Sansa + Ned: What’s the Difference?

[Cas Stark]

It may be that readers had a more negative reaction to Sansa than GRRM intended, but she has a ton of fans, so who can say, it's clear she was intended to be viewed negatively at least in GOT. What I have never gotten is why people don't like Cat, but thats another discussion.

I agree, initially the Hound's appearance was terrifying to her because she judged everything by appearance and social standing, but not sure that is still true, I'm not even sure his appearance is why she didn't leave KL with him.

I don't really go along with the Ned/Sansa parallel since Robert is Ned's oldest friend, he has years of history with him, years of knowing him as a good man, for him to completely change his opinion within a matter of weeks is not realistic, and I don't see that it compares really to Sansa's rosy view of the Lannisters which is based completely on surface reactions and then, as things progress, ignores contrary evidence. Yes, it's true that Ned put his family in jeopardy, but that is part of his character, he does his duty, he doesn't want to be Hand but he accepts anyway, he does nothing for selfish reasons, so again, no parallel, to me.

[Annara Snow]

Are you sure it isn't speculation that Sansa doesn't fully trust the Hound because of his appearance and not because of his history of killing for Joff, drunken ranting at her and so forth? I really can't remember if this is spelled out in the text.

It's spelled out that the thing that she had most of a problem about him was his rage and violent/nihilistic rants, not his burns or his social status:

She made herself look at that face now, really look. It was only courteous, and a lady must never forget her courtesies. The scars are not the worst part, not even the way his mouth twitches. It's his eyes. She had never seen eyes so full of anger. "I...should have come to you after", she said haltingly. "To thank you for... for saving me... you were so brave..."

"Brave?" his laugh for half a snarl. "A dog doesn't need courage to chase off rats. They had me thirty to one, and not a man of them dared face me."

She hated the way he talked, always so harsh and angry. "Does it give you joy to scare people?"

"No, it gives me joy to kill people."

[He goes on about killing, and how her father was a killer too, and in a particularly asshole moment, about her father's death]

Sansa hugged herself, suddenly cold: "Why are you always so hateful? I was thanking you..."

[He goes on more about how knights are for killing, the people he's killed and how he's been killing since he was 12, about how the world is awful etc. etc.]

He is a dog, just as he says. A half-wild, mean-tempered dog that bites any hand that tries to pet him, and yet will savage any man who tries to hurt his masters.

[more nihilistic ranting]

Wordless, she fled. She was afraid of Sandor Clegane… and yet, some part of her wished that Ser Dontos had a little of the Hound’s ferocity.

(A Clash of Kings, Sansa IV)

…and finally, toward the end, she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for the Hound. He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother. Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him.

(ACOK, Sansa V)

[sansa and Cersei talking about Ser Ilyn]

“When the axes smash down those doors, you may be glad of him.”

I would be gladder if it were the Hound, Sansa thought. Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her.

(ACOK, Sansa VI)

Then something stirred behind her, and a hand reached out of the dark and grabbed her wrist.

Sansa opened her mouth to scream, but another hand clamped down over her face, smothering her. His fingers were rough and callused, and sticky with blood. “Little bird. I knew you’d come.” The voice was a drunken rasp.

Outside, a swirling lance of jade light spit at the stars, filling the room with green glare. She saw him for a moment, all black and green, the blood on his face dark as tar, his eyes glowing like a dog’s in the sudden glare. Then the light faded and he was only a hulking darkness in a stained white cloak.

“If you scream I’ll kill you. Believe that.” He took his hand from her mouth. Her breath was coming ragged. The Hound had a flagon of wine on her bedside table. He took a long pull. “Don’t you want to ask who’s winning the battle, little bird?”

“Who?” she said, too frightened to defy him.

The Hound laughed. “I only know who’s lost. Me.”

He is drunker than I’ve ever seen him. He was sleeping in my bed. What does he want here? “What have you lost?”

“All.” The burnt half of his face was a mask of dried blood. “Bloody dwarf. Should have killed him. Years ago.”

“He’s dead, they say.”

“Dead? No. Bugger that. I don’t want him dead.” He cast the empty flagon aside. “I want him burned. If the gods are good, they’ll burn him, but I won’t be here to see. I’m going.”

“Going?” She tried to wriggle free, but his grasp was iron.

“The little bird repeats whatever she hears. Going, yes.”

“Where will you go?”

“Away from here. Away from the fires. Go out the Iron Gate, I suppose. North somewhere, anywhere.”

“You won’t get out,” Sansa said. “The queen’s closed up Maegor’s, and the city gates are shut as well.”

“Not to me. I have the white cloak. And I have this.” He patted the pommel of his sword. “The man who tries to stop me is a dead man. Unless he’s on fire.” He laughed bitterly.

“Why did you come here?”

“You promised me a song, little bird. Have you forgotten?”

She didn’t know what he meant. She couldn’t sing for him now, here, with the sky aswirl with fire and men dying in their hundreds and their thousands. “I can’t,” she said. “Let me go, you’re scaring me.”

“Everything scares you. Look at me. Look at me.”

The blood masked the worst of his scars, but his eyes were white and wide and terrifying. The burnt corner of his mouth twitched and twitched again. Sansa could smell him; a stink of sweat and sour wine and stale vomit, and over it all the reek of blood, blood, blood.

(ACOK, Sansa VII)

[Mourneblade]

It may be that readers had a more negative reaction to Sansa than GRRM intended, but she has a ton of fans, so who can say, it's clear she was intended to be viewed negatively at least in GOT. What I have never gotten is why people don't like Cat, but thats another discussion.

I agree, initially the Hound's appearance was terrifying to her because she judged everything by appearance and social standing, but not sure that is still true, I'm not even sure his appearance is why she didn't leave KL with him.

I don't really go along with the Ned/Sansa parallel since Robert is Ned's oldest friend, he has years of history with him, years of knowing him as a good man, for him to completely change his opinion within a matter of weeks is not realistic, and I don't see that it compares really to Sansa's rosy view of the Lannisters which is based completely on surface reactions and then, as things progress, ignores contrary evidence. Yes, it's true that Ned put his family in jeopardy, but that is part of his character, he does his duty, he doesn't want to be Hand but he accepts anyway, he does nothing for selfish reasons, so again, no parallel, to me.

I think we are close here. but you bring up a great untouched point IMHO. ill explain.

Ned is uncertain that Robert is the Man he grew up with. Ned never forgives him for tolerating the Sack of Kingslanding, it is only Lyanna's death that somewhat repairs their friendship.

However the one trigger that finally hardens Ned's resolve to go to Kingslanding is Lysa's letter. His duty to find out who is responsible, or to prove it was the Lannisters were responsible, Jon Arryn and his death is used by Littlerfinger, on more than one occasion, to manipulate Ned. Ned's Achilles Heel is not his duty to Robert but his duty to Jon that does him in. It was the one thing that kept him in Kinglanding after he sets down the Handship of the King.

[grand old duke of stark]

It may be that readers had a more negative reaction to Sansa than GRRM intended, but she has a ton of fans, so who can say, it's clear she was intended to be viewed negatively at least in GOT. What I have never gotten is why people don't like Cat, but thats another discussion.

I agree, initially the Hound's appearance was terrifying to her because she judged everything by appearance and social standing, but not sure that is still true, I'm not even sure his appearance is why she didn't leave KL with him.

I don't really go along with the Ned/Sansa parallel since Robert is Ned's oldest friend, he has years of history with him, years of knowing him as a good man, for him to completely change his opinion within a matter of weeks is not realistic, and I don't see that it compares really to Sansa's rosy view of the Lannisters which is based completely on surface reactions and then, as things progress, ignores contrary evidence. Yes, it's true that Ned put his family in jeopardy, but that is part of his character, he does his duty, he doesn't want to be Hand but he accepts anyway, he does nothing for selfish reasons, so again, no parallel, to me.

Nor to me. BTW, I agree with Mourneblade's reply below about Ned's overarching loyalty to Jon Arryn. I'd like to add that one of the strongest bonds between human beings in fact as well as fiction, is war. Ned and Robert shared not only that, but an upbringing. I hate the 'Nedbert' jokes, but they had been very very, life-and-death close. And now Robert is his king. Ned, being a commited man of his word, keeps it. If he says he will kill Lady, he will. The litany that " no proof was needed" is bollocks. Ned is now Hand of his King--he will speak for the King, he will enforce the King's laws, etc. He of all people CANNOT go against Robert's order. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding him- or herself. Not to mention that it's possible he would have been found out. One other thing...

I don't see perceive much resemblance between Ned and Sansa, certainly nowhere near as much as the SanSans do. But Sansa is NOT a woman of her word. Oh she may be moreso now, but she's done considerable white lying (some to protect her life, which I condone) in her day. But on the Trident, in the provisional law court of King Robert, she lied. The King had asked her to tell the truth, as had Ned. She said she didn't remember. That is very very unlikely. It's immaterial that she was young, sweet, naive, in love, trying to help, whatever--she not only lied, but sabotaged the point Ned wanted to make when he asked her to speak in the first place. No, I don't see much resemblance all.

[Dragon Roast]

Nor to me. BTW, I agree with Mourneblade's reply below about Ned's overarching loyalty to Jon Arryn. I'd like to add that one of the strongest bonds between human beings in fact as well as fiction, is war. Ned and Robert shared not only that, but an upbringing. I hate the 'Nedbert' jokes, but they had been very very, life-and-death close. And now Robert is his king. Ned, being a commited man of his word, keeps it. If he says he will kill Lady, he will. The litany that " no proof was needed" is bollocks. Ned is now Hand of his King--he will speak for the King, he will enforce the King's laws, etc. He of all people CANNOT go against Robert's order. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding him- or herself. Not to mention that it's possible he would have been found out. One other thing...

I don't see perceive much resemblance between Ned and Sansa, certainly nowhere near as much as the SanSans do. But Sansa is NOT a woman of her word. Oh she may be moreso now, but she's done considerable white lying (some to protect her life, which I condone) in her day. But on the Trident, in the provisional law court of King Robert, she lied. The King had asked her to tell the truth, as had Ned. She said she didn't remember. That is very very unlikely. It's immaterial that she was young, sweet, naive, in love, trying to help, whatever--she not only lied, but sabotaged the point Ned wanted to make when he asked her to speak in the first place. No, I don't see much resemblance all.

I would agree with you on your points about Ned and Robert, but I think there are more similarities/connections between Ned and Sansa. Even the question of keeping your word is an interesting one. Sansa was 11 and asked to tell the King what she knew. She claimed that she could not remember. I find it odd to judge her honesty by the standards we ascribe to a full-grown Ned. Perhaps Ned never had a similar experience in his youth when he shaded the truth, but I somehow doubt it. I expect that when we learn the details of the Knight of the Laughing Tree and the Tourney at Harrenhall will see an echo of young Ned in young Sansa.

[Annara Snow]

I don't see perceive much resemblance between Ned and Sansa, certainly nowhere near as much as the SanSans do. But Sansa is NOT a woman of her word. Oh she may be moreso now, but she's done considerable white lying (some to protect her life, which I condone) in her day. But on the Trident, in the provisional law court of King Robert, she lied. The King had asked her to tell the truth, as had Ned. She said she didn't remember. That is very very unlikely. It's immaterial that she was young, sweet, naive, in love, trying to help, whatever--she not only lied, but sabotaged the point Ned wanted to make when he asked her to speak in the first place. No, I don't see much resemblance all.

(I'm not sure why SanSan would be brought up in a conversation about similarities between Ned and Sansa, but anyway...)

Ned has done his fair share of white lying. Or at least, avoidance of the truth. Usually to protect someone he loves, or to spare their feelings. Sansa tells LF "My father always told the truth", but he did not. In fact, LF's motto about a lie kindly meant seems to describe Ned pretty well (unlike LF, who is a major liar but does not lie out of kindness).

- He let Robert believe in his version of the truth about Lyanna.

- He was either lying or letting everyone think that Jon was his bastard son his entire life (although we never hear him outright lie on the matter). He lets Robert think that Willa is Jon's mother (although, again, we don't see him outright lie, technically speaking).

- He lied that Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion on his orders.

- He didn't tell Robert the truth about Joffrey's, Myrcella's and Tommen's true parentage, to spare his feelings.

- But at the same time, he deceived Robert when he wrote different words in Robert's will than what Robert was dictating to him, so the different wording could allow for Stannis to take the throne instead of Joffrey.

- He lied just before his death, confessing his "treason", in order to save Sansa's life.

On the other hand, I don't remember if Catelyn ever lied? Jaime was right about her being a completely "honest woman", which he gave as a reason why she couldn't even pretend to love/like Jon. She seemed to be less likely to use white lies. Although certainly not to the extent of Stannis, who is utterly incapable of lies, including the whitest ones ("My beloved brother? He didn't love me, I didn't love him.") It's impossible to be "nice" and completely honest at the same time.

[Khal BlackfyreO]

Hey Gang,

Been reading through and decided to join in. To me Ned and Sansa are very alike, she is her Father's daughter, but at the same time, I think people tend to label Ned with 'naive' and 'ingenuous' when that really only pertains to Sansa. (And rightly so, as she is, in AGoT, only an 11 year old girl, who has grown up on fairy tales).

People always point to Ned going to Cersei as being naive, but I think it was anything but. At the point Ned goes to her, Robert is not dead, nor is there any reason to believe he will be. Ned is speaking from a position of power, knowing that when Robert has this information, nothing Cersei can say or do will ever be brought against Ned (as happened with Lady). In fact, I would argue, it is ONLY his in depth knowledge of Roberts character that prompts him to tell Cersei anything at all. He expects Robert to fly in to a rage and kill all Lannisters on sight basically. And he can´t stomach the thought of it. So he puts aside his own safety to warn her. If Robert dies earlier, he doesn´t tell her, if Robert dies later, she would of had to have run, because Robert would have the whole kindgom after her.

Then Robert does die...and Ned gets textual evidence of succession passing to him temporarily, and because he knows a piece of paper isn´t enough, he gets the backing of Littlefinger and the City Watch.

So Ned's actions, are not that naive...he knows the danger of what he is doing, he knows the quality of the people he is dealing with, but he does it anyway, because his moral compass won´t let him do anything else. And his actions are not stupid, because it really takes the perfect storm of Robert dying, Cersei not running, Sansa telling, and Littlefinger going double agent to bring him down. If one of these things doesn't happen we are reading a very different book.

Sansa's actions, (and we are only speaking about AGoT here) are naive, which is really all we can expect of her. She doesn´t know what Cersei is, because Cersei never shows her that side, she is glossing over Joff because it is the only thing she can do (much like Ned does with Robert, though it is probable that Ned's faith in Robert was based in a different Robert in the past), and she is trying to fix what she sees as a rift between two families she now owes allegiance to without knowing all the facts. Honestly, I can´t see why anyone hates Sansa, she does what a lot of 11 year olds would do, but the difference is, we know the true colors of the people she decides to trust and she doesn´t. Every poor decision she makes was just kind of a d'oh moment, but brought into so much more focus because of the devastating consequences for her and her family.

In the end these characters are what their characters arcs are meant to be for the other books, Ned has to be the hero now (in AGoT) because he won´t last, he has no time to arc, and we must remember him as the head of this astounding family that we will come to love,so we understand why the North will keep fighting for him and his heirs long after he is dead.

Sansa is young, and will survive for the time being, she has time to grow and become something more. Less naive, but no less honest, or without honor. Though we will have to see what effect Petyr will have on her growth as well...that is for another thread...

Edited for grammatical error

[Kanye Westeros]

...snip

I think they are both naive. Clearly Ned ran into some terrible luck with Robert dying at that moment, but there were plenty of other moments where he trusted people where he shouldn't have and acted in ways that were honorable, but against his self interest. Trusting Baelish and the city watch to watch his back, not getting on board with Renley's plan, trusting that a piece of paper(the will) would bestow upon him the power of king, etc.

I'm generally with Mourneblade on Sansa purposefully being portrayed the way she was in being idealistic, superficial, etc. Maybe she came across slightly more petulant than intended, but in general I thought it was an intended set up to deconstruct the typical fantasy dreamworld and provide a foundation for Sansa's future growth. I feel like this makes far more sense narratively, and also adds a lot of realism as I think she is acting as I think many preteens would in that situation. You can twist her wanting to be a princess as her wanting to fulfill what she views as her duty, but at the forefront of Sansa's motivations to me was she just really liked the idea of being a princess and the things that went along with it from the superficial standpoint of a young, naive person, that is fairly far removed from KL and its politics.

Sansa's reactions to things didn't feel so much as her just selflessly fulfilling a duty, but more somebody that is genuinely looking forward to fulfilling a dream they've always had. Wish fulfillment seemed to be what drove her. Ned didn't really want his position or any of the headaches that went along with it, but he did it because he genuinely felt he was helping the realm. So with Ned it is far more apparent it was about the duty first and foremost because he was doing it despite preferring not to. With Sansa, you can't rule out that duty was apart of it, but it's certainly not as clear because she certainly seemed really excited at the idea of being a princess and that aspect is harder to discern.

Either way I prefer it the way I initially interpreted it because Sansa's growth toward the end of AGOT where you see the slow transition to her realizing all her preconceived notions of what being the princess entails slowly dissipate is one of the most natural evolutions in the series.

[mambru]

I don't see perceive much resemblance between Ned and Sansa, certainly nowhere near as much as the SanSans do. But Sansa is NOT a woman of her word. ... But on the Trident, in the provisional law court of King Robert, she lied.

Indeed, in the Trident trial, Sansa was not a woman of her word. She was also not a woman at all. She was eleven, and put in a hideously tight spot. Yes, she chose to lie, in such a way so as neither incriminate her sister or the prince her father had betrothed her to (and continued the betrothal to after the trial, even though Ned knew the truth about Joff). Ned was certainly not born a baby with the honor and integrity he had as an adult. He had to learn it by upbringing as well as nature. If Sansa had done wrong by lying, it was his duty to sternly tell her so and tell her what she should have done instead. It also would have been instructive for her to be told that Ned disagreed with killing Lady but had to do it anyway because of the danger to his family in refusing. Without telling any of the secrets he was hiding, he could have explained to her how dangerous the royals were, and how she ought to act with them and think of them.

But he did none of those things. Possibly he shrank from giving her a frank talk because it would have to include the fact that he was going to continue her betrothal to that dangerous family. But by silently obeying the Queen's order and not talking to her about it or about his doubts about Cersei and Joffrey afterwards, and making no change in her betrothal, he gives the impression that he CONDONES what Cersei and Joffrey have done, and AGREES that it was no big deal, certainly nothing to break up a betrothal with. Ned neglected his duty to instruct his daughter as well as to forewarn her of danger, and his failure came back to bite him in the ass.

[WierWood Wolf]

I won't try to defend Ned's decisions as Butterbumps has laid them out here, but try to understand them with regard to Robert's influence over them.

Ned was never given the chance to decline Robert's offer to be hand, he sends a raven saying Jon Arryn is dead and he's coming to Winterfell..

Ned is Robert's friend, but more importantly is his Warden of the North. He is bound to obey his king. I think this has bering on much of Ned's reasoning WRT his family.

Ned tells Catelyn he doesn't want the job and rightly, Cat tells him he dare not refuse as Robert would question his loyalties. Ned can't back out and Robert's trip to Winterfell is already under way.

This fact should be #1 in the OP. It is an important piece in Ned's decision making process.

Robert's retinue arrives in WF. Maester Luwin discovers the wooden box with a letter from Lysa, inside a secret compartment.(off topic this box I believe was delivered by Meryn Trant, working for LF,one of two KG present at WF, besides Jaime.)

Robert tells Ned their two houses will be joined as they should have been with Robert and Lyanna years ago. He doesn't ask if Ned thinks it's a good idea, he tells him.

Ned's fight with Robert WRT killing Dany happens in private away from prying eyes.

WRT Arya and Joff's fight Ned's reluctance to press matters has IMO much to do with Sansa's reluctance to testify. He has no idea Cersci will demand the offending wolf be killed. By then it's too late and Robert's lack of honor and fortitude is on full display. Some posters think this is the point where Ned should call off the betrothal but I'm not sure if he wouldn't look a fool for doing it over what the King' s court considers a pet. To Ned's shame, I don't think he really understands the significance of the Direwolves at this time.

The point about proof of the Killing of Lady not being required, IMO isn't valid. Robert commands it done, Ned argues but Robert turns his back. Ned's honor at work again. If its found out he disregards the Kings command, nothing good would come of it.

Ned learns of the attempt on Bran's life, he's convinced the Lannisters are trying to kill his children, he doesn't send his daughters home.

Sorry Butterbumps but I find this a bit of a stretch.even if Ned feels this way, how is HE going to explain to Robert why he is sending his girls home without an outright accusation? He has no proof ( Cat burned Lysa' s letter and the letter is in code that only Cat can read.)

Ned wouldn't send the girls without going himself so he will keep them close.

Ned argues with Robert about dragonspawn and quits Hand, Jaime attacks Ned, Robert brushes it off and goes hunting. This is where Ned screws up by not sending his daughters home.

Everything that happens after the attack by Jaime and Robert going hunting should have been time spent securing his daughter's safety.

Ned confronting Cersci before putting his girls on a boat home is so incomprehensible, he is injured, he can't even protect himself much less Sansa and Arya.. inexcusable.

Though I've seen Sansa's actions defended, and I don't agree with many of those posters. I won't beat a dead horse. Sansa is eleven and lives in that special place in her mind that only preteens can understand.

[Dragon Roast]

Everything that happens after the attack by Jaime and Robert going hunting should have been time spent securing his daughter's safety.

Ned confronting Cersci before putting his girls on a boat home is so incomprehensible, he is injured, he can't even protect himself much less Sansa and Arya.. inexcusable.

Though I've seen Sansa's actions defended, and I don't agree with many of those posters. I won't beat a dead horse. Sansa is eleven and lives in that special place in her mind that only preteens can understand.

I think this sums up Ned and Sansa pretty well, but the way the characters are introduce and written are crafted to wrap Ned in heroic honor even as his actions are negligent, reckless and dangerous for his family, while Sansa is set up to be the one responsible for the impact of Ned's mistakes on House Stark. It is a clever hat trick.

[Mladen]

snip

I think a lot of these facts need a bit of clarification or adjustment...

Robert tells Ned their two houses will be joined as they should have been with Robert and Lyanna years ago. He doesn't ask if Ned thinks it's a good idea, he tells him.

Robert does tell him for the engagements, but at the end, it is Ned's decision, not Robert's. Ned is the one who decides whether Sansa will get marry for someone or not. After all, if he could have broken off the engagements at the end of AGoT, I don't see the logic behind saying "he had to accept it". No, he didn't have.

WRT Arya and Joff's fight Ned's reluctance to press matters has IMO much to do with Sansa's reluctance to testify. He has no idea Cersci will demand the offending wolf be killed. By then it's too late and Robert's lack of honor and fortitude is on full display. Some posters think this is the point where Ned should call off the betrothal but I'm not sure if he wouldn't look a fool for doing it over what the King' s court considers a pet. To Ned's shame, I don't think he really understands the significance of the Direwolves at this time.

The reason why Ned should have called the betrothal is not in dead pet, but in the fact that he was said what Joffrey did. Sansa told him, Arya did it too, the boy then lied in front of him. If Sansa was naive and didn't see Joffrey's troublesome behavior, what's Ned's excuse? How do you continue with charade, allowing your daughter's infatuation to grow uncontrollably, when you are perfectly aware (even from the testimony of his own father) that your future son-in-law is truly problematic? Simply, Ned put his duty as his priority, not realizing what he is doing.

Ned learns of the attempt on Bran's life, he's convinced the Lannisters are trying to kill his children, he doesn't send his daughters home.

Sorry Butterbumps but I find this a bit of a stretch.even if Ned feels this way, how is HE going to explain to Robert why he is sending his girls home without an outright accusation?

Does he truly needed an explanation when he booked that ship to take them to Winterfell? No, he didn't. So, again, you are arguing against something Ned clearly did.

Though I've seen Sansa's actions defended, and I don't agree with many of those posters. I won't beat a dead horse. Sansa is eleven and lives in that special place in her mind that only preteens can understand.

And her father is the same. And one can even argue the worse. Sansa is 11 year-old girl living in fairy tales. Now, we all can understand that. She was a privileged preteen who knew nothing about the world and its horrors. Ned, on the other hand, lives in this perfect bublle of honorable world where everyone keeps their words and are as equally honorable as he is. He despises the Game, and he refuses to play which leads to catastrophic consequences for his family. He questions the motifs of people, but soon after, he jumps ahead believing their every word. And lastly, he puts honor in front of everything else, his life, his daughters... He is living by the code he perfectly well knows is flawed. So, which one is worse, a preteen girl believing in fairy tales or a grown-up man who lives a life as it is a fairy tale? I think we all know the answer to that question.

[Sansa_Stark]

"When you're old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me."

[Khal BlackfyreO]

I think they are both naive. Clearly Ned ran into some terrible luck with Robert dying at that moment, but there were plenty of other moments where he trusted people where he shouldn't have and acted in ways that were honorable, but against his self interest. Trusting Baelish and the city watch to watch his back, not getting on board with Renley's plan, trusting that a piece of paper(the will) would bestow upon him the power of king, etc.

I'm generally with Mourneblade on Sansa purposefully being portrayed the way she was in being idealistic, superficial, etc. Maybe she came across slightly more petulant than intended, but in general I thought it was an intended set up to deconstruct the typical fantasy dreamworld and provide a foundation for Sansa's future growth. I feel like this makes far more sense narratively, and also adds a lot of realism as I think she is acting as I think many preteens would in that situation. You can twist her wanting to be a princess as her wanting to fulfill what she views as her duty, but at the forefront of Sansa's motivations to me was she just really liked the idea of being a princess and the things that went along with it from the superficial standpoint of a young, naive person, that is fairly far removed from KL and its politics.

Sansa's reactions to things didn't feel so much as her just selflessly fulfilling a duty, but more somebody that is genuinely looking forward to fulfilling a dream they've always had. Wish fulfillment seemed to be what drove her. Ned didn't really want his position or any of the headaches that went along with it, but he did it because he genuinely felt he was helping the realm. So with Ned it is far more apparent it was about the duty first and foremost because he was doing it despite preferring not to. With Sansa, you can't rule out that duty was apart of it, but it's certainly not as clear because she certainly seemed really excited at the idea of being a princess and that aspect is harder to discern.

Either way I prefer it the way I initially interpreted it because Sansa's growth toward the end of AGOT where you see the slow transition to her realizing all her preconceived notions of what being the princess entails slowly dissipate is one of the most natural evolutions in the series.

Well...we can go back and forth about it, but it is essentially just a matter of POV. I don´t see Ned making decisions based upon the fact that he thinks LF is a 'good, trustworthy' guy, or that Cersei is a ray of sunshine. He knows who and what he is dealing with, but...again, by bad luck, he is forced into situations where he can either fight with the cards (and alliances) he is dealt, or he can run. Running would not 'serve the kingdom' and install a rightful king, so Ned can´t contemplate that either. We know what he chooses, and I just think it is his ironclad moral compass that guides his decisions judged to be 'poor', not a blind faith in the good of the people around him. He knows he is in a snake pit, but would rather go down with his integrity intact than without.

Essentially the point of this is that he is more sympathetic. This is why he is a martyr, it is, of course, also why he is dead. He tries to save his enemies children, when all common sense, (and Renly), tells him to imprison them. This is why we stand with him, and yet find much wrong with Sansa. Her actions are not wrong or right, based on her point of view. She stares the serpents in the face and believes when they smile at her. But we fault her because we know what is really going on and can´t understand how she can´t see it.

As far as the threat to his family, I think I already covered that, when he 'threatens' (at least in her perception) Cersei, he is speaking from a place of power. And when things start to fall apart he does try to get them out, but Sansa unfortunately seals her own fate with her actions. Which of course is borrowed from a dozen other tales, where the moral is, 'be careful what you wish for.' This is usually reserved for horror, and for villainous characters, but in a 'real world' setting, its the kind of thing that teaches people to be more mature and thoughtful about what they want.

[WierWood Wolf]

I think a lot of these facts need a bit of clarification or adjustment...

Robert does tell him for the engagements, but at the end, it is Ned's decision, not Robert's. Ned is the one who decides whether Sansa will get marry for someone or not. After all, if he could have broken off the engagements at the end of AGoT, I don't see the logic behind saying "he had to accept it". No, he didn't have.

The reason why Ned should have called the betrothal is not in dead pet, but in the fact that he was said what Joffrey did. Sansa told him, Arya did it too, the boy then lied in front of him. If Sansa was naive and didn't see Joffrey's troublesome behavior, what's Ned's excuse? How do you continue with charade, allowing your daughter's infatuation to grow uncontrollably, when you are perfectly aware (even from the testimony of his own father) that your future son-in-law is truly problematic? Simply, Ned put his duty as his priority, not realizing what he is doing.

Does he truly needed an explanation when he booked that ship to take them to Winterfell? No, he didn't. So, again, you are arguing against something Ned clearly did.

And her father is the same. And one can even argue the worse. Sansa is 11 year-old girl living in fairy tales. Now, we all can understand that. She was a privileged preteen who knew nothing about the world and its horrors. Ned, on the other hand, lives in this perfect bublle of honorable world where everyone keeps their words and are as equally honorable as he is. He despises the Game, and he refuses to play which leads to catastrophic consequences for his family. He questions the motifs of people, but soon after, he jumps ahead believing their every word. And lastly, he puts honor in front of everything else, his life, his daughters... He is living by the code he perfectly well knows is flawed. So, which one is worse, a preteen girl believing in fairy tales or a grown-up man who lives a life as it is a fairy tale? I think we all know the answer to that question.

Just curious as to your 1st point. If Ned denied Robert's offer of the Hand of the King and the betrothal, would it be as Catelyn says, Robert will question Ned's and thereby the Norths loyalty?

As to your second point are you implying Ned should have called Crown Prince and heir apparent Joffry a lier and taken his daughter home?

Again your third point, Joffry is lying, Sansa won't testify that he's lying, but Ned should do what ?put his girls on a boat? Ned would again need to call Joff a lier. To which Robert would reply not even your other daughter would say he is. I don't understand what you expect Ned to do under those circumstances. If he believes as Buterbumps says that the Lannisters are trying to kill them, he does what? Quit as Hand and go home?

Look at Catelyn 1 in GoT, Ned doesn't want the job, Catelyn tells him he has no choice but to take the job or Robert will begin to question Ned's loyalty.

If you are trying to equate Ned's situation to Sansa poor choices, I'm not buying. You can chose to say Ned made just as many poor,choices as Sansa, but the circumstances are different. Ned's only recourse is to not take the job in the 1st place. After that he is at the mercy of a poor king and the minions who would do anything to further their own agendas. Sansa is so starstruck she is willing to put herself and her dreams ahead of family. That is something Ned would never intentionally do.

[Dragon Roast]

Sansa is so starstruck she is willing to put herself and her dreams ahead of family. That is something Ned would never intentionally do.

I think this is the conclusion that the introduction bias was crafted and shaped to support. I don't think it stands up to re-reads.

Both Sansa and Ned made choices based on their notions of duty and their biases. I'm not sure there are that many 11-year old kids who put their family ahead of their dreams--especially when their family is sending them strong signals to embrace those dreams. Ned, OTOH intentionally put his family at risk when he went to Cersei before he had Sansa and Arya in a safe place. As soon as Cat took Tyrion, Jamie attacked Ned and killed his men,and the Lannnisters were burning the Riverlands, Ned had to know that KL was not safe for his daughters. Instead of getting them to safety, he intentionally put them at greater risk. And yet, the introduction bias of these character in AGOT is so strong that the child is condemned and the grown man is celebrated for his honor. It is a nice switcheroo.

[mambru]

If you are trying to equate Ned's situation to Sansa poor choices, I'm not buying. You can chose to say Ned made just as many poor,choices as Sansa, but the circumstances are different. Ned's only recourse is to not take the job in the 1st place. After that he is at the mercy of a poor king and the minions who would do anything to further their own agendas. Sansa is so starstruck she is willing to put herself and her dreams ahead of family. That is something Ned would never intentionally do.

Do you think Sansa knew that going to the Queen would put her family in danger, and did it anyway intentionally? I do not, which has a lot to do with Ned deliberately going along with the Royal family's misdeeds (by killing Lady, by keeping the betrothal) and keeping Sansa completely in the dark about how wrong the Royal family was and how much danger the Starks were in.

NED, on the other hand, knew DAMN WELL there was danger for him and his family in going to KL. He is going to take the position of King's Hand AND investigate the murder of the last King's Hand. Why in the world should he think he'd be immune to danger - let alone his innocent, oblivious children that he's dragging along with him?

And IMO, his refusal to break the betrothal after Joffrey showed his true colors at the Trident has NOTHING to do with fear of Robert. After all, when Robert overrode Ned's advice and ordered the assassination of Danaerys, Ned was not afraid to resign as King's Hand AND call the King a child-murderer and a coward because Ned felt it would be dishonorable for him to agree with such a crime - even though Robert could in theory have Ned killed for such an insult. If Ned could do such a daring thing for honor, then IMO his refusing to break the betrothal wasn't due to fear of Robert. It was also due to honor - his refusal to break his word of honor about the betrothal to Robert, about accepting the position of hand of the king, and his refusal to give up his honorable mission to find out who killed Jon Arryn for such a small consideration as the miserable future marriage of his daughter.

And later, when he figured out the Twincest and the danger from Cersei was clear, he systematically rejected plans to deal with the danger - not because they weren't practical, but because they were dishonorable. Should he flee KL with both his children? No, that would be dishonorable abandonment of his duty to Robert and the memory of Jon Arryn. Should he accept the help of Renly in taking over the Red Keep and the Royal Family after Robert's death? No, that would be dishonorably taking the side of a man who is not the rightful heir. Should he take Cersei by surprise and take her children hostage? No, it would be dishonorable to frighten little children by dragging them from their beds. He bravely refuses to take the safer path because of honor - and refuses to recognize that HIS CHILDREN are running that danger right along with him because of his honor. He threatens Cersei with exposure of her crimes that would get her and her children killed - and then lets his own daughter Sansa run around the palace unaccompanied, when Cersei could take her hostage (and did). What's Ned's excuse for that? He's kept a child hostage himself - he KNOWS it's common.

Hell, even when Ned was arrested and languishing in a dungeon, he refused to publically acknowledge Joffrey as the king because that would be DISHONORABLE. It never occurs to him EVEN THEN that Sansa could pay with her life for Ned's honor - Varys has to spell it out for him. IMO, that's denial at its very finest.

I think that Ned's refusal to admit that he could not deal with the viper's nest at King's Landing WITHOUT sacrificing some of his honor was as deluded in its way as Sansa's belief in a happy-ever-after with her Prince Charming. But at least Sansa had some justification for her belief in a fairy tale happy-ever-after - she's eleven. Ned's a freakin' adult and responsible for two children - he has far less excuse for his stubborn belief that a happy-ever-after ending was possible while preserving his precious HONOR intact. And his entire family paid for his stubbornness and willful naivete.

[WierWood Wolf]

Do you think Sansa knew that going to the Queen would put her family in danger, and did it anyway intentionally? I do not, which has a lot to do with Ned deliberately going along with the Royal family's misdeeds (by killing Lady, by keeping the betrothal) and keeping Sansa completely in the dark about how wrong the Royal family was and how much danger the Starks were in.

NED, on the other hand, knew DAMN WELL there was danger for him and his family in going to KL. He is going to take the position of King's Hand AND investigate the murder of the last King's Hand. Why in the world should he think he'd be immune to danger - let alone his innocent, oblivious children that he's dragging along with him?

And IMO, his refusal to break the betrothal after Joffrey showed his true colors at the Trident has NOTHING to do with fear of Robert. After all, when Robert overrode Ned's advice and ordered the assassination of Danaerys, Ned was not afraid to resign as King's Hand AND call the King a child-murderer and a coward because Ned felt it would be dishonorable for him to agree with such a crime - even though Robert could in theory have Ned killed for such an insult. If Ned could do such a daring thing for honor, then IMO his refusing to break the betrothal wasn't due to fear of Robert. It was also due to honor - his refusal to break his word of honor about the betrothal to Robert, about accepting the position of hand of the king, and his refusal to give up his honorable mission to find out who killed Jon Arryn for such a small consideration as the miserable future marriage of his daughter.

And later, when he figured out the Twincest and the danger from Cersei was clear, he systematically rejected plans to deal with the danger - not because they weren't practical, but because they were dishonorable. Should he flee KL with both his children? No, that would be dishonorable abandonment of his duty to Robert and the memory of Jon Arryn. Should he accept the help of Renly in taking over the Red Keep and the Royal Family after Robert's death? No, that would be dishonorably taking the side of a man who is not the rightful heir. Should he take Cersei by surprise and take her children hostage? No, it would be dishonorable to frighten little children by dragging them from their beds. He bravely refuses to take the safer path because of honor - and refuses to recognize that HIS CHILDREN are running that danger right along with him because of his honor. He threatens Cersei with exposure of her crimes that would get her and her children killed - and then lets his own daughter Sansa run around the palace unaccompanied, when Cersei could take her hostage (and did). What's Ned's excuse for that? He's kept a child hostage himself - he KNOWS it's common.

Hell, even when Ned was arrested and languishing in a dungeon, he refused to publically acknowledge Joffrey as the king because that would be DISHONORABLE. It never occurs to him EVEN THEN that Sansa could pay with her life for Ned's honor - Varys has to spell it out for him. IMO, that's denial at its very finest.

I think that Ned's refusal to admit that he could not deal with the viper's nest at King's Landing WITHOUT sacrificing some of his honor was as deluded in its way as Sansa's belief in a happy-ever-after with her Prince Charming. But at least Sansa had some justification for her belief in a fairy tale happy-ever-after - she's eleven. Ned's a freakin' adult and responsible for two children - he has far less excuse for his stubborn belief that a happy-ever-after ending was possible while preserving his precious HONOR intact. And his entire family paid for his stubbornness and willful naivete.

First of all I never said Sansa willfully went to Cersci in order to screw over her family. If you are willing to read that into my post why even reply.

PS if you take the time to read my first post I say everything Ned does after Jaime attacks him is unforgivable. The events of the Trident is only a glimpse of Joff's character and look at how far gone Robert's reign is. You want to throw every incident as one event, fine by me. Your opinion has value.

[Sansa_Stark]

"When you're old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me."

Why do people ignore this quote?

It shows that Ned was concerned about Joff's nature.

But hey, let's try to make Ned look worse than he actually is to defend Sansa right?

Also he did not blindly believe in Robert either.

[butterbumps!]

Why do people ignore this quote?

It shows that Ned was concerned about Joff's nature.

But hey, let's try to make Ned look worse than he actually is to defend Sansa right?

Also he did not blindly believe in Robert either.

Yes, he says this a few paragraphs before he puts it together that Joffrey's not a Stag.

The point, though, is that Ned should have pieced it together months earlier; Jof's nature was revealed at the Trident. It's not particularly like Ned had new intel on Jof's malfeasance. He knew Jof was bad news before they even arrived in KL. The criticism here is more that Ned came to the conclusion to break off the marriage far too late in the game despite knowing the reasons he gave here (Jof's nature) months ago, before they were all in danger. How much of Ned's attention to Jof's nature here is truly inspired by Jof's nature, versus how much does it pertain to the fact Ned was attacked by Jaime, Robert went hunting, and this is the way he tries selling the broken arrangement to Sansa?