Sansa + Ned: What’s the Difference?

[WierWood Wolf]

Yes, he says this a few paragraphs before he puts it together that Joffrey's not a Stag.

The point, though, is that Ned should have pieced it together months earlier; Jof's nature was revealed at the Trident. It's not particularly like Ned had new intel on Jof's malfeasance. He knew Jof was bad news before they even arrived in KL. The criticism here is more that Ned came to the conclusion to break off the marriage far too late in the game despite knowing the reasons he gave here (Jof's nature) months ago, before they were all in danger. How much of Ned's attention to Jof's nature here is truly inspired by Jof's nature, versus how much does it pertain to the fact Ned was attacked by Jaime, Robert went hunting, and this is the way he tries selling the broken arrangement to Sansa?

Even Ned admits his political acumen isn't what it should be.( GoT Catelyn 1) I'll ask you again, what fallout would there be if Ned turns down the offers of hand of the King and betrothal after Robert has traveled to Winterfell?

[butterbumps!]

Even Ned admits his political acumen isn't what it should be.( GoT Catelyn 1) I'll ask you again, what fallout would there be if Ned turns down the offers of hand of the King and betrothal after Robert has traveled to Winterfell?

I'm not fully caught up on this yet, so I haven't responded to everyone's posts. I didn't see your previous question.

Are you asking what I think would have happened if Ned turned back at the Trident? I don't think Ned needed to refuse Hand or go back. I think the wisest choice for the sake of "Team Stark" would have been to send his daughters back. He needn't even officially end the betrothal in order to keep peace; he should have just recognized Joffrey was a "little shit," that his daughters were in grave danger (Cersei wanted Arya's hand, ffs), and sent them back.

[grand old duke of stark]

Robert does tell him for the engagements, but at the end, it is Ned's decision, not Robert's. Ned is the one who decides whether Sansa will get marry for someone or not. After all, if he could have broken off the engagements at the end of AGoT, I don't see the logic behind saying "he had to accept it". No, he didn't have.

>>>>>>> He probably did. This was a royal political marriage, and one which Robert particularly had a sentimental reason to want ("if not Lyanna and me, then at least Ned;s daughter and my son"). It probably seemed perfect to him. More importantly, we are talking about an absolute monarch. Opposing Robert in minor matters was fraught with difficulty; major matters had to be handled very carefully. And Robert being Ned;s friend was not much protection. (In real life history, even relatives and court favourites of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I were very wary of opposing them. Henry especially could turn on them on the slightest pretext. Many a nobleman and woman ended up in the Tower because some action had displeased the sovereign.) The two of them had agreed to betrothe their children and Ned could not have withdrawn from that agreement easily. He may have sensed that Robert saw the Trident incident as a minor children's quarrel, which meant Robert would not accept it as a cause for breaking up what he saw as an ideal engagement. (For what it's worth, even in the early 20th century, breach of promise caused many a lawsuit.)

The reason why Ned should have called the betrothal is not in dead pet, but in the fact that he was said what Joffrey did. Sansa told him, Arya did it too, the boy then lied in front of him. If Sansa was naive and didn't see Joffrey's troublesome behavior, what's Ned's excuse? How do you continue with charade, allowing your daughter's infatuation to grow uncontrollably, when you are perfectly aware (even from the testimony of his own father) that your future son-in-law is truly problematic? Simply, Ned put his duty as his priority, not realizing what he is doing.

>>>>>> See my paragraph above. Ned was no psychologist, but he was an optimist. Perhaps he thought that in KL, he and Robert together could work to raise Joffrey right, as Jon Arryn had done with them. I doubt Ned realised what a monster Joffrey was; Joff's psychopathy was surely inconceivable to him. Even so, while the incident might have given Ned misgivings, it probably was insufficient cause to break a contract with the king.

And her father is the same. And one can even argue the worse. Sansa is 11 year-old girl living in fairy tales. Now, we all can understand that. She was a privileged preteen who knew nothing about the world and its horrors. Ned, on the other hand, lives in this perfect bublle of honorable world where everyone keeps their words and are as equally honorable as he is. He despises the Game, and he refuses to play which leads to catastrophic consequences for his family. He questions the motifs of people, but soon after, he jumps ahead believing their every word. And lastly, he puts honor in front of everything else, his life, his daughters... He is living by the code he perfectly well knows is flawed. So, which one is worse, a preteen girl believing in fairy tales or a grown-up man who lives a life as it is a fairy tale? I think we all know the answer to that question.

>>>>>>>> I think the Sansa P2P group's answer is that Sansa is the hero and Ned a boob. What is their new term: "the introduction bias"? I think GRRM would be laughing his pants off at this reasoning. In the North, where Ned had spent the last 12+ years, honour was valued and practiced. This was no bubble, but it wasn't King's Landing either. His refusal to play the Game had never caused him any problem before, so why should he expect it to now? The increasingly gnarly situation in KL necessitated his taking calculated risks. There was no reason to think Robert would die immediately, so the risk was not great. Moreover, as Hand Ned had considerable power; what he did not perceive is that this power was questionable once the king was out of the picture. I don't think he saw himself as living by a code--flawed or not--so much as trying to make the right decisions in complex and slippery circumstances in a place he was not at home. He rightly was keen to acquire allies but did not want to pick the wrong ones, and didn't really know the players at court. One reason he chose Baelish is that he came with Cat's recommendation from a long friendship outside of King's Landing. And if Ned really believed he was putting his family in danger, he might have timed things a bit differently. But he didn't believe that. You make him sound high-minded to the point of being callous. Sending the girls home was a precaution because he knew there might be a scramble for the throne and bloodshed once Robert was out of the picture. And they would have gotten away, but instead his naive older daughter ran to her good buddy Cersei and blew the plan. Was that smart? I think we all know the answer to that question.

I've answered each point within the quote using multiple carets for my paragraphs. I just find it easier to work that way.

[Mladen]

Just curious as to your 1st point. If Ned denied Robert's offer of the Hand of the King and the betrothal, would it be as Catelyn says, Robert will question Ned's and thereby the Norths loyalty?

As to your second point are you implying Ned should have called Crown Prince and heir apparent Joffry a lier and taken his daughter home?

If he can do that at the end of AGoT, why couldn't he have done that at first sign of trouble. He doesn't need to call Joffrey a liar, he doesn't need to do anything except of ordering Jory and some of his men to return the girls home. You can't argue that Ned's hands were tied when he proved they are not. You can't say he didn't have a choice, when we see he actually did. You can't say he couldn't do something, when he actually did. Your assessment of what Ned was able to do is in contradiction with what Ned did in the books.

If you are trying to equate Ned's situation to Sansa poor choices, I'm not buying. You can chose to say Ned made just as many poor,choices as Sansa, but the circumstances are different. Ned's only recourse is to not take the job in the 1st place. After that he is at the mercy of a poor king and the minions who would do anything to further their own agendas. Sansa is so starstruck she is willing to put herself and her dreams ahead of family. That is something Ned would never intentionally do.

No, actually. Ned was never on the mercy of the King and he shows it time after time in KL. Ned chose poorly in many situations and he paid for it. Lastly, Ned put his honor and duty ahead of his family... Is that much worse or different of what Sansa did?

PS if you take the time to read my first post I say everything Ned does after Jaime attacks him is unforgivable. The events of the Trident is only a glimpse of Joff's character and look at how far gone Robert's reign is. You want to throw every incident as one event, fine by me. Your opinion has value.

Ned didn't like Joffrey even in Winterfell. He knows the truth about Trident incident, and then Robert poured out his soul when he told him what type of person his son is. Ned had enough of insight to conclude that Joffrey is bad for Sansa.

>>>>>>> He probably did. This was a royal political marriage, and one which Robert particularly had a sentimental reason to want ("if not Lyanna and me, then at least Ned;s daughter and my son"). It probably seemed perfect to him. More importantly, we are talking about an absolute monarch. Opposing Robert in minor matters was fraught with difficulty; major matters had to be handled very carefully. And Robert being Ned;s friend was not much protection. (In real life history, even relatives and court favourites of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I were very wary of opposing them. Henry especially could turn on them on the slightest pretext. Many a nobleman and woman ended up in the Tower because some action had displeased the sovereign.) The two of them had agreed to betrothe their children and Ned could not have withdrawn from that agreement easily. He may have sensed that Robert saw the Trident incident as a minor children's quarrel, which meant Robert would not accept it as a cause for breaking up what he saw as an ideal engagement. (For what it's worth, even in the early 20th century, breach of promise caused many a lawsuit.)

OK, my point here is: If Ned could have broken the engagements at the end of AGoT, why couldn't he have done that before? What has changed in his position that he suddenly could do everything he did, but he couldn't before that?

>>>>>> See my paragraph above. Ned was no psychologist, but he was an optimist. Perhaps he thought that in KL, he and Robert together could work to raise Joffrey right, as Jon Arryn had done with them. I doubt Ned realised what a monster Joffrey was; Joff's psychopathy was surely inconceivable to him. Even so, while the incident might have given Ned misgivings, it probably was insufficient cause to break a contract with the king.

So was to Sansa. If we all blame Sansa for not seeing what Joffrey is, why don't we do the same for Ned? I mean, entire Sansa criticism is based on the fact she didn't see "Joffrey's true nature" and we have older, far more experienced man that also doesn't see how rotten the boy is. And he even has far more information than Sansa. Look at what striking difference there is between Olenna in ASoS and Ned in AGoT. Olenna called Sansa to verify "troublesome rumors" about Joffrey, while Ned didn't care much. This was his future King, his future son-in-law. You see some problematic behavior and you don't bother to investigate it at least to find out what you are putting you daughter in? And when you see all the signs, you just continue with the charade hoping for the best? I am sorry, but that is whole new level of naivete.

>>>>>>>> I think the Sansa P2P group's answer is that Sansa is the hero and Ned a boob. What is their new term: "the introduction bias"? I think GRRM would be laughing his pants off at this reasoning. In the North, where Ned had spent the last 12+ years, honour was valued and practiced. This was no bubble, but it wasn't King's Landing either. His refusal to play the Game had never caused him any problem before, so why should he expect it to now? The increasingly gnarly situation in KL necessitated his taking calculated risks. There was no reason to think Robert would die immediately, so the risk was not great. Moreover, as Hand Ned had considerable power; what he did not perceive is that this power was questionable once the king was out of the picture. I don't think he saw himself as living by a code--flawed or not--so much as trying to make the right decisions in complex and slippery circumstances in a place he was not at home. He rightly was keen to acquire allies but did not want to pick the wrong ones, and didn't really know the players at court. One reason he chose Baelish is that he came with Cat's recommendation from a long friendship outside of King's Landing. And if Ned really believed he was putting his family in danger, he might have timed things a bit differently. But he didn't believe that. You make him sound high-minded to the point of being callous. Sending the girls home was a precaution because he knew there might be a scramble for the throne and bloodshed once Robert was out of the picture. And they would have gotten away, but instead his naive older daughter ran to her good buddy Cersei and blew the plan. Was that smart? I think we all know the answer to that question.

What does PTP has to do with my argument? "Introduction bias" is one of the major problems why people hate Sansa so much, and GRRM himself said that "he never thought Sansa would get so much hate" (SSM was quoted earlier in the thread, IIRC). And Martin wouldn't laugh to the point when we say that someone's POV made us love or hate someone. He corrected people about Stannis/Robert issue, pointing out that we have only Stannis' POV on the matter. Now, where you are completely wrong is the fact that Ned didn't think Robert was in danger. He knew that, from Lysa's letter. The reason why he accepted the job is also because Lannisters were working against Robert, and he needed Ned. Also, that flawed misconception about honor being respected and valued in the North. No, it isn't. Ned was honorable, not entire region, and he was respected because of that. So, your argument crumbles when we realize that Ned knew all along Robert's life is in danger.

[Northern light]

The difference is goodwill. Robert has earned at least some goodwill from previous actions (the rebellion, the greyjoy rebellion) whereas Jofferys only goodwill is that he is a prince.

[Mladen]

The difference is goodwill. Robert has earned at least some goodwill from previous actions (the rebellion, the greyjoy rebellion) whereas Jofferys only goodwill is that he is a prince.

I am not so sure about this. Joffrey has always been polite and smooth when Sansa is around. He did what was expected of him to do, and Sansa naively bought it.

[Sansa_Stark]

Like slashing at Arya

[Mladen]

Like slashing at Arya

Well, we shouldn't forget who struck first... So, there was this reasoning of his action in her mind, no matter how foolish and naive it is.

[mambru]

First of all I never said Sansa willfully went to Cersci in order to screw over her family. If you are willing to read that into my post why even reply.

Because what you said was:

Sansa is so starstruck she is willing to put herself and her dreams ahead of family. That is something Ned would never intentionally do.

It certainly SEEMS to imply that Sansa intentionally did something bad to her family because of her starstruck dreams. But I'll take your word you don't think she did. The rest of my post was intended to point out the fact that you could replace "starstruck" and "dreams" with duty related terms and have the sentence be about Ned:

Ned is so obsessed with honor and duty that he is willing to put himself and his dreams of fulfilling his duty with perfect honor ahead of family.

Now I want to make it clear that I don't think Ned did this intentionally, either. But as I pointed out in my previous post, he DID do it over and over, down to the time he was in the dungeon and proudly said he would rather die than dishonor himself by acknowledging Joffrey king, and Varys had to remind him that the Lannisters held Sansa and could kill her for Ned's refusal. Ned was totally in denial about the danger his children were running while he obsessed over the insoluble puzzle of "doing my duty with perfect honor" - a "fairy-tale" concept in the murderous mess of King's Landing, just as Sansa was totally in denial about what kind of boy Joffrey was while she obsessed with her fairy-tale concept of Happily Ever After with Prince. Ned and Sansa are a lot alike that way. But, as I said, Sansa has the excuse of her youth, inexperience and lack of information, while Ned was the well informed, experienced adult responsible for the children (and his whole entourage).

[WierWood Wolf]

If he can do that at the end of AGoT, why couldn't he have done that at first sign of trouble. He doesn't need to call Joffrey a liar, he doesn't need to do anything except of ordering Jory and some of his men to return the girls home. You can't argue that Ned's hands were tied when he proved they are not. You can't say he didn't have a choice, when we see he actually did. You can't say he couldn't do something, when he actually did. Your assessment of what Ned was able to do is in contradiction with what Ned did in the books.

No, actually. Ned was never on the mercy of the King and he shows it time after time in KL. Ned chose poorly in many situations and he paid for it. Lastly, Ned put his honor and duty ahead of his family... Is that much worse or different of what Sansa did?

Ned didn't like Joffrey even in Winterfell. He knows the truth about Trident incident, and then Robert poured out his soul when he told him what type of person his son is. Ned had enough of insight to conclude that Joffrey is bad for Sansa.

OK, my point here is: If Ned could have broken the engagements at the end of AGoT, why couldn't he have done that before? What has changed in his position that he suddenly could do everything he did, but he couldn't before that?

So was to Sansa. If we all blame Sansa for not seeing what Joffrey is, why don't we do the same for Ned? I mean, entire Sansa criticism is based on the fact she didn't see "Joffrey's true nature" and we have older, far more experienced man that also doesn't see how rotten the boy is. And he even has far more information than Sansa. Look at what striking difference there is between Olenna in ASoS and Ned in AGoT. Olenna called Sansa to verify "troublesome rumors" about Joffrey, while Ned didn't care much. This was his future King, his future son-in-law. You see some problematic behavior and you don't bother to investigate it at least to find out what you are putting you daughter in? And when you see all the signs, you just continue with the charade hoping for the best? I am sorry, but that is whole new level of naivete.

What does PTP has to do with my argument? "Introduction bias" is one of the major problems why people hate Sansa so much, and GRRM himself said that "he never thought Sansa would get so much hate" (SSM was quoted earlier in the thread, IIRC). And Martin wouldn't laugh to the point when we say that someone's POV made us love or hate someone. He corrected people about Stannis/Robert issue, pointing out that we have only Stannis' POV on the matter. Now, where you are completely wrong is the fact that Ned didn't think Robert was in danger. He knew that, from Lysa's letter. The reason why he accepted the job is also because Lannisters were working against Robert, and he needed Ned. Also, that flawed misconception about honor being respected and valued in the North. No, it isn't. Ned was honorable, not entire region, and he was respected because of that. So, your argument crumbles when we realize that Ned knew all along Robert's life is in danger.

Ned's choice to quit the HotK happened long after the Trident. After he sees the state of the realm and Robert's lack of control.

My original question to BBumps was how do you think Robert would have reacted to Ned's never taking both offers of job and betrothal. Catelyn seems to think it would be extremely dangerous to say no to Robert. That a king is someone you cant say no to. She tells Ned Robert would question Ned's loyalty. I agree with Cat.

You seem to think Ned can just send the girls home after the incident at the Trident. I disagree.

Even when he quits after the argument and is reinstated by Robert after being attacked by Jaime, Robert seems very angry and threatens Ned.

Edit: when you say Ned knew all along that Robert's life was in danger what timeframe does that entail? From the moment he offered Ned the job, at the Trident, in KL? Where and when?

[Mladen]

Ned's choice to quit the HotK happened long after the Trident. After he sees the state of the realm and Robert's lack of control.

My original question to BBumps was how do you think Robert would have reacted to Ned's never taking both offers of job and betrothal. Catelyn seems to think it would be extremely dangerous to say no to Robert. That a king is someone you cant say no to. She tells Ned Robert would question Ned's loyalty. I agree with Cat.

You seem to think Ned can just send the girls home after the incident at the Trident. I disagree.

Even when he quits after the argument and is reinstated by Robert after being attacked by Jaime, Robert seems very angry and threatens Ned.

You are obviously, perhaps even intentionally, missing the point. I am perfectly aware when Ned decided to leave KL, I am asking you what has changed that suddenly he got the power to leave KL and his position. You are claiming that he couldn't have done that before, I am now asking you what has changed? How come that, according to you, he got right to leave his King?

Ned could have sent the girls back to Winterfell, just as he planned to send them later. Nothing changed in his position.

Robert does threaten to Ned, no one is disputing it, and I also agree with Cat. I am just asking where Ned got sudden power that he hadn't it before. That's all. Now you can answer it, or again, evade it.

[Mourneblade]

I'm not fully caught up on this yet, so I haven't responded to everyone's posts. I didn't see your previous question.

Are you asking what I think would have happened if Ned turned back at the Trident? I don't think Ned needed to refuse Hand or go back. I think the wisest choice for the sake of "Team Stark" would have been to send his daughters back. He needn't even officially end the betrothal in order to keep peace; he should have just recognized Joffrey was a "little shit," that his daughters were in grave danger (Cersei wanted Arya's hand, ffs), and sent them back.

Sansa blamed Arya for what happened at the Trident. After re reading the Sansa chapters at your request ;) , she did tell a similar story that Arya told, but based on how she reflected on that in her next POV, she would have also blamed it all on Arya to Ned as well. So we have the prince showing signs of being a bully, one daughter blaming the prince but admitting she hit him first, another daughter blaming the other and lying to the King in court, and a King that says he will discipline his son, who has also been shamed at court. Cercei using this event to suggest Arya's hand, and finally getting one of the wolves killed.

The 6mo old Nymeria, could have torn the prince's hand off, imagine what that will be like like in six more months, in Kings Landing. Ned cannot save Lady, under any circumstances. Ned still has a serious concern that these wolves will grow up to be wild monsters. I have raise a Timber Wolf, they are not dogs, you do not buy their loyalty with treats. You must always show them who the Alpha is, and they will challenge that from time to time. Now in hindsight we know that these wolves would never hurt the children and are the best defense of Ned's children, but he cannot be sure of that yet.

Now if Ned sends his daughters home at this point, it is quite possible, things escalate out of hand. What can Ned possibly say to Robert that will sound even remotely reasonable.

Oh by the way, Sansa lied to you, but told me the real truth?

Cercei should never have demanded the pelt of Lady, even though this animal could become a wild monster that could turn on Sansa later?

I do not believe that you will discipline you son because I think he is a bully and a sociopath?

Ned is in a difficult situation here, but his actions here are not unreasonable unless he wants to come off completely paranoid.

[WierWood Wolf]

You are obviously, perhaps even intentionally, missing the point. I am perfectly aware when Ned decided to leave KL, I am asking you what has changed that suddenly he got the power to leave KL and his position. You are claiming that he couldn't have done that before, I am now asking you what has changed? How come that, according to you, he got right to leave his King?

Ned could have sent the girls back to Winterfell, just as he planned to send them later. Nothing changed in his position.

Robert does threaten to Ned, no one is disputing it, and I also agree with Cat. I am just asking where Ned got sudden power that he hadn't it before. That's all. Now you can answer it, or again, evade it.

Ned doesn't realize the situation is a dire as it is until he gets to KL. He knows Joff's a little SHit , but sending the girls home after an argument isn't enough to send them away.

When his household guard is killed by Jaime and his soldiers does he begin to think his position is totally compromised. After Robert decided to go hunting instead of handling Jaime and the Lannisters.

When and where did Ned know Robert's life was always in danger?are you going to answer that or continue to evade the question?

[Mladen]

Ned doesn't realize the situation is a dire as it is until he gets to KL. He knows Joff's a little SHit , but sending the girls home after an argument isn't enough to send them away.

When his household guard is killed by Jaime and his soldiers does he begin to think his position is totally compromised. After Robert decided to go hunting instead of handling Jaime and the Lannisters.

When and where did Ned know Robert's life was always in danger?are you going to answer that or continue to evade the question?

So, circumstances changed, but not Ned's power to make a decision? And the natural conclusion is that he could have sent girls whenever he wanted.

As for Ned believing Robert was in danger, it was the moment Lysa's letter came. Catelyn and Luwin made Ned realize that Robert is in danger too, surrounded by killers. Catelyn even said something like "You would left Robert surrounded by murderers" Ned knew there is no love between the royal pair, and with the news of Jon Arryn being murdered by Lannisters, he naturally feared for Robert. He took the job as much as to find out Arryn's killer as to be around Robert and help him if needed. Ned didn't know that there was immediate threat to Robert's life, but he knew he is in danger.

[butterbumps!]

Sansa blamed Arya for what happened at the Trident. After re reading the Sansa chapters at your request ;) , she did tell a similar story that Arya told, but based on how she reflected on that in her next POV, she would have also blamed it all on Arya to Ned as well. So we have the prince showing signs of being a bully, one daughter blaming the prince but admitting she hit him first, another daughter blaming the other and lying to the King in court, and a King that says he will discipline his son, who has also been shamed at court. Cercei using this event to suggest Arya's hand, and finally getting one of the wolves killed.

Are you suggesting that Sansa would have blamed the incident on Arya during the trial because she blamed Arya for it later during a spat? I'm sorry, but that's nonsense.

We know that Sansa told the same story Arya did; Ned knew Jof was a bully from the moment Sansa explained the incident the night of the Trident.

One thing that's always plagued me about this is why in gods name didn't Ned talk to Robert the night of the Trident, after hearing Sansa's account? Why is the trial the first time the facts are brought forward to the king?

The 6mo old Nymeria, could have torn the prince's hand off, imagine what that will be like like in six more months, in Kings Landing. Ned cannot save Lady, under any circumstances. Ned still has a serious concern that these wolves will grow up to be wild monsters. I have raise a Timber Wolf, they are not dogs, you do not buy their loyalty with treats. You must always show them who the Alpha is, and they will challenge that from time to time. Now in hindsight we know that these wolves would never hurt the children and are the best defense of Ned's children, but he cannot be sure of that yet.

I know you keep insisting this, but it honestly has no basis. Ned absolutely could have sent a live Lady back to Winterfell. Literally, the only "proof" of her death was Ned's word. Had he thought about this for a moment-- the fact he was alone, was not going to show the remains to Robert or Cersei, he called a guard immediately to send the body back, all tell us that saving Lady was something he could have done if he thought about it for a second. He could have and should have sent his daughters back with her.

Frankly, I do not understand why Ned did not dispatch Lady back the night Sansa gave him the account.

Now if Ned sends his daughters home at this point, it is quite possible, things escalate out of hand. What can Ned possibly say to Robert that will sound even remotely reasonable.

Oh by the way, Sansa lied to you, but told me the real truth?

Cercei should never have demanded the pelt of Lady, even though this animal could become a wild monster that could turn on Sansa later?

I do not believe that you will discipline you son because I think he is a bully and a sociopath?

Ned is in a difficult situation here, but his actions here are not unreasonable unless he wants to come off completely paranoid.

Why are you giving Ned a pass for appeasing the royal family and not Sansa?

This is the root of why I made this thread. Why is it ok for Ned to knowingly send his daughters into danger to avoid unpleasantness, but you, and others, find Sansa's similar interest in appeasing Jof and Cersei so deplorable? You expect Sansa to endure unpleasant blowback from Jof and Cersei, but seem to believe that Ned should do what it takes to avoid unpleasantness, even in a case where he's selling his family to the enemy.

You do realize that if Ned sent his daughters and Lady back to Winterfell, they'd be immune from any blowback, right? As in, they wouldn't be accessible for various abuses. Ned would take the brunt, but he's the Hand of the king, and Robert's old friend. If anyone should be able to endure a bit of drama, it would be Ned.

The issue isn't about Ned going to Robert and demanding he actually punish Joffrey. The issue is why Ned did not go to Robert saying "This journey is taking a toll on all of us, and in order to deflate tensions, I'm going to send my daughters back when Arya is found. Once in KL, I will send for them to arrive via ship and we'll re-unite."

[WierWood Wolf]

So, circumstances changed, but not Ned's power to make a decision? And the natural conclusion is that he could have sent girls whenever he wanted.

As for Ned believing Robert was in danger, it was the moment Lysa's letter came. Catelyn and Luwin made Ned realize that Robert is in danger too, surrounded by killers. Catelyn even said something like "You would left Robert surrounded by murderers" Ned knew there is no love between the royal pair, and with the news of Jon Arryn being murdered by Lannisters, he naturally feared for Robert. He took the job as much as to find out Arryn's killer as to be around Robert and help him if needed. Ned didn't know that there was immediate threat to Robert's life, but he knew he is in danger.

The letter was found by Maester Lewyn before they leave Winterfell. So Ned takes the job knowing Robert's life is in danger and by extension he and his daughters lives are in danger. Catelyn knows this too and allows her daughters to leave? Not a chance.

The circumstances sure did change. Ned is lead to believe he is now the second most powerful man in Westeros however that is a falsehood. It is only the second most powerful job only if you have backing from the King. The circumstances that Ned faces down the road and in KL show him it's not safe, his position isn't powerful and he has enemies at every turn and no support or allies. Unfortunately by that time it's too late.

Ned does some stupid things no doubt. But neither of you have a convincing argument that makes Ned look like the shitheel country boy you are trying to portray him as. That's my opinion and you are welcome to yours.

[butterbumps!]

Ned does some stupid things no doubt. But neither of you have a convincing argument that makes Ned look like the shitheel country boy you are trying to portray him as. That's my opinion and you are welcome to yours.

Are you referring to me with this?

[Mladen]

The letter was found by Maester Lewyn before they leave Winterfell. So Ned takes the job knowing Robert's life is in danger and by extension he and his daughters lives are in danger. Catelyn knows this too and allows her daughters to leave? Not a chance.

Not a chance? The letter directly accused the Queen of killing Hand of the King, this we know, Luwin and Cat pointed out to Ned that Robert might also be in danger. Ned goes. Even if you don't believe that Ned thought Robert was in danger, how do you explain the fact that even though he believed that Cersei killed Jon Arryn took his daughters to KL. It was a dangerous situation and he knew it, and took his girls with him. It's not my opinion, it's a fact.

The circumstances sure did change. Ned is lead to believe he is now the second most powerful man in Westeros however that is a falsehood. It is only the second most powerful job only if you have backing from the King. The circumstances that Ned faces down the road and in KL show him it's not safe, his position isn't powerful and he has enemies at every turn and no support or allies. Unfortunately by that time it's too late.

Again, we are not discussing the circumstances, but Ned's power to choose. Ned always had that power, in Winterfell, Kingsroad, KL. Nothing changed for him in order to prevent him to make that choice.

Ned does some stupid things no doubt. But neither of you have a convincing argument that makes Ned look like the shitheel country boy you are trying to portray him as. That's my opinion and you are welcome to yours.

I am sorry, but I don't understand your point. What am I discussing here, according to you?

My opinion of Ned is that he was honorable, decent, good guy whose honor and duty set him wrong priorities. That's all.

[Mourneblade]

Are you suggesting that Sansa would have blamed the incident on Arya during the trial because she blamed Arya for it later during a spat? I'm sorry, but that's nonsense.

We know that Sansa told the same story Arya did; Ned knew Jof was a bully from the moment Sansa explained the incident the night of the Trident.

First she said she did not know in the trial, ie she lied. What she told Ned before was the truth, but Sansa's truth. During the attack she is blaming Arya, and after the attack, her first recollection of that event, she blames Arya in her thoughts, then blames her again when her and Arya fight about it later.

How can you maintain she would just tell the story exactly as it happened, without adding that she felt it was Arya's fault, in the telling. She honestly believes it, so it certainly would be part of the truth.

As to Joff being seen as a bully, this is a common thing for young teenage boys with power, they have to be taught that this is not acceptable behavior, but this one event in and of itself is not even remotely enough insight into his true nature to make the call to call off the betrothal

One thing that's always plagued me about this is why in gods name didn't Ned talk to Robert the night of the Trident, after hearing Sansa's account? Why is the trial the first time the facts are brought forward to the king?

I know you keep insisting this, but it honestly has no basis. Ned absolutely could have sent a live Lady back to Winterfell. Literally, the only "proof" of her death was Ned's word. Had he thought about this for a moment-- the fact he was alone, was not going to show the remains to Robert or Cersei, he called a guard immediately to send the body back, all tell us that saving Lady was something he could have done if he thought about it for a second. He could have and should have sent his daughters back with her.

Frankly, I do not understand why Ned did not dispatch Lady back the night Sansa gave him the account.

First he is spending all his free time looking for Arya, once she is found and Ned hears her side of it, then he will talk to Robert. This ends up not being the case because she is taken straight to the King.

You seem to see Ned's reaction to this as appeasement, but this is a very serious matter, Arya has assaulted the Prince. This is a crime punishable by death. You would think you would notice that undertone when the Kings Justice is introduced in the very same chapter. This is not a coincidence.

As to Lady, there is zero reason to dispatch servants to take Lady the night Sansa tells him the story. This is wishful thinking. It is even more wishful thinking to suggest that Ned can disobey the Queens order that the King lets stand. Once again you overlook that the Kings Justice has just been introduced. You are under the false impression that no one sees Lady's remains sent North. You make wonderful points throughout this thread that are well thought out, but are completely blind to the seriousness of these events and that attempting to send back Lady alive could have cost Ned his head.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

Well, we shouldn't forget who struck first... So, there was this reasoning of his action in her mind, no matter how foolish and naive it is.

There is the murder of Mycah though: her idealized version of Joffrey simply had to be torn apart after that. Ned didn't do anything after that too but Sansa goes further. Sansa chose to shrug it off and tranferred the blame to Arya and Mycah for the incident.

For me it's definitely Ned and Sansa's worst moment. They share it too.

In the end Sansa's core defence comes to: she was young, foolish, immature and naive and Ned was an adult so he should have known better. But it can't be denied that both were extremely callous about Mycah's life.