusional - those books don't have two seasons in them.

Well I'd probably agree, but it doesn't change the fact that Martin was apparently out of the loop for years. There's no excusing that miscommunication.

As for the contract with HBO/The audience, I don't see how this conflicts. I think a more faithful adaptation - i.e one that includes Arianne, Aegon, Kingsmoot etc. would make good television. In part because I think D+D are poor to mediocre writers who work better when they have someone else's material as a crutch.

[The One And Only]

Do you have extensive knowledge of television production? Your knife cuts both ways - if I cannot criticise the show because I don't know precisely what they can and can't do, you cannot praise it. How do you know that everything was adapted as faithfully as possible? Most of us here no little to nothing about TV production, but that doesn't mean we can't use our common sense. This is a huge show with a big budget, there is a lot that it can potentially do. When it pulls off huge CGI enhanced battles, the idea that it couldn't sustain one extra character or set is ridiculous. GoT is a huge money maker, I would be very surprised if at this point they didn't have the flexibility to stretch the budget by a bit if they wanted to add in an extra character or scene here and there. Hell, we know they can do that, that's exactly how Blackwater happened.

Comparing Martin's situation to JK rowling is not really applicable. As popular a series as ASOIAF was and is, it didn't reach the level of mania that HP did. She had a lot more control over adaptations than most authors get.

And as for Martin's knowledge of television, well it apparently didn't stop him thinking Feast and Dance would take two seasons.

The knife doesn't cut both ways. HBO has tons of experience at this. If they could do it, they would. The burden of proof is on you.

[ADanceWithCats]

As for the contract with HBO/The audience, I don't see how this conflicts. I think a more faithful adaptation - i.e one that includes Arianne, Aegon, Kingsmoot etc. would make good television.

Well, and once again we are back to, that's your opinion, in which you are against the majority of critics and audience. Hence, greater overall utility is gained by going against you on this.

[The One And Only]

Well I'd probably agree, but it doesn't change the fact that Martin was apparently out of the loop for years. There's no excusing that miscommunication.

As for the contract with HBO/The audience, I don't see how this conflicts. I think a more faithful adaptation - i.e one that includes Arianne, Aegon, Kingsmoot etc. would make good television. In part because I think D+D are poor to mediocre writers who work better when they have someone else's material as a crutch.

So the higher ups at HBO, who praised D&D for being fantastic writers.... are wrong? Despite having a lot of experience in this industry?

And 25th Hour is an example of poor to mediocre writing?

[protar]

The knife doesn't cut both ways. HBO has tons of experience at this. If they could do it, they would. The burden of proof is on you.

HBO is a company. They don't necessarily care about how faithful the show is so long as it makes money. And I doubt they micromanage it to that level. And D+D have their own ideas of what makes good TV.

Seriously, when you try to dismiss my arguments because I don't work in television, but then don't apply that logic to your own criticisms, it's hypocritical.

[Mark Antony]

Wtf do you expect the HBO execs to say about the show runners of their most successful show haha

[protar]

So the higher ups at HBO, who praised D&D for being fantastic writers.... are wrong? Despite having a lot of experience in this industry?

And 25th Hour is an example of poor to mediocre writing?

Funny thing about writing is it's subjective. I find D+D's writing to include a lot of cringe worthy dialogue, plot holes, sexism, and gratuitous fanservice. Doesn't matter how many people say it's good, or who. That's just appeal to authority.

[protar]

Well, and once again we are back to, that's your opinion, in which you are against the majority of critics and audience. Hence, greater overall utility is gained by going against you on this.

Critics praise the show because it strays from the books? No they don't. If anything the more faithful scenes garner more critical acclaim. And if you look at the Unsullied for example, a subset of show watchers, most of their complaints are targeted at things which - unbeknownst to them - where not in the books.

[The One And Only]

HBO is a company. They don't necessarily care about how faithful the show is so long as it makes money. And I doubt they micromanage it to that level. And D+D have their own ideas of what makes good TV.

Seriously, when you try to dismiss my arguments because I don't work in television, but then don't apply that logic to your own criticisms, it's hypocritical.

HBO has a long long long history of high quality programs. If they were on NBC, then you would have a point. HBO is a different beast.

[The One And Only]

Wtf do you expect the HBO execs to say about the show runners of their most successful show haha

They would just say they love the show. There is no reason to commend their writing skills unless it was true.

[ADanceWithCats]

Critics praise the show because it strays from the books? No they don't. If anything the more faithful scenes garner more critical acclaim. And if you look at the Unsullied for example, a subset of show watchers, most of their complaints are targeted at things which - unbeknownst to them - where not in the books.

Well then... we have arrived at an interesting hypothesis to verify, haven't we?

Let's see how this season does in the ratings - not on this site, where people are highly biased, but in general. Let's also see how people discuss the Sansa plot, which we know very little about, and which, therefore, may have 0-100% TWOW content.

If you're correct, the median of the E1-E8 episode ratings for this season should be statistically significantly lower with respect to the median for the previous seasons. (Let's take out E9-E10 of the equation, given that we know that this'll be almost 100% book material.) And people should be nearly unanimous in deciding which Sansa scenes are 'pure GRRM' or 'pure show'. Correct? We could establish a poll for each single scene.

Finally, we could analyse post-episode Twitter buzz on #got with respect to sentiment. If you're correct, sentiment should drop, right? Although f that, I'm not doing that.