Sansa + Ned: What’s the Difference?

[Winter's Knight]

Ned implied breaking the betrothal when he told Cersei to get out of Dodge before Robert got back from his hunt. He implied breaking the betrothal when he told Sansa that he would find her a better husband. No, he never formally broke the betrothal, but he was going to. There was no way he was going to let Sansa marry him as soon as he found out that he really wasn't the legitimate heir. He could have, he could have played along with the whole thing, but then he wouldn't be Ned Stark would he?

This always worried me about Ned: Joff's a psychotic asshole who picks on his younger daughter and frightens his own father? Perfect husband?

Has the wrong DNA? STAY AWAY FROM MY DAUGHTER!

I mean, priorities man.

[Addam_Marbrand]

This always worried me about Ned: Joff's a psychotic asshole who picks on his younger daughter and frightens his own father? Perfect husband?

Has the wrong DNA? STAY AWAY FROM MY DAUGHTER!

I mean, priorities man.

Yeah. Except he considered breaking it before he found out about the incest.

Not to mention Ned did not like Joff even when discussing him with Bob.

[Winter's Knight]

Oh my god. It's exactly what Sansa does, isn't it? Everythings fine and forgiven because he's the prince.

[Winter's Knight]

Yeah. Except he considered breaking it before he found out about the incest.

Not to mention Ned did not like Joff even when discussing him with Bob.

Yet he was fine with his daughter interacting with him as a fiancee.

[Addam_Marbrand]

Yet he was fine with his daughter interacting with him as a fiancee.

He barely knew Joff. The kid was 12.

You're speaking with the bias of seeing Joff in Clash and Storm.

He doesn't have a high opinion of Joff, but its hardly enough for him to believe that he's as bad as we've seen him in later chapters.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Once Ned committed to being the Hand, and going to King's Landing, ostensibly to protect his family and protect his friend the King, he couldn't back out of the betrothal because doing so would have been an end move. He had to stick it out till the middle had been played out. He could have, but then he wouldn't be Ned.

[David Selig]

He barely knew Joff. The kid was 12.

You're speaking with the bias of seeing Joff in Clash and Storm.

He doesn't have a high opinion of Joff, but its hardly enough for him to believe that he's as bad as we've seen him in later chapters.

Robert told Ned straight out that Joff was so messed up it really worried him yet Ned didn't even consider breaking the betrothal at this point.

[Winter's Knight]

Robert told Ned straight out that Joff was so messed up it really worried him yet Ned didn't even consider breaking the betrothal at this point.

And Sansa has told Ned of Joff's actions at the Trident-if nothing else, he ought to be concerned about him leading Sansa away, unchaperoned and getting her drunk.

And attacking Arya, js.

[Addam_Marbrand]

Robert told Ned straight out that Joff was so messed up it really worried him yet Ned didn't even consider breaking the betrothal at this point.

You're exagerrating what Robert said, but I guess its okay to be dishonest if you want to bash a character.

He expressed disappointment and told Ned that he didn't know him like Robert did. He did say things about abdicating yes, but that was in part due to Cersei "whispering in his ear."

[Addam_Marbrand]

And Sansa has told Ned of Joff's actions at the Trident-if nothing else, he ought to be concerned about him leading Sansa away, unchaperoned and getting her drunk.

And attacking Arya, js.

I don't recall where Ned knew that Joff attacked Arya. Quote it.

[Mourneblade]

This always worried me about Ned: Joff's a psychotic asshole who picks on his younger daughter and frightens his own father? Perfect husband?

Has the wrong DNA? STAY AWAY FROM MY DAUGHTER!

I mean, priorities man.

It is in Ned's nature to not rush to judgement. He takes this betrothal as his oath. Ned cannot break that without very good reason. Being a bully at 13 or even a little liar, in this setting, is not enough evidence to the psychopath that we know Joff has become.

People who want to lay blame on Ned for this are not able to see or weight the events with Joffery through Ned's eyes, nor are they fully capable of seeing the reality of the world he lives in, or the full consequences of the choice they want Ned to make at the Trident. They expect Ned to see Joff's actions right then as proof to the monster he is, but fail to understand that this is only 1 bad event in eight months of charm or the fact that Ned did not actually see joff go full on crazy with his own eyes. That he has to judge this through the testimony of two daughters, one that will not blame Joff anything, and the other that already hates Joff.

[Winter's Knight]

I don't recall where Ned knew that Joff attacked Arya. Quote it.

Sansa told him, remember?

“I am sorry for your girl, Ned. Truly. About the wolf, I mean. My son was lying, I’d stake my soul on it. My son ... you love your children, don’t you?”

“With all my heart,” Ned said.

“Let me tell you a secret, Ned. More than once, I have dreamed of giving up the crown. Take ship for the Free Cities with my horse and my hammer, spend my time warring and whoring, that’s what I was made for. The sellsword king, how the singers would love me. You know what stops me? The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?”

“He’s only a boy,” Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert’s voice. “Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?”

“It would not trouble me if the boy was wild, Ned. You don’t know him as I do.” He sighed and shook his head. “Ah, perhaps you are right. Jon despaired of me often enough, yet I grew into a good king.” Robert looked at Ned and scowled at his silence. “You might speak up and agree now, you know.”

[Mourneblade]

And Sansa has told Ned of Joff's actions at the Trident-if nothing else, he ought to be concerned about him leading Sansa away, unchaperoned and getting her drunk.

And attacking Arya, js.

Concern is a good word, and Robert told him his son would be disciplined. This does ease concern, does not erase it, but this concern is no where near enough to break a betrothal in this setting.

[Winter's Knight]

It is in Ned's nature to not rush to judgement. He takes this betrothal as his oath. Ned cannot break that without very good reason. Being a bully at 13 or even a little liar, in this setting, is not enough evidence to the psychopath that we know Joff has become.

People who want to lay blame on Ned for this are not able to see or weight the events with Joffery through Ned's eyes, nor are they fully capable of seeing the reality of the world he lives in, or the full consequences of the choice they want Ned to make at the Trident. They expect Ned to see Joff's actions right then as proof to the monster he is, but fail to understand that this is only 1 bad event in eight months of charm or the fact that Ned did not actually see joff go full on crazy with his own eyes. That he has to judge this through the testimony of two daughters, one that will not blame Joff anything, and the other that already hates Joff.

Just replace every mention of "Ned" with "Sansa" would you?

[Addam_Marbrand]

Sansa told him, remember?

Quote the actual passage where this happened.

You quoted something else completely. I wonder why.

[David Selig]

You're exagerrating what Robert said, but I guess its okay to be dishonest if you want to bash a character.

He expressed disappointment and told Ned that he didn't know him like Robert did. He did say things about abdicating yes, but that was in part due to Cersei "whispering in his ear."

No exaggeration. Robert was really worried about his son, not just disappointed.

“I am sorry for your girl, Ned. Truly. About the wolf, I mean. My son was lying, I’d stake my soul on it. My son … you love your children, don’t you?”

“With all my heart,” Ned said.

“Let me tell you a secret, Ned. More than once, I have dreamed of giving up the crown. Take ship for the Free Cities with my horse and my hammer, spend my time warring and whoring, that’s what I was made for. The sellsword king, how the singers would love me. You know what stops me? The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?”

“He’s only a boy,” Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert’s voice. “Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?”

“It would not trouble me if the boy was wild, Ned. You don’t know him as I do.”

[Mourneblade]

I don't recall where Ned knew that Joff attacked Arya. Quote it.

"Ned knew the truth"

Sansa blames the whole mess on Arya and tells Ned the honest truth from that point of view.

[Addam_Marbrand]

No exaggeration. Robert was really worried about his son, not just disappointed.

No. You're exagerating as usual.

The last bolded part is very vague. The rest is just disappointment.

Son was lying? It could be due to cowardice.

2nd bolded part can be straight up interpreted as disappointment.

3rd part? Vague.

[Mladen]

Butter but you are attempting to excuse Sansa her actions by suggesting that most, or, all of her choices were made out of duty, loyalty, and love. Or at the very least attempt to tear down Ned by comparison. Your goal is a simple one. To attempt to show us, that if we admire Ned we should also admire Sansa, by comparison, or or at the very least, if we see Sansa in a negative light, that we should view Ned in that very same light.

I think we should all take a step back and don't turn this about exonerating anyone. What OP wanted is simply to see the huge parallels between two stories, the trains of thoughts, and yes even the nature of them, and collide that with such very different reactions to their mistakes we, readers have. There is no goal here... Just simple analysis of very different reaction to quite striking similarities. And I think that we should all have a good faith and not say that everyone has some goal around here. So, there is no exoneration of Sansa by OP, which is rather clear, only a point OP made in which we use double standards for quite similar situations.

The Other character does not want any part in their role as Pawn, but is betrayed by his very own nature, the bedrock of the foundation of his core being, his love for his family, and the integrity of his honor. He stands helpless as he is witness to his core being chiseled away by other parts. Honor to the memory of a father figure, Loyalty to an undeserving King, and The duty to protect a family and arm them with the tools needed to survive. These three collide to devastating and horrible effect as he desperately tries to stay true to a nature that is spiting him in three very different directions. His own being, his very nature, that has protected him and his family all these years being used as the hammer and nails in the coffin of his own making. And in the end sacrificing everything, that he ever was, in attempt to give each member his family one last tool for survival. Winter is Coming.

Very beautifully written, but a flawed conclusion. Ned's entire core is more than just about honor, loyalty and duty. He wonderfully exemplifies how that dilemma between honor and love is always in, as Jon said "the right thing". So, one has to understand that Ned always did what was the right thing, not was rigid honorable thing. He did the right thing when he rebelled, he did the right thing when he supported Robert to become a King, he did the right thing when he brought Jon to be raised with him (regardless of R+L=J, but even more enhanced with it), and lastly he did the right thing when he saved Sansa's life by naming himself a traitor. So, Ned's cold honor is also intertwined with the passionate love he feels for his family. Ned is not as honorable as much as he is righteous... And that is something we should always have in mind, that Ned didn't sacrifice his core to protect Sansa, he solely did what he has been doing many times - the right thing. And that is what is beyond any doubt, the most admirable thing about Ned. Not his code of honor, loyalty to the King or some dutiful behavior, but his ability to always do the right thing.

[Winter's Knight]

Quote the actual passage where this happened.

You quoted something else completely. I wonder why.

In reply to this?

You're exagerrating what Robert said, but I guess its okay to be dishonest if you want to bash a character.

He expressed disappointment and told Ned that he didn't know him like Robert did. He did say things about abdicating yes, but that was in part due to Cersei "whispering in his ear."

As to the other quote, I'm looking through my files yeah?

“Joff told us what happened,” the queen said. “You and the butcher boy beat him with clubs while you set your wolf on him.”

“That’s not how it was,” Arya said, close to tears again. Ned put a hand on her shoulder.

“Yes it is!” Prince Joffrey insisted. “They all attacked me, and she threw Lion’s Tooth in the river!” Ned noticed that he did not so much as glance at Arya as he spoke.

“Liar!” Arya yelled.

“Shut up!” the prince yelled back.

“Enough!” the king roared, rising from his seat, his voice thick with irritation. Silence fell. He glowered at Arya through his thick beard.

“Now, child, you will tell me what happened. Tell it all, and tell it true. It is a great crime to lie to a king.” Then he looked over at his son.

“When she is done, you will have your turn. Until then, hold your tongue.”

As Arya began her story, Ned heard the door open behind him. He glanced back and saw Vayon Poole enter with Sansa. They stood quietly at the back of the hall as Arya spoke.

(Renly laughs and gets kicked out)

Prince Joffrey was pale as he began his very different version of events. When his son was done talking, the king rose heavily from his seat, looking like a man who wanted to be anywhere but here. “What in all the seven hells am I supposed to make of this? He says one thing, she says another.”

“They were not the only ones present,” Ned said. “Sansa, come here.” Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. “Tell us what happened.”