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[BOOK SPOILERS] Watching the show if it overpasses the books [Part 2]


Stubby

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I don't think he is. He just keeps stating his opinion about the show which I assume is disappointing him. Not everybody who disagrees with you and have complete opposite view is automatically a troll.

I have been with the boards since the last few episodes of S2 and Protar been making similar complaints at the time. He has also given praise to the show including this past seasons.

Protar is arguing in good faith. You can disagree (and I have many times) but it is not trolling.

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It's just a book series. A hobby. I understand it's frustrating, but in the end, it is what it is, and nothing is really going to change it. I'm sure we can throw around blame, but it won't help.

Honest question: if for whatever reason it was a fact that the books would never finish (Martin announces he's quit or whatever), would you watch the show to find out the ending?

Yeah, I'll watch it if the books are never finished. I'll watch it after I'm able to read all the books as well. Honestly, if the ending gets spoiled for me, I'll probably watch the show then too. The reality is I'm a big fan of the story & was excited by the prospect of the show, I just don't think it's worth spoiling the books over.

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Well I assume that they didn't tell him unless he was lying in interviews. He said Feast and Dance would take multiple seasons whilst D+D clearly had intentions even then to adapt it in one. So clearly there was some miscommunication.

I don't think there was miscommunication but rather no communication about things after a while. I think when D&D started, they assumed they would be very faithful to the books, allowing for necessary changes due to the different medium. But that was before ADwD came out. Once that book came out and they realized they were no closer to the end of the story but instead had a slew of new characters and plot lines and they scheduled the pow wow with George to find out how things will end. After that, they realized they would need to do some major cutting. I'd say LS is a big example of that. They had definitely set up having her in the show as early as Season 1 (when Bran dreams of a dead looking Cat telling him to not to climb) but in the long run after learning how things wind up for her, Brienne and Jaime, they decided she wasn't critical to the major story lines.

I agree that Martin thought they'd follow his meandering tale but that was not realistic. He shouldn't even be following it!

As for the contract with HBO/The audience, I don't see how this conflicts. I think a more faithful adaptation - i.e one that includes Arianne, Aegon, Kingsmoot etc. would make good television. In part because I think D+D are poor to mediocre writers who work better when they have someone else's material as a crutch.

I don't think having all of these characters would make good television. I have to echo what other posters have said about their unsullied friends. I even had to make a cheat sheet for a colleague during season 1 so she could keep up and when word spread that it existed, everyone was emailing me for it. That's not to say everyone is in that boat, but many were. Having more characters would really be confusing not to mention that these new characters have completely new story lines. It would just be too much for the show and was not cut because of mediocre writing. Hell, it's too much for the books!

If the worst you can say about show Tyrion is that he's drunk, then that proves my point. Compared to the books, and perhaps more importantly from the perspective of television, compared to other televisual anti-heroes, he's a saint.

I agree, they have really stripped the darkness of a lot of characters. I'm not sure why. I don't buy the fact that people need someone to root for. Having said that, there are many threads in the general section about the nihilistic nature of the story and events. In fact, I do question whether Tyrion and Brienne needed to be disfigured as they were, but that's a different thread.

Changing names is absolutely a sign of dumbing down. They're two unrelated characters, and context would make it clear who was being referred to when. And Martin's naming system is great.

I really don't think so. There was a legitimate complaint about the pronunciation of Osha and Asha with a British accent and the show uses a British accent a great deal. With an American accent, the difference is much greater.

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There was a hope that HBO's Game of Thrones would be A Song of Ice and Fire: Abridged.


Instead, it's looking more and more like HBO's Game of Thrones.



This isn't a bad thing, I feel.


I'm starting to theorize that D&D are passionate and calculating fans, realizing that if they were to get hold of the rights to make a series of it, then the ending would HAVE to come much quicker. Little did they know that their version would end up being the one to show the conclusion first.


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I don't think he is. He just keeps stating his opinion about the show which I assume is disappointing him. Not everybody who disagrees with you and have complete opposite view is automatically a troll.

You are right. An opposite view is not automatically a troll. But when somebody makes statements so inflammatory that they don't gel with reality.... that is trolling. Claiming the show isn't too complicated when it is the most complicated show in the history of television.... is trolling. Saying it is going towards the lowest common denominator when it is one of the most intelligent shows in the history of television.... is trolling. Complaining that the show isn't faithful enough to the source material, when the show has one of the best track records of being true to the feeling of the source material....is trolling....

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Claiming the show isn't too complicated when it is the most complicated show in the history of television.... is trolling. Saying it is going towards the lowest common denominator when it is one of the most intelligent shows in the history of television.... is trolling.

Yikes I think you might be the troll

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You are right. An opposite view is not automatically a troll. But when somebody makes statements so inflammatory that they don't gel with reality.... that is trolling.

I think Protar is just passionate about the books. Hell, he made a comment about how Martin's naming scheme is perfection. I'd venture to say he might be Martin's biggest fan with a statement like that. Very little about ASOIAF is perfection but much of it is very, very ground breaking and entertaining.

Yikes I think you might be the troll

Agreed. That's quite a comment, AlwaysRelaxing24.

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You are right. An opposite view is not automatically a troll. But when somebody makes statements so inflammatory that they don't gel with reality.... that is trolling. Claiming the show isn't too complicated when it is the most complicated show in the history of television.... is trolling. Saying it is going towards the lowest common denominator when it is one of the most intelligent shows in the history of television.... is trolling. Complaining that the show isn't faithful enough to the source material, when the show has one of the best track records of being true to the feeling of the source material....is trolling....

Couldn't agree more.

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Yeah I don't think anyone is denying they have made a handful of decent changes. Though I don't agree with all the ones you posted

They have also made shitty ones. For example my unsullied brother and friends all though the Missendei/ Grey Worm shit last season was super cringeworthy. I just said it wasn't in the books :lol:

Me and my Unsullied friends loved Missandei and Grey Worm.

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meh I'll be watching the parts I care about and fast forwarding the rest. honestly this show makes me really angry but keep watching for the 2-3 good scenes that are in each episodes and the actors that i like. and i don't give a fuck about spoilers, honestly i just want to know who lives and dies at this point and what happens to my favorite characters and then i'm ready to move on from this series.


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meh I'll be watching the parts I care about and fast forwarding the rest. honestly this show makes me really angry but keep watching for the 2-3 good scenes that are in each episodes and the actors that i like. and i don't give a fuck about spoilers, honestly i just want to know who lives and dies at this point and what happens to my favorite characters and then i'm ready to move on from this series.

Who are your favorite characters?

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I agree, they have really stripped the darkness of a lot of characters. I'm not sure why. I don't buy the fact that people need someone to root for. Having said that, there are many threads in the general section about the nihilistic nature of the story and events. In fact, I do question whether Tyrion and Brienne needed to be disfigured as they were, but that's a different thread.

I don't think it's so much the darkness being stripped away, as it is making them more visually presentable and dramatically surprising when they carry out certain actions for the audience.

Show Tyrion killing Shae and Tywin was more surprising than book Tyrion doing the same - but book Tyrion no doubt makes for a better read. It's horses for courses, I think. Both books and show do an admirable job of conveying the story - just with their respective mediums.

As a general rule - the TV characters are much better looking than their book counterparts. Consider Jorah - in the show he's got his handsome middle aged George Clooney thing going on. In the book I read him as looking like a grizzled Mario from the video game - I doubt much of the TV audience would swoon over and sympathise with the Jorah/Dany beauty and the beast thing if he looked like he did in the book.

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Who are your favorite characters?

In the books: Dany, Arya, Cersei, Jaime, Sansa and Tyrion

In the show: Dany, Arya and Cersei

tv tyrion and tv jaime are bland as fuck IMO. and tv sansa gets on my nerves at times.

but seriously, i'm starting to get exhausted of discussing theories and hearing about others' flop opinions. just give me the ending and tell me what happens to my faves at this point. i have no clue how there are people who've been into ASOIAF since the beginning and still have patience to discuss stuff and are willing to stop watching the show and wait for GRRM's slow ass to finish these damn books.

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I'd say LS is a big example of that. They had definitely set up having her in the show as early as Season 1 (when Bran dreams of a dead looking Cat telling him to not to climb)

That's season 3, not 1. And the "dead looking Cat" idea is just fans seeing what they want to see. She looks perfectly normal to me.

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Me and my Unsullied friends loved Missandei and Grey Worm.

I actually think there's some merit to it. There's hints of that kind of relationship in the books: not specifically between Missandei and Grey Worm obviously, but in ADWD Dany I, there's the Unsullied who was killed while spending time at a brothel, reportedly asking women to lie with him and hold him. As is also said in the chapter, eunuchs may not have a mans sexual organs, but they still have a man's heart. I think the Grey Worm/Missandei arc is just giving us a more personal look at that.

I don't think it's so much the darkness being stripped away, as it is making them more visually presentable and dramatically surprising when they carry out certain actions for the audience.

Show Tyrion killing Shae and Tywin was more surprising than book Tyrion doing the same - but book Tyrion no doubt makes for a better read. It's horses for courses, I think. Both books and show do an admirable job of conveying the story - just with their respective mediums.

As a general rule - the TV characters are much better looking than their book counterparts. Consider Jorah - in the show he's got his handsome middle aged George Clooney thing going on. In the book I read him as looking like a grizzled Mario from the video game - I doubt much of the TV audience would swoon over and sympathise with the Jorah/Dany beauty and the beast thing if he looked like he did in the book.

Would certainly agree with you about TV characters being better looking than their show counterparts, thats usually inevitable. However, you bring up the example of Tyrion killing Shae as more surprising in the show than in the books. Thats because the show makes it look like he wouldn't have done it if Shae hadn't gone for the knife, intending to kill him. That forces him into a corner, makes it look like he has no choice. In the show he murders her in cold blood, out of fury and malice. There is no other word for that change than whitewashing. Then we move on to his scene with Tywin in the privy. In the book, there's no hint of sadness, or self pity from Tyrion, as there is in the show. Rather, he's cold and resolved. He's getting the answers he wants from Tywin and then killing him. In the show, there's almost this "why have you pushed me to this level father, why have you driven me to the point of killing you?" What that does is lift the responsibility of Tyrion's actions from his shoulders, making him purely the victim. Don't get me wrong, he is a victim, and Tywin has driven him to murder. But that doesn't absolve him of murder, or redeem him, and yet the show seems to be trying to do that.

What all this comes down to is not about visual representation; Tyrion murdering Shae in cold blood would have made for extremely compelling viewing. Rather, it comes down to using Tyrion as a safety net; he's emphatically emerged as the most popular character, and HBO are, in my opinion, putting pressure on D&D to keep it that way, rather than letting the character evolve naturally. Because the truth is no one could go through what Tyrion went through without coming out the other end much darker.

I don't think there was miscommunication but rather no communication about things after a while. I think when D&D started, they assumed they would be very faithful to the books, allowing for necessary changes due to the different medium. But that was before ADwD came out. Once that book came out and they realized they were no closer to the end of the story but instead had a slew of new characters and plot lines and they scheduled the pow wow with George to find out how things will end. After that, they realized they would need to do some major cutting. I'd say LS is a big example of that. They had definitely set up having her in the show as early as Season 1 (when Bran dreams of a dead looking Cat telling him to not to climb) but in the long run after learning how things wind up for her, Brienne and Jaime, they decided she wasn't critical to the major story lines.

I agree that Martin thought they'd follow his meandering tale but that was not realistic. He shouldn't even be following it!

This so much. A Feast for Crows, and in particular A Dance with Dragons, are quite simply impossible to adapt to screen without major changes. The depth of the intrigue, the convoluted Mereen and Winterfell knots, the influx of new characters, its actually brain bending. I would have been horrified to have to sit down and try and adapt that stuff onto TV, so honestly, I'm giving D&D (almost) a free pass for the next two seasons, because of what they had to work with. I will mourn the loss of characters like Arianne and (most likely) Aegon and Jon Connington, but honestly, you have to look at the larger context of the show's success to understand why they're doing what they're doing. They peaked in Season 4. The popularity of the show reached what I believe were genuinely unexpected levels. And while thats great news, its also a lot of pressure. They have to nail this season, and they have to do so utilising the most complicated material yet. They've made their mistakes along the way, but I believe they genuinely have the story's best interests at heart, and in order to get to the end, they need to keep the show performing at the highest level, which unfortunately means streamlining it significantly, and focusing on well established, popular characters.

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That's season 3, not 1. And the "dead looking Cat" idea is just fans seeing what they want to see. She looks perfectly normal to me.

Uh no, she definitely did not look perfectly normal and her behavior was also definitely not normal. And I am not a fan of LS in any way, shape or form but I can't deny that the scene was setting up a "different" Cat. I'm really glad they didn't go with it, though. I really hate the undead characters in this series.

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Uh no, she definitely did not look perfectly normal and her behavior was also definitely not normal. And I am not a fan of LS in any way, shape or form but I can't deny that the scene was setting up a "different" Cat. I'm really glad they didn't go with it, though. I really hate the undead characters in this series.

It was just a dream, she looks fine at first and then the dream becomes more violent, the lighting changes and she becomes more violent. That's what I see. Her face doesn't change into any possible LSH makeup. I don't see how a dream which is about Bran being too scared to follow his dreams and "fly" (and uses some memories from season 1, including Jon, Robb, Ned and Cat) is setting up LSH in any way.

I would say the scene in 1.10 between Robb and Cat ("we have to get the girls back... and then we will kill them all) with that fierce looking Cat sets up LSH much better than Bran's dream. But again, it's a stretch to pretend to know what the producers were planning in season 1.

In any case, Bran's dream is season 3, and by that time they probably did know whether they were including LSH or not. (most fans believed season 3 would end with Cat being resurrected).

And btw, we still don't know if LSH is included in the series or not!

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It was just a dream, she looks fine at first and then the dream becomes more violent, the lighting changes and she becomes more violent. That's what I see. Her face doesn't change into any possible LSH makeup.

No, I don't think she looks like LS in that dream but yes, there is a violent turn and that is the part that hints at her transformation. But thanks for stating it this way -- now I see what people are objecting to in my description. No, she doesn't look like LS at all in the dream. But she is not herself either.

I would say the scene in 1.10 between Robb and Cat ("we have to get the girls back... and then we will kill them all) with that fierce looking Cat sets up LSH much better than Bran's dream. But again, it's a stretch to pretend to know what the producers were planning in season 1.

I agree that the Kill them all line also contributes. And all of that was before the pow wow with Martin about how things end.

And btw, we still don't know if LSH is included in the series or not!

Sigh. Yes, one can always hope that she will be revealed in season 6. Or 7.

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