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butterbumps!

Sansa + Ned: What’s the Difference?

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Actually, mercy plays role at only one situation, when Ned realizes that lives of three children are at stake. But, his quest is completely "honor vs. love". Ned puts everything aside, and blindly goes investigating. When Trident incident happened, and when he realized what he is doing to his daughter, he could have said "Screw this, Sansa, go home." But no, he choose the more painful road. He knew that he has to find out who killed Jon Arryn, and he put it as his priority, alongside protecting Robert's life. His daughters came last, especially Sansa. As a parent, Ned should have noticed the troubling signs of Sansa's love for Joffrey. He should have sat and talked to her, he should have made her see Joffrey in his real suit. The saddest thing, and greatest failure of Ned is that he broke the engagements off not because Joffrey was wrong for his daughter, but because Robert was callous about Ned's troubles. Ned was an honorable man, but he should have known his priorities. He should have understood what comes first. And in that, he made the same mistake Sansa made. Because, in the great equation of love vs honor, love kicks honor's ass every time. Ned forgot that and unfortunately, he paid for it.

Mercy plays a big role in Ned's arc in AGOT IMO. He has mercy for Cersei and the kids, for Robert's bastards and for Dany. Of course all this events are also motivated by honor but there's a lot of compassion involved otherwise Ned wouldn't evoke the Barristan incident in RR to convince Robert.

And he going to talk to Cersei is a key event, his big mistake committed because he was a good man and the pararell with Sansa is her going to the queen to warn her about Ned's plans. This is the main reason some people dislike Sansa and her reasons weren't as sympathetic as Ned's IMO. He chose to give a chance to the woman who tried to murder his son out of pity and because he thought it was the right thing to do to avoid innocent blood. He pities her during all the scene while Cersei reacts to his kindness with scorn and arrogance. That's a moral fiber that very few people have. I don't see that kind of thing in Sansa in AGOT. Later, yes. But if we are discussing AGOT that is one of the reasons I didn't see many reason to admire her during AGOT. Usually I don't like to criticize Sansa because I actually like her and her story is super-interesting but as this thread is deliberately restricted to her character in AGOT I put my reasons why I didn't have much sympathy for her yet.

And I disagree that love always trumps honor. Love can be selfish, amoral and irresponsible IMO. Jaime chose love over honor when he pushed Bran out of the window for example. Ned had a big responsibility to the realm. He could have tried being a better father but ultimately he sit with Sansa and explained that:

Actually Joff's nature more than likely did play into Ned wanting to cancel it

"When you're old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me."

I cannot find anything else about the betrothal by Ned after this, but to me, it seems as though he realized that his daughter marrying Joff was a bad idea because of his nature. Not because of any political dissent(though that likely did play a part in his motivation as well)

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Ned and Sansa both know the truth of the Trident, but neither speaks. After the case is dismissed, Ned kills Lady personally. It comes across as an honorable act by a man who obeys his king, but is it truly? Aside from the fact that Ned could have sent Lady back to Winterfell alive just as easily (no proof was needed), is it really so honorable to knowingly kill an innocent party because your king commanded you to? A king who just made it very clear he is neither concerned with justice or your own welfare? Is this not a case of siding with Stark-antagonists?

Butterbumps, liked everything, wonderful post, just a few points I wanted to comment on. Why did Ned kill Lady? No reason at all. It's not even what Robert really wanted. He's doing something wrong, and he knows it. He thinks about it later, what have I done?

When Ned goes to Cersei, he’s fully aware of how dire the situation is; she’s guilty of high treason. He goes to her in order to gain confession and let her get a head start so that she can secure the safety of her own children. And he does this, knowing how serious the charges are, before securing the safety of his daughters. He is, quite literally, putting Lannister children before his own. Yet, why do we see Sansa’s appeal to Cersei, when she has no idea of the situation and thinks there’s been some small misunderstanding, as more egregious than Ned’s actions here? Why does she come across as a “betrayer,” while Ned remains our “core hero”?

THIS THIS THIS. And as you pointed out in the sequence of events, he repeatedly does this, once again, he knows he's putting them in danger, and he continues to do so.

In some ways, Sansa is crafted almost like an antagonist to Ned; her actions are largely set up as rebellions against her father. Which is damning in terms of character perception, because Ned is our great sympathetic good guy. Yet, in objective truth, Ned is the one Stark who continuously puts Robert and the Lannister interests ahead of his own family.

Exactly.

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Butterbumps, liked everything, wonderful post, just a few points I wanted to comment on. Why did Ned kill Lady? No reason at all. It's not even what Robert really wanted. He's doing something wrong, and he knows it. He thinks about it later, what have I done?

Cersei wanted Lady killed, and Robert wouldn't it deny it to her. By condoning her wishes, he indirectly makes it a command. Ned feels obligated to follow that command because 1. its his king, 2. he doesn't want more trouble between himself and Robert, 3. Lady was dead moment Cersei opened her mouth; he didn't want her to have satisfaction of having the pelt to wear.

But yeah, it was wrong of him do so. In fact, I don't understand why everyone uses the Trident incident to criticize Sansa. Like, she can't call the prince a liar, but she can't throw her sister under the bus, so she takes the third option and stays neutral (though personally I believe she honestly couldn't remember the exact details), but then everyone says she's "not a true Stark", whatever that means.

Meanwhile, Ned knows what's going on. This isn't a childish argument gone bad-its an act of aggression against his family. This is a glimpse into Robert's court, into the game of thrones, and he goes along with it (unwillingly, yes, but he has more options than Sansa ever did). The adults (+Joffrey) are the ones in the wrong, but all the blame and punishment fall on Sansa's shoulders. Why?

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Mercy plays a big role in Ned's arc in AGOT IMO. He has mercy for Cersei and the kids, for Robert's bastards and for Dany. Of course all this events are also motivated by honor but there's a lot of compassion involved otherwise Ned wouldn't evoke the Barristan incident in RR to convince Robert.

Mercy does play a role, but it is always bound with honor. Ned doesn't want to kill Daenerys not because he is some paragon of mercy, for he isn't, but because it is dishonorable to kill a child that way, His biggest issue in that conversation is Jorah Mormont aiding them, then Daenerys. He is not merciful to Robert's bastards, for there was no need. They weren't in danger from him. As for Barristan, once again, it wasn't mercy, as much as it is honor. Ned's code of honor trumps everything else.

And he going to talk to Cersei is a key event, his big mistake committed because he was a good man and the pararell with Sansa is her going to the queen to warn her about Ned's plans. This is the main reason some people dislike Sansa and her reasons weren't as sympathetic as Ned's IMO. He chose to give a chance to the woman who tried to murder his son out of pity and because he thought it was the right thing to do to avoid innocent blood. He pities her during all the scene while Cersei reacts to his kindness with scorn and arrogance. That's a moral fiber that very few people have. I don't see that kind of thing in Sansa in AGOT. Later, yes. But if we are discussing AGOT that is one of the reasons I didn't see many reason to admire her during AGOT. Usually I don't like to criticize Sansa because I actually like her and her story is super-interesting but as this thread is deliberately restricted to her character in AGOT I put my reasons why I didn't have much sympathy for her yet.

In terms of moral high-ground, Sansa hasn't changed a lot. Her ideals, the ideals implemented by her parents, haven't changed that much. We see Sansa reacting just like Ned throughout the entire series, and that is something we can't say Sansa got in ACOK. It is something she always had. The main problem I have with Ned got a free pass is because Sansa's action is as much on him as it is on her. He should have been more careful. He should have prioritized things first. You do not allow your daughter to madly fall in love with a lunatic, and then just say "hey, I know I put you into this mess, I know I encouraged you, but now I changed my mind". Ned's persuasion came too late. He allowed that infatuation to grow uncontrollably and then he suddenly wanted to quit it. What Sansa did in many ways can be understood, because Ned totally blind sided her.

And I disagree that love always trumps honor. Love can be selfish, amoral and irresponsible IMO. Jaime chose love over honor when he pushed Bran out of the window for example. Ned had a big responsibility to the realm. He could have tried being a better father but ultimately he sit with Sansa and explained that:

It does... Let we not pretend that the honorable way is the only right way. When we are talking about Jaime, if he had chosen honor, he would have participated in the mass murdering. He chose love and saved half a million people. If Ned chose honor over love, he would have given Jon to Robert, and then Jon would meet the same fate as his half-siblings. One can even argue that Jaime pushing Bran off the window is actually his duty to the Queen and Crown princes. After all, he is KG, and his duty is to protect them. Not that in any way makes it more understandable. What about Aerys raping Rhaella? Those knights were honorable bunch of people, and a poor woman was being raped and beaten while they were listening... That was their honor. That is the reason why we got Aemon asking that question, and Jon giving vague answer that coexists between honor and love. But, in Martin's universe, people rarely choose honor over love, and when they do, they pay for it. Ned paid it, plain and simple.

As for him sitting with Sansa, don't you find troubling when he talked to her? Everything Joffrey did was nothing. Robert even told him how worried he is about Joffrey, and it didn't concern him. Ned chooses to go when his friendship is at stake, when he is being hurt by Robert and his actions. The trigger for him deciding to go wasn't Joffrey's nature, but actually disappointment in Robert.

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Cersei wanted Lady killed, and Robert wouldn't it deny it to her. By condoning her wishes, he indirectly makes it a command. Ned feels obligated to follow that command because 1. its his king, 2. he doesn't want more trouble between himself and Robert, 3. Lady was dead moment Cersei opened her mouth; he didn't want her to have satisfaction of having the pelt to wear.

1. His obligation is to his children. 2. Robert being annoyed with him doesn't trump #1 3. No, Lady was dead when Ned killed her. He had another choice, as butterbumps pointed out. Send her back home. Even Arya knew that, she sent Nymeria off herself. Arya was right. Here, Ned himself regrets killing Lady:

And when she was done, Eddard Stark sat dazed beside the table, the dagger in his hand. Bran's wolf had saved the boy's life, he thought dully. What was it that Jon had said when they found the pups in the snow? Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord. And he had killed Sansa's, and for what? Was it guilt he was feeling? Or fear? If the gods had sent these wolves, what folly had he done?

As a final point, given that both are more or less doing their duty in terms of motive, and trip over similar issues, is it truly fair to overlook Ned's actions and call Sansa "stupid" for believing in the world of song? (I hasten to add that this isn't geared toward you, just something that spun off from your response) It seems to me they made the same errors in judgment, believing people to be as noble as they are in the legends rather than reality.

This is very true. They are both very much alike.

That is exactly the opposite of trying to kill someone. That is called literary hesitation. She is trying to talk herself into pushing him, it is made clear that she had a moment where should could have killed him, but failed to do so.

No, she was going to not only kill Joffrey, but likely kill herself in the process:

All it would take was a shove, she told herself. He was standing right there, right there, smirking at her with those fat wormlips. You could do it, she told herself. You could. Do it right now. It wouldn't even matter if she went over with him. It wouldn't matter at all.

"Here, girl." Sandor Clegane knelt before her, between her and Joffrey. With a delicacy surprising in such a big man, he dabbed at the blood welling from her broken lip.

Sandor actually saved Sansa's life right here. He thought she was going to do it. And later, he calls back to that moment here:

Iron fingers caught her by the wrist before she could fall, and a deep voice rasped at her. "It's a long roll down the serpentine, little bird. Want to kill us both?" His laughter was rough as a saw on stone. "Maybe you do."

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Ned did not have to kill Lady. He made the choice to kill Lady. And he regretted it. Arya knew what to do:

“We had to throw rocks,” she said miserably. “I told her to run, to go be free, that I didn’t want her anymore. There were other wolves for her to play with, we heard them howling, and Jory said the woods were full of game, so she’d have deer to hunt. Only she kept following, and finally we had to throw rocks. I hit her twice. She whined and looked at me and I felt so ’shamed, but it was right, wasn’t it? The queen would have killed her.

It was right,” her father said. “And even the lie was … not without honor.”

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In terms of moral high-ground, Sansa hasn't changed a lot. Her ideals, the ideals implemented by her parents, haven't changed that much. We see Sansa reacting just like Ned throughout the entire series, and that is something we can't say Sansa got in ACOK. It is something she always had. The main problem I have with Ned got a free pass is because Sansa's action is as much on him as it is on her. He should have been more careful. He should have prioritized things first. You do not allow your daughter to madly fall in love with a lunatic, and then just say "hey, I know I put you into this mess, I know I encouraged you, but now I changed my mind". Ned's persuasion came too late. He allowed that infatuation to grow uncontrollably and then he suddenly wanted to quit it. What Sansa did in many ways can be understood, because Ned totally blind sided her.

I think it's unfair to say Ned blind sided her. Sansa's infatuation with Joffrey grew out of control not because he encouraged her in any way. She decided to overlook everything he did. I don't see her being young is an excuse (it's understandable but not an excuse). When I was eleven I despised a bully just as I do now and if a girl I liked humiliated and beated a person weaker than her for no reason in front of me (let alone getting him/her killed later) I would not try to excuse her behavior. He should have broken the marriage but he only saw glimpses of Joffrey's true nature. Sansa saw his ugly side at first hand: she saw him cowardly bullying and later causing the death of an innocent boy. And if that didn't change permanently Sansa's view I don't know what would do. Ned knew what happened later and also chose to trivialize the event, so in this case he was negligent and irresponsible too but I don't agree he should take all the fault. Sansa is as wrong as him. Arya is the only one who makes a stand and acts truly honorably in this occasion. I can't remember an occasion in AGOT that Sansa chooses to go on a path that doesn't benefit her and instead opted to do what she thought was right even if there was an easier way out. That is honor to me. To face a dilemma and decide for what you think it's right without taking into account what benefits you. It's tricky and sometimes it can lead you to make stupid decisions that may cause more damage than not but it's impressive all the same.

It does... Let we not pretend that the honorable way is the only right way. When we are talking about Jaime, if he had chosen honor, he would have participated in the mass murdering. He chose love and saved half a million people. If Ned chose honor over love, he would have given Jon to Robert, and then Jon would meet the same fate as his half-siblings. One can even argue that Jaime pushing Bran off the window is actually his duty to the Queen and Crown princes. After all, he is KG, and his duty is to protect them. Not that in any way makes it more understandable. What about Aerys raping Rhaella? Those knights were honorable bunch of people, and a poor woman was being raped and beaten while they were listening... That was their honor. That is the reason why we got Aemon asking that question, and Jon giving vague answer that coexists between honor and love. But, in Martin's universe, people rarely choose honor over love, and when they do, they pay for it. Ned paid it, plain and simple.

As for him sitting with Sansa, don't you find troubling when he talked to her? Everything Joffrey did was nothing. Robert even told him how worried he is about Joffrey, and it didn't concern him. Ned chooses to go when his friendship is at stake, when he is being hurt by Robert and his actions. The trigger for him deciding to go wasn't Joffrey's nature, but actually disappointment in Robert.

No, I'm not saying the honorable way is always the right way but the opposite is also not true like you said. Love is tricky too. It can lead us to make unfair decisions because love is not inclusive. We can love only a few people in the world and if we put them unconditionally above everyone and everything else things get really troublesome. Jaime does it with Cersei, Cersei does it with Joffrey. That's why I don't see their "love" as redeeming qualities at all. In my opinion it only makes them worse.The opposite is also true. If we choose to be completely fair without measuring our judgements with empathy and compassion, that is also terrible. KG's vows are not honorable to me. The KG is dutiful and have a strict code of conduct but their moral failure in events like Aerys raping his wife is evident. I don't see it as the honorable way. Jaime's decision to stop Aerys when he found out about the wildfire was honorable. Ned's sense of honor is tempered by empathy and is different of whatever the KG calls honor. Davos' sense of honor is even worthier and more impressive than Ned's. It can't be argued that what Jaime did was out of duty or honor when he pushed Bran because if he cared about that he wouldn't have sex with the queen. He did it because he loved a despicable person.

It's troublesome but if Ned didn't have to handle with so many things and face so much difficult choices I think he would be a better father. If he had to send her back crying to Winterfell without explaining anything to her would still be better than abandoning the king and the realm to Lannisters' hideous plots. But I agree. He shouldn't have consented to the marriage just as Sansa shouldn't have let her feelings and dellusions get in her way. Both cases are understandable but I have more sympathy for Ned because he had a lot on his plate.

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No, she was going to not only kill Joffrey, but likely kill herself in the process:

Sandor actually saved Sansa's life right here. He thought she was going to do it. And later, he calls back to that moment here:

There is a huge difference between want and actually doing. She considers it for quite a few seconds. If given time to think it out she might have done exactly that. It is entirely debatable though.

However she didn't, but she certainly had the chance, and was certainly trying to talk herself into it. So much so that Sandor noticed at least the danger, and ended that moment and opportunity. As far as saving her if she actually was going to do it, sure he certainly did.

I am sure he is recalling here as I am sure he is thinking back to that ledge.

This is similar to when Joff dies. She does not do the deed, but she is assumed to have done it because she has in your face motive and opportunity. I only bring this up not to debate that event but to understand what is possibly going through Sandor's mind right there. She has Motive, and opportunity, he might have come to that very same conclusion on his own.

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The difference to the readers is not so much reader perception but rather the character's self-perception. Ned is much better at self-justification than Sansa. And Sansa never thinks "I am conditioned to want this." She only thinks "I want this." The actual difference between these two characters on a good/evil-heroic/villainous basis is, however, is pretty huge.

When you really think about Ned you realize that he is pretty awful, especially about Sansa's betrothal. He had so many excuses to say no to that, so many moments to get out of it (for good reasons and excellent reasons), so many chances to take the time and judge Joffrey as a person (and find him inevitably wanting) - and he had had the ultimate lesson about betrothals gone wrong with his sister. Instead he engages his 11-year-old(!) daughter to someone it took very little time to identify as "a little shit". And he held onto that betrothal even though it became obvious after the Lady incident that there is a high likelihood that he was condemning his sweet, harmless daughter to a hellish marriage for the rest of her life.

But here is the thing - just because Ned is awful, if you remove his layer of self-justification and self-deception, doesn't make Sansa's failure to see through herself, her conditioning, her denial, her inate ability to delude herself to make life more bearable any more endearing. That requires something else: even more distance.

Sansa's AGOT situation, if you think through it from the omnipotent point of view, is something you would find in a horror story about child brides. (Her betrothed is a sociopath, her mom-in-law an abusive horror, and her family hands her pre-pubescent self over into their power without any qualms.) That Ned, the one who hands her over, is perceived as the hero and Sansa is annoying, is GRRM at his perhaps best. To make us reader to accept that values dissonance without question, just through the smart use of POVs, is pretty astonishing. If it was intentional, then GRRM expected us to read between the lines and come to the fridge realization of Sansa's child bride horror situation and take measure of these characters accordingly. By modern standards on men who knowingly marry off their pre-pubescent daughters to sociopaths, Ned is a villain and Sansa's fate is so tragic and the abuse at Ned's hand so great that one could probably forgive her if she had beheaded Ned herself.

But either GRRM never intended that fridge horror, vastly underestimated his ability to sell values dissonance, or vastly overestimated his audience to see things with distance. So Ned comes across as a hero, and Sansa as a vapid twit to most, if not all readers.

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No, Sansa's arc in KL is a purposeful reality check on princess fairy tales. Its Disney Princess meet Reservoir Dogs.She disobeys her father to be with her love, only to find out that beautiful Cersei is the "Evil Queen", and that her gallant "Prince Charming" is vile and evil, and he executes her father. Every person Sansa considers beautiful in Kings Landing are cruel and evil, and the Ugly and Disfigured are kind and good. The Kings Guard all handsome knights who beat her, except the ugly, scarred, non knight, who is kind and gentle. This is capped off by one of GRRMs bitter ironys.

This is a really wonderful example of simplifying and stereotyping everything in order to fit into your neat little box... with quite a lot of twisting of the facts.

"Every person Sansa considers beautiful in Kings Landing are cruel and evil, and the Ugly and Disfigured are kind and good. The Kings Guard all handsome knights who beat her, except the ugly, scarred, non knight, who is kind and gentle."

Err...not really. None of the KG are particularly handsome. No one ever called Meryn Trent handsome. Boros Blount is someone even Tyrion will call ugly. Mandon Moore has "dead eyes" as his distinguishing trait. Arys may be nice-looking, though he's not supposed to be such a pretty boy as Darkstar in Arianne's eyes - and he's actually a nice and honorable guy who just can't say no to Joffrey's orders... well, because a KG member doesn't get to say no to Joffrey's orders.

The people in KL that Sansa considered handsome or beautiful include: prince Joffrey, Loras Tyrell, Renly Baratheon, Cersei Lannister, Margaery Tyrell. Now, Joffrey is the obvious subversion of the "Handsome Prince" trope and Cersei turns out to be an Evil Queen, and Margaery is a false friend. However, Loras never did anything wrong to Sansa, he just wasn't interested in her (not surprising considering he's gay), which is not a crime. Renly never did anything to Sansa, he had nothing to do with her at all.

Dontos was fat and homely and a drunk; Sansa saved him and was glad to accept his help when he offered to take her home. But he was also working for LF and taking his gold all the time.

Sandor genuinely tries to help her and he is kind and gentle, compared to the others... when he's not insulting her and telling her she's a stupid little bird, that her father was a killer, and that the world is awful, and when he's not threatening to kill her and putting a knife to her throat. And I say that as a big fan of Sandor and his relationship with Sansa.

And then there's Tyrion, who was kind and gentle - except when he made her take her clothes off, groped her breast and almost went through with raping her, and felt resentful when she rejected him, despite knowing that she was a 12-year old girl forced into a marriage with him by the family who was holding her hostage.

Martin subverts the idea of "ugly/deformed = monstrous" and "beautiful = good", but he's also aware that writing a story in which "beautiful = evil" and "ugly/deformed = good" would be just as stupid as the other way round.

Tyrion is everything Sansa could hope for in a husband at the time, except all those things are warped in the body of a stunted, ugly, man from the family that killed her father. It reinforces her skin deep judgments of people, and serves to frame her kings landing disney princess persona, where ugly = villain and beauty = trust worthy.

How can I say this nicely? This is such a load of bullshit. :lol:

Tyrion is everything Sansa could hope for in a husband at the time? Like - what?

  • a husband who is a part of the house that has been at war with her family, and who has been actively supporting his family in that war, and who she can never completely trust

a husband who would, if he 'consummated' his marriage to her, and especially if he got a child from her, ensure the defeat of her family's and her own interests, and secure the Lannister hold on Winterfell

a husband she is not in love with

a husband she finds completely physically unattractive, so much that the idea of sex with him disgusts and terrifies her, despite the fact that she doesn't dislike him as a person compared to the other Lannisters*

a husband who doesn't love her, thinks that she is a naive child, doesn't understand her (he thinks she still may be in love with Joffrey!) and isn't even particularly interested in her as a person, but is only attracted to her young beautiful body and her claim to Winterfell

a husband who is having a relationship with another woman (his prostitute/'girlfriend') that he's in love with, though he would be willing to start having sex with Sansa instead, his pretty young child bride

a husband who is so emotionally needy and immature that, despite not being in love with Sansa and knowing that she has every possible reason in the world not to want to be married to him, he fantasizes of her coming willingly to his bed and asking for his emotional comfort, as an obvious replacement/enactment of his first love he lost at the age of 13... and resents Sansa for not wanting him and not fulfilling that fantasy.

And that's without mentioning the fact that she was just 12 at the time! WHY THE FUCK WOULD SHE NEED A HUSBAND IN THE FIRST PLACE?! Who on Earth thinks that a 12-year old should be happy to be married to an adult man who wants to have sex with her ASAP, even if he's not raping her, but expecting her to start wanting him like, during the following couple of months, if you please?

Tyrion was, pretty much, the opposite of everything Sansa hoped for in a husband - except that he wasn't a monster like Joffrey or Ramsey. And if not being a rapist monster or not beating and abusing your wife is the only condition for being an "ideal husband", geez, you're setting the bar really low, aren't you?

* But of course, Sansa has to prove her "maturity" by being sexually attracted to Tyrion, or being ready to accept sex with him; we all know that sleeping with a person you find physically repulsive is one of the basic rites of passage that proves you're a mature, non-shallow adult. Oh wait, it's not?

Oddly enough, nobody makes the same requirements of the male characters in the series - including Tyrion himself, who happens to only want sex with conventionally good-looking women, is disgusted at the idea of marrying Lollys Stockworth and says he'd "rather cut it off and give it to the goats" (he does not react that way to the suggestion to marry the beautiful child bride and heir to Winterfell, even though he is reluctant because she would be unwilling), and, lo and behold, when he meets a female dwarf for the first time, and she is romantically interested in him - he rejects her advances, because he's not attracted to her. Do you think that this "reinforces his skin deep judgments of people" and that he should hook up with her to show that he is not "shallow"?

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/Snip

Please read my all my posts about this. I twisted nothing, you are defending Sansa when I am not attacking her.

My observations are based on the similarities between the character Sansa and the character Ariel from Disney's The Little Mermaid. There is enough of a correlation that it has the strong appearance of GRRM giving Disney and fairy tales in general a huge dose of reality.

You are going to find some holes in the theory, he did not copy Ariel word for word, because he is not a plagiarist.

As to the other stuff, you take this far too seriously, You are having difficulty maintaining the context of the story. You have also only listed the negative aspects of this from your own modern and out of context point of view.

Also try and read my observation of the Tyrion Marriage in context as well. Tryion treated her extremely well, respected her privacy and innocence and attempted on many occasions to engage her in genuine conversation. He never hurt her. At the time, and in that setting, is there any other male that would have done the same?

GRRM wrote Sansa to appear shallow to the readers, that is a fact, so when we discuss it, try to keep that in mind.

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Please read my all my posts about this. I twisted nothing, you are defending Sansa when I am not attacking her.

My observations are based on the similarities between the character Sansa and the character Ariel from Disney's The Little Mermaid. There is enough of a correlation that it has the strong appearance of GRRM giving Disney and fairy tales in general a huge dose of reality.

You are going to find some holes in the theory, he did not copy Ariel word for word, because he is not a plagiarist.

As to the other stuff, you take this far too seriously, You are having difficulty maintaining the context of the story. You have also only listed the negative aspects of this from your own modern and out of context point of view.

Also try and read my observation of the Tyrion Marriage in context as well. Tryion treated her extremely well, respected her privacy and innocence and attempted on many occasions to engage her in genuine conversation. He never hurt her. At the time, and in that setting, is there any other male that would have done the same?

Yes. I can think of quite a lot of men in the series who would not rape or abuse a girl in that situation. It's pretty disturbing and also mind-boggling if you think that every man in the series who's not Tyrion is a ruthless rapist and abuser who would do anything to get his hands on Winterfell.

GRRM wrote Sansa to appear shallow to the readers, that is a fact, so when we discuss it, try to keep that in mind.

That's not a "fact". You need to learn the meaning of the word "fact".

If you think that Sansa is shallow for not wanting to open her legs to Tyrion, that says a lot about you and other fans who maintain the same, and the depth of their misogynistic prejudice and double standards.

I'm now thinking that Martin may have successfully trolled his readership by setting the stage for a bunch of his readers to come out and claim that a 12-year old girl is shallow for not wanting to be married and have sex with a 25-year old grotesquely ugly man she doesn't love and who doesn't love her and that she's forced to marry by the evil family who's been keeping her hostage and killing her family members, in order to steal her family's lands. That's quite an accomplishment.

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Please read my all my posts about this. I twisted nothing, you are defending Sansa when I am not attacking her.

My observations are based on the similarities between the character Sansa and the character Ariel from Disney's The Little Mermaid. There is enough of a correlation that it has the strong appearance of GRRM giving Disney and fairy tales in general a huge dose of reality.

You are going to find some holes in the theory, he did not copy Ariel word for word, because he is not a plagiarist.

As to the other stuff, you take this far too seriously, You are having difficulty maintaining the context of the story. You have also only listed the negative aspects of this from your own modern and out of context point of view.

Also try and read my observation of the Tyrion Marriage in context as well. Tryion treated her extremely well, respected her privacy and innocence and attempted on many occasions to engage her in genuine conversation. He never hurt her. At the time, and in that setting, is there any other male that would have done the same?

GRRM wrote Sansa to appear shallow to the readers, that is a fact, so when we discuss it, try to keep that in mind.

I agree, I give you credit for trying, that's all I will say here.

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Yes. I can think of quite a lot of men in the series who would not rape or abuse a girl in that situation. It's pretty disturbing and also mind-boggling if you think that every man in the series who's not Tyrion is a ruthless rapist and abuser who would do anything to get his hands on Winterfell.

That's not a "fact". You need to learn the meaning of the word "fact".

If you think that Sansa is shallow for not wanting to open her legs to Tyrion, that says a lot about you and other fans who maintain the same, and the depth of their misogynistic prejudice and double standards.

I'm now thinking that Martin may have successfully trolled his readership by setting the stage for a bunch of his readers to come out and claim that a 12-year old girl is shallow for not wanting to be married and have sex with a 25-year old grotesquely ugly man she doesn't love and who doesn't love her and that she's forced to marry by the evil family who's been keeping her hostage and killing her family members, in order to steal her family's lands. That's quite an accomplishment.

I think you are completely missing the point, have no understanding of context, and totally clouded by your own personal modern bias.

You also have difficulty with reading and understanding my observations.

Example.

"GRRM wrote Sansa to appear shallow to the readers, that is a fact, so when we discuss it, try to keep that in mind."

You respond with this.

"If you think that Sansa is shallow for not wanting to open her legs to Tyrion, that says a lot about you and other fans who maintain the same, and the depth of their misogynistic prejudice and double standards."

I cannot even begin to fathom how you interpreted what I wrote to fit how you responded with what you did. :dunno:

This will be my last attempt to reach you on this.

The setting is Westeros. It is a Male dominated feudal society with its own moral and ethical ideals, most of these are not in line with our own modern ones. This is the context. When discussing characters set in these times, the observer should be careful to judge them in the proper context of the setting.

Example.

Tryion treated her extremely well, respected her privacy and innocence and attempted on many occasions to engage her in genuine conversation. He never hurt her. At the time, and in that setting, is there any other male that would have done the same?

The time is when she has zero control over her fate. The setting is her captivity in kingslanding in the land of Westeros.

Honestly if I was a Sansa fanatic, I would be praising the marriage to Tyrion, and thankful that it was him and only him, because of how he treated her and that left her innocence intact. He might end up as the most vile creature that ever lived, and to some he already is, based on his actions, but if he has one redeeming moment, it is how he treated Sansa.

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Tryion treated her extremely well, respected her privacy and innocence and attempted on many occasions to engage her in genuine conversation. He never hurt her. At the time, and in that setting, is there any other male that would have done the same?

The time is when she has zero control over her fate. The setting is her captivity in kingslanding in the land of Westeros.

You keep taking the conversation here, even though this isn't the topic. This was supposed to be about Sansa and Ned. But this assertion that Tyrion treated Sansa "exceptionally well" is provocative. This is where you lose many of us. (Not to mention the Ariel thing, you may want to check out Beauty and the Beast, that's the story he borrows lines/plots from, lots of textual and external evidence, even the script GRRM wrote was staged like La Belle et la Bete).

How is it that forcibly marrying her, Tyrion had no choice, but forcibly consummating the marriage, he did have a choice? That's illogical. The whole purpose of the marriage was to rape her for heirs to secure Winterfell. You can't have it both ways. Either she was going to be eventually raped OR Tyrion did not, in fact, have to marry her. Things weren't just going to stay that way. She was not only desperately miserable, but in danger, and she knew it, that's why she escaped. He could have let her return to her family (before his family killed them), or helped her escape to a safer place than with Littlefinger! Forcible marriage is Ramsay Bolton territory. Her life was in danger from the moment that happened, either after she was raped for heirs, or now, the regicide plot.

If you want to try to understand Sansa, look at things from her perspective. He wasn't being a nice guy. She doesn't think so. "I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie." He doesn't even think so. "I want Winterfell." He said it. Robb was going to cut off Tyrion's head to free her from him. He didn't think so, either. Nor did Catelyn. She was forced to bear the "vile children" of a "faithless dwarf."

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You keep taking the conversation here, even though this isn't the topic. This was supposed to be about Sansa and Ned. But this assertion that Tyrion treated Sansa "exceptionally well" is provocative. This is where you lose many of us. (Not to mention the Ariel thing, you may want to check out Beauty and the Beast, that's the story he borrows lines/plots from, lots of textual and external evidence, even the script GRRM wrote was staged like La Belle et la Bete).

How is it that forcibly marrying her, Tyrion had no choice, but forcibly consummating the marriage, he did have a choice? That's illogical. The whole purpose of the marriage was to rape her for heirs to secure Winterfell. You can't have it both ways. Either she was going to be eventually raped OR Tyrion did not, in fact, have to marry her. Things weren't just going to stay that way. She was not only desperately miserable, but in danger, and she knew it, that's why she escaped. He could have let her return to her family (before his family killed them), or helped her escape to a safer place than with Littlefinger! Forcible marriage is Ramsay Bolton territory. Her life was in danger from the moment that happened, either after she was raped for heirs, or now, the regicide plot.

If you want to try to understand Sansa, look at things from her perspective. He wasn't being a nice guy. She doesn't think so. "I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie." He doesn't even think so. "I want Winterfell." He said it. Robb was going to cut off Tyrion's head to free her from him. He didn't think so, either. Nor did Catelyn. She was forced to bear the "vile children" of a "faithless dwarf."

You are absolutely right in that this got way off topic I apologize for that.

Now as far as my observations go the comparison about the Disney princess reality check was more on observation in GRRM than feelings from Sansa's point of view I also did mention the B&B aspect of it as well.. but I think you missed that post.

How is it that forcibly marrying her, Tyrion had no choice, but forcibly consummating the marriage, he did have a choice? That's illogical. but that's exactly how it happened written in print and I did not write that GRRM did.

The whole purpose of the marriage was to rape her for heirs to secure Winterfell. You can't have it both ways. Either she was going to be eventually raped OR Tyrion did not, in fact, have to marry her. Things weren't just going to stay that way. Please keep this in context, this is a fantasy character, Rape is a trigger word and using it in this context belittles those who have been a REAL victim of it. As to your point. Things did not stay that way. coulda woulda shoulda, does not diminish how it actually played out. He WAS forced to Marry her but managed to lie enough to not to be forced have sex with her. He DID treat her with kindness. I do not blame her for escaping, never said that. but GRRM chose to write this in this way. It was Sansa's Plot Armor.

Ultimately I was going to compare her to Ned, in that she was the Fairy tale reality check and he was the Hero that saves the day reality check, but at this point why bother.

Sansa Apologists don't want anyone to have a real discussion about anything that could possibly cast Sansa in a negative light. She is a literary character, not a REAL child. I made the mistake earlier answering a post with a simple list one line points knowing it was off topic but trying not to elaborate. butterbumps my apologies.

I will say this, as a new poster to these forums, I have been enjoying the interaction with the fan base, people have wonderful ideas even if I do not agree. That being said, why anyone would wish to discuss Sansa on this forum, is beyond me. I have never witnessed people toss around the word rape as much as Sansa Apologist do, just to make an, out of context point, on an imaginary girl.

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He WAS forced to Marry her but managed to lie enough to not to be forced have sex with her.

He was absolutely NOT forced. Tywin told him that if he refused to marry Sansa he would marry off Tyrion instead to some "little lordling's daughter." That's not a fearful threat, so no force was involved in Tyrion accepting to marry Sansa. He did it for the prizes of Winterfell and Sansa's fair white body. (Fair white twelve-year-old body).

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