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[BOOK SPOILERS] Watching the show if it overpasses the books [Part 2]


Stubby

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I don't know about other television adaptations, but this is a terrible adaptation. An outright violation of trust so far as I'm concerned. You know Martin turned down a lot of potential adaptations, on the grounds that they wanted to only adapt certain plot lines? Well now D+D are doing exactly that. Large swathes of the book are being cut out, characters are completely different to how they where in the source material, and there are invented plot lines which don't save, but add time in virtually every episode. The rich, moral complexity of the series has been stripped away to the point where the general public is more likely to think of beheadings and prostitutes than intrigue when they think of the show. And despite claims that D+D are simply doing what they can to save time, the show continually suffers from a supremely slow and bloated mid-season. I cannot emphasise enough what an utterly abysmal adaptation this is.

And I stand by my belief that they could have fit the Kingsmoot in S4. Imagine for example, if Stannis hadn't been in most of S4, if they'd actually kept the surprise of where he'd gone. That, plus some more trimming of the very bloated filler scenes, and there would have been time aplenty. Sansa not being in the last two episodes had far more to do with the fact that her plot was finished, than due to time.

Terrible Adaption? Abysmal Adaption? Okay, like somebody else said above, you have to be trolling now. You might not like the series, but this is a a great adaption to a very complicated series. Like I posted before, compared to a show like LOST, they have much few episodes and already a much bigger cast. And LOST was a huge production for television.

The fans care about the current core characters. They don't need 20 more characters added to bring more confusion to the show.

And look at the last 2 episodes, there was no room for Sana. The second to last episode was on the Wall. The last episode had every scene that was extremely meaningful. There wasn't any room.

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No, I think you missed mine. You listed off the changes that you find acceptable in order for you to find the adaptation to be 'faithful'. You're not unhappy that you're not receiving a faithful adaptation, you're unhappy because you're not receiving an adaptation tailored to your wants. And you have the full right to feel unhappy about it. But my point is, you're not the arbiter of objectivity. So when you then try to push your views as somehow objectively better, or more important, that'd be pretty much offensive if it were not so risible.

Also, you refuse to acknowledge the possibility that people may be aware that the changes aren't done to save time, but due to an artistic choice. You say "Mark my words, these changes are not going to save any time, or at least not nearly as much as apologists think.". I say, "Yup, so what? I'm cool with that. If I like the story better, go hog wild." In a word: the story told by the books does not have to be the story most people have to like the most.

And many don't, judging by how many people are actually happy with a lot of the cuts. Go to the thread 'which changes would you like the show to make' and you'll see that actually, the changes the show is making are the changes a lot of people said they'd want.

e: And again, in the post above - 'abysmal' adaptation. Nope. Most people like it and most critics like it. That's a pretty good metric of a good adaptation. You just personally don't like it.

And once more, that's cool that you don't. Hatewatch and whine all you want. But don't try to push your views as the views of the intersubjective majority.

You would have a point if I was suggesting changes on the same level as what D+D are making. Then I would just be arbitrarily complaining that D+D aren't making the changes I want. But that isn't what I'm doing. I don't want changes, I simply accept their necessity. But I do not accept the necessity of the changes D+D are making. My opinion is that if something can be as in the books, then it should. That should be one of the primary goals here (obviously the very first should be to make money, and good television - fortunately these three go hand in hand). This isn't what D+D are doing.

If D+D want to make "artistic decisions" then they should have made their own show. Tearing up someone else's work, in a complete violation of their trust is not what good writers and artists do.

But yes, my posts reflect my opinion. I mean obviously. Does each post need to come with a disclaimer? Use some common sense.

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Terrible Adaption? Abysmal Adaption? Okay, like somebody else said above, you have to be trolling now. You might not like the series, but this is a a great adaption to a very complicated series. Like I posted before, compared to a show like LOST, they have much few episodes and already a much bigger cast. And LOST was a huge production for television.

The fans care about the current core characters. They don't need 20 more characters added to bring more confusion to the show.

And look at the last 2 episodes, there was no room for Sana. The second to last episode was on the Wall. The last episode had every scene that was extremely meaningful. There wasn't any room.

Claiming someone is trolling because they disagree with you isn't a good way to lend credence to your arguments. I am dead serious I assure you. At this point I just have no words for D+D and this...thing they've created. And it's even more sad because S1 was a brilliant adaptation. It remains to this day the best season, both in that respect and in terms of quality television.

The show would not be overly complex if it introduced the major AFFC/ADWD plot points. As I've demonstrated above, including them results in the same amount of plots as other seasons. Less plot lines than S3 I think.

As for what characters the fans care about, this is utterly subjective. By this point the Feast and Dance characters have gained sizeable fanbases. Especially Arianne I would say (but maybe I'm biased there). The thing is, D+D have the books - a good guide of how to create an objective adaptation. Maybe Aegon isn't as popular as Dany, but a lot of ADWD is spent on him, and presumably more of TWOW will be too. Ergo he should be included, there's no excuse.

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You would have a point if I was suggesting changes on the same level as what D+D are making. Then I would just be arbitrarily complaining that D+D aren't making the changes I want. But that isn't what I'm doing. I don't want changes, I simply accept their necessity. But I do not accept the necessity of the changes D+D are making. My opinion is that if something can be as in the books, then it should. That should be one of the primary goals here (obviously the very first should be to make money, and good television - fortunately these three go hand in hand). This isn't what D+D are doing.

If D+D want to make "artistic decisions" then they should have made their own show. Tearing up someone else's work, in a complete violation of their trust is not what good writers and artists do.

But yes, my posts reflect my opinion. I mean obviously. Does each post need to come with a disclaimer? Use some common sense.

There decisions are based on the number of current story lines, shooting locations, and various other factors. They also need to have proper story arcs for each character for each season. And they need to keep in mind the series ending and how the characters will line up properly.

You think they just cut things for the point of stroking their own ego? Hardly. You can tell a lot of time went into figuring everything out.

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There decisions are based on the number of current story lines, shooting locations, and various other factors. They also need to have proper story arcs for each character for each season. And they need to keep in mind the series ending and how the characters will line up properly.

You think they just cut things for the point of stroking their own ego? Hardly. You can tell a lot of time went into figuring everything out.

Hardly. When I look at things like Qarth, or Talisa, or Theon's torture scenes (particularly Asha...sorry Yara's - if you needed proof that D+D cater to the lowest common denominator - assault on the Dreadfort) it's clear to me that however much thought D+D put into this adaptation, the end result is a messy and sloppy one.

As for your other points, none of these things contradict the idea of a faithful adaptation. Because you know, the book provides character arcs with climaxes every book. And the characters in the books end up where they will, with the existence of other plot lines. So the idea that things must be changed from the book so the show can reach the ending of the books, just makes no sense.

So yes, I think a lot of the invented material is essentially D+D getting carried away and just exercising too much of their own creativity, of dubious quality.

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My opinion is that if something can be as in the books, then it should. That should be one of the primary goals here (obviously the very first should be to make money, and good television - fortunately these three go hand in hand).

Well, that's your problem. Personally, I think that Martin had a lot of problems with AFFC/ADWD, that they were boring, full of unlikeable characters I was not the least invested in, and that the well-being of the story demands that it be edited better than in the books. Sincerely, if the story was exactly as in AFFC/ADWD, I would probably stop watching out of sheer boredom.

But hey, like I wrote above - have fun hatewatching.

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Well, that's your problem. Personally, I think that Martin had a lot of problems with AFFC/ADWD, that they were boring, full of unlikeable characters I was not the least invested in, and that the well-being of the story demands that it be edited better than in the books. Sincerely, if the story was exactly as in AFFC/ADWD, I would probably stop watching out of sheer boredom.

But hey, like I wrote above - have fun hatewatching.

But that's all subjective. At the end of the day the best way to go is to stick to the books where possible, because that's being objective as possible. A trimmed AFFC/ADWD could actually be very exciting. A lot of the subplots that are seen as boring and extraneous would need to be cut for time anyway.

And to be clear - just as a show, Game of Thrones isn't bad. It's not the masterpiece it could and should have been - it has a lot of problems with plot holes, sexism and things like that. But it is something that I can enjoy. I only hate it as an adaptation, and most of that frustration is outside of watching. Although that said, I will probably enjoy S5 a lot less. I felt no excitement from the trailer. At the end of the day GoT just makes me sad. It's become cheap, mindless entertainment. Fun to watch for a bit, but with little depth.

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Hardly. When I look at things like Qarth, or Talisa, or Theon's torture scenes (particularly Asha...sorry Yara's - if you needed proof that D+D cater to the lowest common denominator - assault on the Dreadfort) it's clear to me that however much thought D+D put into this adaptation, the end result is a messy and sloppy one.

As for your other points, none of these things contradict the idea of a faithful adaptation. Because you know, the book provides character arcs with climaxes every book. And the characters in the books end up where they will, with the existence of other plot lines. So the idea that things must be changed from the book so the show can reach the ending of the books, just makes no sense.

So yes, I think a lot of the invented material is essentially D+D getting carried away and just exercising too much of their own creativity, of dubious quality.

As to the trolling comment above... A few of us have noticed it. We are still commenting on the subject itself, but you are coming across poorly.

Lets talk Talisa for a moment. I kind of chuckle when people say they changed the character just because they wanted to change things. I completely disagree.

Robb Starks wife was from a house sworn to House Lannister. If they kept her in the story, then they would also have to explain the entire side plot about why she married Robb and how this effected her family. D&D would then also have to introduce her parents as characters. All great stuff for a book and all pointless side plot for a television show.

It was much easier to create Talisa who didn't have any of that extra character baggage. They also didn't have to keep her around and then re-appear randomly in the books a few times. That works in books and it doesn't work in television.

So what they did made perfect sense for the medium they are using.

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As to the trolling comment above... A few of us have noticed it. We are still commenting on the subject itself, but you are coming across poorly.

Lets talk Talisa for a moment. I kind of chuckle when people say they changed the character just because they wanted to change things. I completely disagree.

Robb Starks wife was from a house sworn to House Lannister. If they kept her in the story, then they would also have to explain the entire side plot about why she married Robb and how this effected her family. D&D would then also have to introduce her parents as characters. All great stuff for a book and all pointless side plot for a television show.

It was much easier to create Talisa who didn't have any of that extra character baggage. They also didn't have to keep her around and then re-appear randomly in the books a few times. That works in books and it doesn't work in television.

So what they did made perfect sense for the medium they are using.

Aside from the fact that Talisa was a poorly written and acted character, it really would have been simple to just include Jeyne. Especially as they spent a fair amount of time on the romance anyway. Robb is injured, they shelter in a taken castle, Robb falls in love with a maiden from the enemy team, and she abandons the Lannisters as a result. That's really quite simple. The biggest complication would be the other Westerlings, who could just be featured extras. There wouldn't be any need for their complicity in the RW.

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But that's all subjective. At the end of the day the best way to go is to stick to the books where possible, because that's being objective as possible. A trimmed AFFC/ADWD could actually be very exciting. A lot of the subplots that are seen as boring and extraneous would need to be cut for time anyway.

And to be clear - just as a show, Game of Thrones isn't bad. It's not the masterpiece it could and should have been - it has a lot of problems with plot holes, sexism and things like that. But it is something that I can enjoy. I only hate it as an adaptation, and most of that frustration is outside of watching. Although that said, I will probably enjoy S5 a lot less. I felt no excitement from the trailer. At the end of the day GoT just makes me sad. It's become cheap, mindless entertainment. Fun to watch for a bit, but with little depth.

There is nothing subjective about the fact that he lost focus on the main characters. Just do a chapter count of the main Stark Family in the 4th and 5th books and they have been completely pushed to the side for other content. You can say it is subjective if you liked those side stories, but the fact is that GRRM got away from the main characters far too much the last decade.

That is not possible in a television series. In that medium,you have to stay focused on the main characters or you will quickly lose and audience. D&D did what was best based on the bad source material given to them.

And they are giving us a trimmed down Book 4 & 5. Just not the way you want. The biggest problem is that the story arcs this season for many of the characters in book 4 and 5 are not until book 6. There is no logical conclusion for many of these characters right now in print. And if they did books 4 and 5 like was written,it would take 2 seasons and still without a true purpose. Not good television.

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Aside from the fact that Talisa was a poorly written and acted character, it really would have been simple to just include Jeyne. Especially as they spent a fair amount of time on the romance anyway. Robb is injured, they shelter in a taken castle, Robb falls in love with a maiden from the enemy team, and she abandons the Lannisters as a result. That's really quite simple. The biggest complication would be the other Westerlings, who could just be featured extras. There wouldn't be any need for their complicity in the RW.

But The Lannisters are the enemies of the Starks. How do they find shelter in an enemy camp? All very complicated stuff for a show that is already confusing. They streamlined it, and the Red Wedding was still awesome. Not to mention that injuring Robb in the show takes away from what happens during the RW. In the show he is older, wiser, and never lost a battle. Injuring him doesn't go with the storyline.

Oh that's right. Robb Stark is another character fleshed out for the show and he is even better then in the books.

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There is nothing subjective about the fact that he lost focus on the main characters. Just do a chapter count of the main Stark Family in the 4th and 5th books and they have been completely pushed to the side for other content. You can say it is subjective if you liked those side stories, but the fact is that GRRM got away from the main characters far too much the last decade.

That is not possible in a television series. In that medium,you have to stay focused on the main characters or you will quickly lose and audience. D&D did what was best based on the bad source material given to them.

And they are giving us a trimmed down Book 4 & 5. Just not the way you want. The biggest problem is that the story arcs this season for many of the characters in book 4 and 5 are not until book 6. There is no logical conclusion for many of these characters right now in print. And if they did books 4 and 5 like was written,it would take 2 seasons and still without a true purpose. Not good television.

Perhaps it isn't subjective that the focus was moved away from the original main characters, but it certainly is subjective as to how bad or good that is. If introducing new plot lines was going to alienate audiences GoT would already be dead long ago. And you know, D+D read Feast and Dance. If they didn't want to adapt them, they shouldn't have taken the offer to Martin in the first place. Do you think, that if D+D had come to Martin with the offer of adapting the first three books, but then skipping most of the next two, he would have taken up the deal? I'd bet a lot of money that his answer would have been no. So regardless of your subjective opinion on the latter two books, treating them as D+D are is a complete breach of trust.

They are not giving us a trimmed down version of books 4 and 5. They're giving us a decimated version. As for satisfying character arcs I would say that there is plenty.

> With some acceleration the Battle of Fire could have capped off S5. That creates a climax for several characters.

> Jon's assassination is a pretty shocking event to end that plot with.

> Theon's escape from Winterfell.

> Arianne setting off to meet Aegon

> Cersei taken by the faith, doing her Walk of Shame. The Dance epilogue.

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But The Lannisters are the enemies of the Starks. How do they find shelter in an enemy camp? All very complicated stuff for a show that is already confusing. They streamlined it, and the Red Wedding was still awesome. Not to mention that injuring Robb in the show takes away from what happens during the RW. In the show he is older, wiser, and never lost a battle. Injuring him doesn't go with the storyline.

Oh that's right. Robb Stark is another character fleshed out for the show and he is even better then in the books.

He really isn't. He gets more screen time, not more development. Injuries wouldn't suit his character? Is he superman? Taking shelter in a castle they'd taken is complicated? This is exactly what I'm talking about, pandering to the masses because they have no confidence in their audience.

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He really isn't. He gets more screen time, not more development. Injuries wouldn't suit his character? Is he superman? Taking shelter in a castle they'd taken is complicated? This is exactly what I'm talking about, pandering to the masses because they have no confidence in their audience.

They have had over 100 characters appear in the show at least 5 times and you think they have no confidence in their audience? Really? This is why people think you are trolling.

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They have had over 100 characters appear in the show at least 5 times and you think they have no confidence in their audience? Really? This is why people think you are trolling.

But that's the most absurd thing - they have a fairly complex show here, and yet then they chicken out at random inconsequential things. Like changing Asha to Yara, or simplifying stuff like Talisa. Despite it's relative complexity, I don't really think the show is that hard to keep track of. So it disappoints me when they put in cheap fanservice, and remove moral ambiguity - despite other shows proving it can be done well.

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Perhaps it isn't subjective that the focus was moved away from the original main characters, but it certainly is subjective as to how bad or good that is. If introducing new plot lines was going to alienate audiences GoT would already be dead long ago. And you know, D+D read Feast and Dance. If they didn't want to adapt them, they shouldn't have taken the offer to Martin in the first place. Do you think, that if D+D had come to Martin with the offer of adapting the first three books, but then skipping most of the next two, he would have taken up the deal? I'd bet a lot of money that his answer would have been no. So regardless of your subjective opinion on the latter two books, treating them as D+D are is a complete breach of trust.

They are not giving us a trimmed down version of books 4 and 5. They're giving us a decimated version. As for satisfying character arcs I would say that there is plenty.

> With some acceleration the Battle of Fire could have capped off S5. That creates a climax for several characters.

> Jon's assassination is a pretty shocking event to end that plot with.

> Theon's escape from Winterfell.

> Arianne setting off to meet Aegon

> Cersei taken by the faith, doing her Walk of Shame. The Dance epilogue.

Look at the locations in Season 5, and each location has a character that was there since the beginning:

1) The Wall - Jon Snow

2) Winterfell - Theon Greyjoy

3) The Vale - Sansa Stark

4) King's Landing - Cersei Lannister

5) Dorne - Jamie Lannister (Change For The Show)

6) Meereen - Dany Targaryen

7) Pentos (???) - Tyrion Lannister

8) Braavos - Arya Stark

Now you want them to introduce the Iron Islands and there is no main character to connect it to. Add in Aegon and a bunch of people there too?

This story is here to follow the main characters. That is it. If there is a way to avoid more characters being added and still get to the same points, D&D are going to do it.

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But that's the most absurd thing - they have a fairly complex show here, and yet then they chicken out at random inconsequential things. Like changing Asha to Yara, or simplifying stuff like Talisa. Despite it's relative complexity, I don't really think the show is that hard to keep track of. So it disappoints me when they put in cheap fanservice, and remove moral ambiguity - despite other shows proving it can be done well.

What other shows have this level of complexity? With this many main characters and this many locations?

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What other shows have this level of complexity? With this many main characters and this many locations?

Not many. Or any. But that isn't the point. If you look at it on it's own merits the show is relatively easy to follow for an intelligent audience. The show can essentially be viewed as a group of smaller stories which interconnect at times, but often stay separate. That allows people to digest each one separately. Not quite catching people's names is one thing, but honestly you shouldn't have trouble following the plot. And the show shouldn't cater to those who do. That's not how you garner critical acclaim. That's cheap.

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Not many. Or any. But that isn't the point. If you look at it on it's own merits the show is relatively easy to follow for an intelligent audience. The show can essentially be viewed as a group of smaller stories which interconnect at times, but often stay separate. That allows people to digest each one separately. Not quite catching people's names is one thing, but honestly you shouldn't have trouble following the plot. And the show shouldn't cater to those who do. That's not how you garner critical acclaim. That's cheap.

It isn't easy to follow. It took me pausing the first season on blu-ray over and over in order to look up characters and family trees. Most other fans were the same way. It is an extremely complicated show, which is why it hasn't been done before.

Sometimes things need to be streamlined. If you can't understand that, no sure what else to tell you.

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