Sansa + Ned: What’s the Difference?

[Raving Stark the Mad]

No, I mean, he is awful in GoT as well: he breaks Marillion's fingers for a start, mocks Marsha Heddles corpse and so on.

Next you'll be telling me what a jerk he was for slapping Joffrey and having Pycelle thrown in a black cell.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

Next you'll be telling me what a jerk he was for slapping Joffrey and having Pycelle thrown in a black cell.

She listed two really low moves of him. Masha Heddle was completely innocent and all Marillion did to him was to write a song mocking him. Not deserving of having his fingers broken.

[Winter's Knight]

She listed two really low moves of him. Masha Heddle was completely innocent and all Marillion did to him was to write a song mocking him. Not deserving of having his fingers broken.

What's more, Marillion is (was) a bard-his fingers and his voice are what he lives on.

[mambru]

And Ned's honor and character would not allow him to flee.

Thing is, Ned's honor and character are not things that physically restrain him from fleeing. He CHOOSES to obey their dictates, and he is therefore responsible for his choice. And I actually disagree that it's impossible for someone to be selfish when they're fulfilling what they see as their honorable duty. When you're doing it at someone's expense that you're responsible for? Hell yes, it can be selfish. "My kids are in danger through my crusade to punish Jon Arryn's murderer! But if I abandon my honorable duty to Arryn and Robert, I'll feel ever so ashamed and disappointed in myself!" Tough. If your kids are in danger, run away home with them and DEAL with the guilt. Your helpless children should ALWAYS be your priority - even an animal knows that, and I see no special virtue in replacing them with someone else in your priorities out of 'honor.'

He knew that he was putting his life on the line and he was okay with that. None of that screams naivety.

Sorry, he knew he was "putting his life on the line" ever since he left Winterfell to replace the murdered Hand of the King, KNOWING that the same thing that happened to Jon Arryn could happen to him. He was okay with that, yes, but he took his children with him, and he was okay with the fact that whatever danger HE ran, THEY would run too, like a dimwitted homicide detective investigating a murder on Take-Your-Kids-To-Work-Day. Every discovery he made underlined the danger further to the kids... but HONOR.

Also, many here have spoke of Sansa's actions as selfish because they're purely to benefit herself. But if you think about it, how beneficial for SANSA is it to marry a sadistic psychopath who is as likely to turn on HER as on anyone else? Sansa's actions are not working toward a clear-cut benefit for herself - she's willfully shutting her eyes to the potential harm in an act of denial.

And IMO, so is Ned, all along. HIs ultimate act of denial is in the dungeon with Varys. He knows Sansa is in the power of the Lannisters, but he STILL thinks he can keep his honor without it rebounding on her and harming her. In his own way, he's as infatuated with his honor as Sansa is with Joffrey, and as blinded and deluded by his infatuation as she is. Sansa is a hostage of the Lannisters, but Ned proudly proclaims his love for his honor and his willingness to die for it. He is so much in denial that even though he's kept a child hostage himself, Varys has to EXPLAIN what happens to child hostages when their parents don't please the hostage takers. It is to Ned's credit that when finally FORCED to choose between his honor and his child, he chose his child. It's not so much to his credit, though, that his nose had to be rubbed in that choice in a dungeon before he would agree that it was a choice he HAD to make.

And I don't think he was doing anything bad all along. It was denial on Ned's part, AND on Sansa's. Like father, like daughter.

It only after the trial that he embraces the demon monkey bitter hate filled creature that he looks like.

I think the worst thing Tyrion did early in the series is pity HIMSELF exclusively over the Tysha affair. Even fifteen years after the fact, his thoughts are mainly full of anger at her for deceiving him - when as an adult, he should have been aware of the fact that even if she were guilty of EVERYTHING he thought she was, her only crime was being a fourteen year old girl who sold her virginity out of poverty and then didn't own up when he proposed. She didn't deserve what happened to her, and it probably left her in dire straits - alone, injured, probably pregnant, and with money enticing thieves. Tyrion NEVER made the least enquiry as to what had happened to her, even to offer pitying charity, until he found out she WASN'T "guilty." Basically, until then, he'd assumed she'd pretty much gotten what she deserved.

Lo, a man we've considered sympathetic suddenly snaps into focus as something very much less - but the clues were there the whole time. Good trick, GRRM.

[Mourneblade]

Thing is, Ned's honor and character are not things that physically restrain him from fleeing. He CHOOSES to obey their dictates, and he is therefore responsible for his choice. And I actually disagree that it's impossible for someone to be selfish when they're fulfilling what they see as their honorable duty. When you're doing it at someone's expense that you're responsible for? Hell yes, it can be selfish. "My kids are in danger through my crusade to punish Jon Arryn's murderer! But if I abandon my honorable duty to Arryn and Robert, I'll feel ever so ashamed and disappointed in myself!" Tough. If your kids are in danger, run away home with them and DEAL with the guilt. Your helpless children should ALWAYS be your priority - even an animal knows that, and I see no special virtue in replacing them with someone else in your priorities out of 'honor.'

Sorry, he knew he was "putting his life on the line" ever since he left Winterfell to replace the murdered Hand of the King, KNOWING that the same thing that happened to Jon Arryn could happen to him. He was okay with that, yes, but he took his children with him, and he was okay with the fact that whatever danger HE ran, THEY would run too, like a dimwitted homicide detective investigating a murder on Take-Your-Kids-To-Work-Day. Every discovery he made underlined the danger further to the kids... but HONOR.

Also, many here have spoke of Sansa's actions as selfish because they're purely to benefit herself. But if you think about it, how beneficial for SANSA is it to marry a sadistic psychopath who is as likely to turn on HER as on anyone else? Sansa's actions are not working toward a clear-cut benefit for herself - she's willfully shutting her eyes to the potential harm in an act of denial.

And IMO, so is Ned, all along. HIs ultimate act of denial is in the dungeon with Varys. He knows Sansa is in the power of the Lannisters, but he STILL thinks he can keep his honor without it rebounding on her and harming her. In his own way, he's as infatuated with his honor as Sansa is with Joffrey, and as blinded and deluded by his infatuation as she is. Sansa is a hostage of the Lannisters, but Ned proudly proclaims his love for his honor and his willingness to die for it. He is so much in denial that even though he's kept a child hostage himself, Varys has to EXPLAIN what happens to child hostages when their parents don't please the hostage takers. It is to Ned's credit that when finally FORCED to choose between his honor and his child, he chose his child. It's not so much to his credit, though, that his nose had to be rubbed in that choice in a dungeon before he would agree that it was a choice he HAD to make.

And I don't think he was doing anything bad all along. It was denial on Ned's part, AND on Sansa's. Like father, like daughter.

I think the worst thing Tyrion did early in the series is pity HIMSELF exclusively over the Tysha affair. Even fifteen years after the fact, his thoughts are mainly full of anger at her for deceiving him - when as an adult, he should have been aware of the fact that even if she were guilty of EVERYTHING he thought she was, her only crime was being a fourteen year old girl who sold her virginity out of poverty and then didn't own up when he proposed. She didn't deserve what happened to her, and it probably left her in dire straits - alone, injured, probably pregnant, and with money enticing thieves. Tyrion NEVER made the least enquiry as to what had happened to her, even to offer pitying charity, until he found out she WASN'T "guilty." Basically, until then, he'd assumed she'd pretty much gotten what she deserved.

Lo, a man we've considered sympathetic suddenly snaps into focus as something very much less - but the clues were there the whole time. Good trick, GRRM.

Maybe you might want to detach yourself a bit from this. You are drawing conclusions that are just not there. I just do not understand where all this venom is coming from. You paint these characters in the same light as a Stark fan might paint Walder Frey.

If that's how you feel, that's how you feel. But it seem to me there is something deeper at work here.

[Lord Voldemort's Toes]

No, I mean, he is awful in GoT as well: he breaks Marillion's fingers for a start, mocks Marsha Heddles corpse and so on.

I think we need to remember that with only a very few exceptions, most characters really don't give too much of a shit about those of lesser birth distinction. Even Sansa doesn't appear to give a lot of thought to the plights of Jeyne Poole or Lollys. The former she inwardly tsked at for crying after her dad died, and the latter she never even thought about after the rape, even though they were always at court.

[Khal BlackfyreO]

I think the worst thing Tyrion did early in the series is pity HIMSELF exclusively over the Tysha affair. Even fifteen years after the fact, his thoughts are mainly full of anger at her for deceiving him - when as an adult, he should have been aware of the fact that even if she were guilty of EVERYTHING he thought she was, her only crime was being a fourteen year old girl who sold her virginity out of poverty and then didn't own up when he proposed. She didn't deserve what happened to her, and it probably left her in dire straits - alone, injured, probably pregnant, and with money enticing thieves. Tyrion NEVER made the least enquiry as to what had happened to her, even to offer pitying charity, until he found out she WASN'T "guilty." Basically, until then, he'd assumed she'd pretty much gotten what she deserved.

Lo, a man we've considered sympathetic suddenly snaps into focus as something very much less - but the clues were there the whole time. Good trick, GRRM.

I think you are undervaluing both Tyrion's youth when this happens and Tywin´s absolutely mind-f&%king of him. Tyrion has every right to pity himself, and disown any allegiance to Tysha; if the story that Tywin and Jaimie tell him, is the truth. What happens to her is horrible and absolute overkill, very much Tywin´s style, but I don´t think Tyrion's state of mind regarding what he sees as a 'betrayal' combined with Tywin's control over everything Tyrion does, precludes Tyrion, 'looking after' Tysha. Any further interest from Tyrion into Tysha's affairs or well-being would probably result in additional 'sharp lessons' from Tywin. So i think you can throw that idea out the window.

[butterbumps!]

But what if the "root of the character bias" is not merely a presentation issue (i.e., because of the narrative structure we're "supposed" to root for Ned despite his similar shortcomings and hate Sansa despite her strengths and/or seeming lack of culpability due to being a child/misunderstood/just doing her duty) but is based on a real (and ethically significant) distinction between Ned and Sansa's motivations?

First, I'd argue that the fact so many readers see their motivations as being so significantly dissimilar is a presentation issue. They are both operating out of some combination of duty and idealism. Sansa's "love" of Jof and the fact that she has duty to both her family and his seems to be trivialized, part of which stems from the way it's presented in the text (i.e. we have insight into his character that Sansa doesn't, and women's duty is glossed over, though very much present).

Even if you don't see the motivations as essentially the same faith in idealism and duty, the fact is that neither sought to harm or undermine their family. The fact that they did not intend to hurt their family means that neither deserves condemnation as "betrayers" or any such thing. Whether you unintentionally undermine your organization out of a desire for gain or a selfless reason, if there was no intention to betray, then it seems ridiculous to accuse someone of betrayal. Some motivations might turn you off more than others (though I'd still argue both are fueled by essentially similar principles), but if there was no intent to betray, then however you feel about the motivation shouldn't impact your assessment of the action as "betrayal."

I do happen to find Sansa's going to Cersei and continued devotion to Joffrey vexing. It's hard to appreciate in a lot of ways, because I don't come from a culture of arranged marriage, I haven't experienced the imposed expectations of "women's duty" that are infused in her thoughts, and I was already twice Sansa's age when I first read aGoT, so it took effort to reflect back on how I might have operated in her shoes.

But having read the responses here, it appears that the text between these incidents is what's fueling reader perception more than the incidents themselves, which was my hypothesis--it is an issue of presentation it seems. It seems that in addition to Sansa's world-view, which is admittedly difficult to engage with by a modern, adult audience, condemnation of Sansa for these major incidents are embedded with criticism for things outside of said incidents. She fights with Arya and becomes nasty to her at times (though, everyone's so quick to point out the nastiness, and no one ever speaks to Sansa's sadness that Arya prefers the company of everyone but Sansa in Sansa I). Then there's the fact that we have a window to Cersei and Jof, know they are despicable, and blame her for essentially not knowing. Then there's the fact that Sansa doesn't think much of lower-class people, which is a huge turn-off to most modern audiences. It's also very easy to gloss over the fact that once outside of Winterfell, Sansa is largely and painfully left alone, even neglected, with no guidance but Mordane, whose job is to tell her to be good to Joffrey.

The point being, it's not what occurs in these major incidents that seems to influence opinion, but rather, what occurs on the other pages that leads us to see Sansa's behavior and motivations as so wildly different from Ned's.

[Winter's Knight]

I wonder if it's the fact that most readers aren't raised/living in a culture where arranged marriages are the norm plays some part?

I was raised in such a culture, and while my own parents have never brought into the practice, I have seen classmates married off at sixteen because they weren't academically brilliant and further education was considered a waste. I've personally coached friends throughout high school so they can maintain an 85%+ aggregate and thus be allowed to continue studying.

Where I come from, once a girl is married, she belongs to her husband's family and her's are expected to not have any claim on her. Girls are raised to think of their husband's family as their true family, and where their loyalties ought to lie always.

Perhaps that's why I find it easy to understand and empathise with Sansa: I have seen her indoctrined values growing up.

[OldGimletEye]

I wonder if it's the fact that most readers aren't raised/living in a culture where arranged marriages are the norm plays some part?

I was raised in such a culture, and while my own parents have never brought into the practice, I have seen classmates married off at sixteen because they weren't academically brilliant and further education was considered a waste. I've personally coached friends throughout high school so they can maintain an 85%+ aggregate and thus be allowed to continue studying.

Where I come from, once a girl is married, she belongs to her husband's family and her's are expected to not have any claim on her. Girls are raised to think of their husband's family as their true family, and where their loyalties ought to lie always.

Perhaps that's why I find it easy to understand and empathise with Sansa: I have seen her indoctrined values growing up.

I think this is right. I think Sansa was probably expected and trained from her birth to play a particular role. I have a hard time faulting her because she didn't figure out at 12 years of age that a lot of Westeros social conventions are horseshit.

[The Fallen]

Thing is, Ned's honor and character are not things that physically restrain him from fleeing. He CHOOSES to obey their dictates, and he is therefore responsible for his choice. And I actually disagree that it's impossible for someone to be selfish when they're fulfilling what they see as their honorable duty. When you're doing it at someone's expense that you're responsible for? Hell yes, it can be selfish. "My kids are in danger through my crusade to punish Jon Arryn's murderer! But if I abandon my honorable duty to Arryn and Robert, I'll feel ever so ashamed and disappointed in myself!" Tough. If your kids are in danger, run away home with them and DEAL with the guilt. Your helpless children should ALWAYS be your priority - even an animal knows that, and I see no special virtue in replacing them with someone else in your priorities out of 'honor.'

Talk about reaching. By your logic, every president and prime minister is purposefully and negligently putting the lives of their loved ones at risk. Every time I use public transportation with my four year old I'm being negligent. Was Robb putting Bran in harm's way by trying to give Bran something to feel good about when they went riding?

I stated that Ned chose not to flee. I also highlighted how Ned made the necessary arrangements to send his daughters back home before he actually took on Cersei. Why shift the blame from Sansa to Ned? It's alright for Sansa to have made a stupid decision that ended up hurting both her and her family.

Trust me, if Martin's intent was to paint Ned as a bad and irresponsible father we would know it.

Sorry, he knew he was "putting his life on the line" ever since he left Winterfell to replace the murdered Hand of the King, KNOWING that the same thing that happened to Jon Arryn could happen to him. He was okay with that, yes, but he took his children with him, and he was okay with the fact that whatever danger HE ran, THEY would run too, like a dimwitted homicide detective investigating a murder on Take-Your-Kids-To-Work-Day. Every discovery he made underlined the danger further to the kids... but HONOR.

So both Cat and Ned are horrible parents because they knowingly sent Arya and Sansa to King's Landing. And they were irresponsible to send Bran to view justice. And allowing their kids to play with, and keep as pets, wild beasts from beyond the Wall. And how about that Robb? Keeping a wildling in his castle whilst Bran and Rickon were under the same roof. And let's not forget how they keep the dimwitted Hodor around also. What if he loses it one day? With his strength he could instantly kill poor little old Brand and Rickon.

I'm being sarcastic, but this is what your post sounds like. If we're going to go down this road their is absolutely no way to have a decent conversation about any subject.

Also, many here have spoke of Sansa's actions as selfish because they're purely to benefit herself. But if you think about it, how beneficial for SANSA is it to marry a sadistic psychopath who is as likely to turn on HER as on anyone else? Sansa's actions are not working toward a clear-cut benefit for herself - she's willfully shutting her eyes to the potential harm in an act of denial.

And IMO, so is Ned, all along. HIs ultimate act of denial is in the dungeon with Varys. He knows Sansa is in the power of the Lannisters, but he STILL thinks he can keep his honor without it rebounding on her and harming her. In his own way, he's as infatuated with his honor as Sansa is with Joffrey, and as blinded and deluded by his infatuation as she is. Sansa is a hostage of the Lannisters, but Ned proudly proclaims his love for his honor and his willingness to die for it. He is so much in denial that even though he's kept a child hostage himself, Varys has to EXPLAIN what happens to child hostages when their parents don't please the hostage takers. It is to Ned's credit that when finally FORCED to choose between his honor and his child, he chose his child. It's not so much to his credit, though, that his nose had to be rubbed in that choice in a dungeon before he would agree that it was a choice he HAD to make.

And I don't think he was doing anything bad all along. It was denial on Ned's part, AND on Sansa's. Like father, like daughter.

Rubbish. Ned was thinking about his daughters while in the dungeon. When Varys (indirectly) threatens Sansa's life Ned obliges (the chapter ends on a cliffhanger of sorts, but judging by Ned's actions afterwards he clearly values his daughters over his honor). There was no rubbing of the nose. Not to mention the fact that he actually made plans to get them out of King's Landing.

With regards to Sansa, she didn't want to leave court life behind. It's what she immediately thinks about after Ned breaks the news that they're to go back to Winterfell. Joffrey came in a distant second.

And how was Ned in denial? The guy was fully aware and cognizant of what was going on around him and of all his decisions. He was even aware of the fact that he might be completely misjudging that there might still be some of that old Robert somewhere under all the resultant fat of disappointment. That's not denial. Call it what you want; a hunch; a gut feeling; a sixth sense; a belief; or even faith. But it's not denial. Had Robert survived, Ned felt he held the ultimate trump card (once Robert found out about the incest and his supposed children), and all of Cersei's and LF's (Littlefinger) scheming would have been for naught.

[cocoalover1956]

I think this is right. I think Sansa was probably expected and trained from her birth to play a particular role. I have a hard time faulting her because she didn't figure out at 12 years of age that a lot of Westeros social conventions are horseshit.

That might be why a lot of people turn their noses up at her dreams of marriage and children and queenship. Most young girls in fiction want to be free from the social structure but Sansa wants to find her place within it. She comes off as a Cersei-in-training, a budding Alpha Bitch who only cares about being pretty and perfect. Even though its a big deal to Sansa and in her culture, what she wants isn't what modern audiences tend to value, so decisions made with this motivation look frivolous, stupid, and selfish.

Sansa's decisions aren't that bad with the knowledge she had at the time. She blames neither Joffrey nor Arya so no-one would be thrown under bus. Lady's death wasn't a punishment, just Cersei wanting the last laugh.

She tried to mend the rift between the Baratheons and Starks. Yes, it was so she could stay at court and marry Joffrey, but is it really so horrible that she tried to help herself. Nobody else was. Since the Mycha incident, Sansa had just been watching things go downhill for her. Lady was killed; she and Arya can't speak to each other without fighting; Ned isn't there for anymore because he's too busy with work (important work but I digress); Joffrey started showing his true colors. Things aren't as bad as they would be later on, but its not as ideal as she imagined. All she thinks she has left is that dream of a perfect life then her father tells her they're going home and this was for nothing.

I repeat: is it really so bad that a young girl whose life's dream is being taken away from her to act in her own interest with limited knowledge and understanding but no ill intent toward any of the involved parties? No she didn't chose the wisest course of action, but I don't see why her actions get so much scorn.

[OldGimletEye]

That might be why a lot of people turn their noses up at her dreams of marriage and children and queenship. Most young girls in fiction want to be free from the social structure but Sansa wants to find her place within it. She comes off as a Cersei-in-training, a budding Alpha Bitch who only cares about being pretty and perfect. Even though its a big deal to Sansa and in her culture, what she wants isn't what modern audiences tend to value, so decisions made with this motivation look frivolous, stupid, and selfish.

Sansa's decisions aren't that bad with the knowledge she had at the time. She blames neither Joffrey nor Arya so no-one would be thrown under bus. Lady's death wasn't a punishment, just Cersei wanting the last laugh.

She tried to mend the rift between the Baratheons and Starks. Yes, it was so she could stay at court and marry Joffrey, but is it really so horrible that she tried to help herself. Nobody else was. Since the Mycha incident, Sansa had just been watching things go downhill for her. Lady was killed; she and Arya can't speak to each other without fighting; Ned isn't there for anymore because he's too busy with work (important work but I digress); Joffrey started showing his true colors. Things aren't as bad as they would be later on, but its not as ideal as she imagined. All she thinks she has left is that dream of a perfect life then her father tells her they're going home and this was for nothing.

I repeat: is it really so bad that a young girl whose life's dream is being taken away from her to act in her own interest with limited knowledge and understanding but no ill intent toward any of the involved parties? No she didn't chose the wisest course of action, but I don't see why her actions get so much scorn.

Let me further add to what you are saying here. Its not only Sansa that starts off a little deluded about how the "real world" works in Westeros. If I recall correctly, Donal Noye has to explain a few things to John about how the "other half" lives. Even Arya, who has a pretty modern outlook, on a couple of occassions has some derp moments when it comes to the reality of class in Westeros and about Knights in Westeros.

[Mladen]

Talk about reaching. By your logic, every president and prime minister is purposefully and negligently putting the lives of their loved ones at risk. Every time I use public transportation with my four year old I'm being negligent. Was Robb putting Bran in harm's way by trying to give Bran something to feel good about when they went riding?

No, but if you take your daughter to the house of a murderer planning to put them behind the bars, you would be negligent. And that is what Ned did with his daughter.

I stated that Ned chose not to flee. I also highlighted how Ned made the necessary arrangements to send his daughters back home before he actually took on Cersei. Why shift the blame from Sansa to Ned? It's alright for Sansa to have made a stupid decision that ended up hurting both her and her family.

No, I doubt anyone can exonerate Sansa for what she did. She didn't know or realize the consequences of her action, she naively believed to someone she thought to be her friend. Yes, she was foolish in trusting someone who has proven untrustworthy. One also has to point out that Ned had done the same with LF. So, no, no one here is exonerating Sansa, just that two same thing she and Ned did can't be seen equally. Because one is, you know, adult person with experience on his side.

Trust me, if Martin's intent was to paint Ned as a bad and irresponsible father we would know it.

I am sorry, but this speaking about what GRRM wanted or what was his intent is, IMHO, quite pointless. Martin repeatedly showed us that there are layers to every character, from Arya and Sansa to Jaime and Cersei. So, naturally, there are some layers in Ned's story too. Ned simply wasn't a saint, but that also doesn't make him honorable person. What it does make him is a human being. A flawed human being capable of making mistakes. If that is something you or anyone should hate mistake, well. that's all your choice. But simply, you can't argue what Martin wanted us to feel about Ned, because Martin is champion in turning the table just when we think we know what we feel about certain characters.

Rubbish. Ned was thinking about his daughters while in the dungeon. When Varys (indirectly) threatens Sansa's life Ned obliges (the chapter ends on a cliffhanger of sorts, but judging by Ned's actions afterwards he clearly values his daughters over his honor). There was no rubbing of the nose. Not to mention the fact that he actually made plans to get them out of King's Landing.

The biggest issue I have with Ned is not thinking about daughters, he does that, but when he finally realizes what is the most important. If he had been far more careful about his daughters, if he didn't put his honor and duty in front of his daughters for a while, he would have reacted much faster. With Lysa's letter, Cat's arrival and knowledge about dagger, Ned should have understood that girls are in grave danger. He should have shipped them off to Winterfell. Make whatever excuse he can come up with. Let us not delude ourselves. Long-distance engagements weren't something unheard of in Westeros. So, it is not about him thinking about the girls, but that the moment he realizes that girls come first is a bit late.

[cocoalover1956]

Let me further add to what you are saying here. Its not only Sansa that starts off a little deluded about how the "real world" works in Westeros. If I recall correctly, Donal Noye has to explain a few things to John about how the "other half" lives. Even Arya, who has a pretty modern outlook, on a couple of occassions has some derp moments when it comes to the reality of class in Westeros and about Knights in Westeros.

Slightly off topic, but that's a good point to make. All the Stark children, to varying degrees, think they live in a chivalric romance until they get slapped hard with reality. Its more of a reflection of Ned and Cat's parenting than any genuine stupidity on Sansa's part. People just tend to more closely associate it with Sansa because she's easier to shove into the archetype of the stupid idealist than her siblings.

[Lord Voldemort's Toes]

That might be why a lot of people turn their noses up at her dreams of marriage and children and queenship. Most young girls in fiction want to be free from the social structure but Sansa wants to find her place within it. She comes off as a Cersei-in-training, a budding Alpha Bitch who only cares about being pretty and perfect. Even though its a big deal to Sansa and in her culture, what she wants isn't what modern audiences tend to value, so decisions made with this motivation look frivolous, stupid, and selfish.

Sansa's decisions aren't that bad with the knowledge she had at the time. She blames neither Joffrey nor Arya so no-one would be thrown under bus. Lady's death wasn't a punishment, just Cersei wanting the last laugh.

She tried to mend the rift between the Baratheons and Starks. Yes, it was so she could stay at court and marry Joffrey, but is it really so horrible that she tried to help herself. Nobody else was. Since the Mycha incident, Sansa had just been watching things go downhill for her. Lady was killed; she and Arya can't speak to each other without fighting; Ned isn't there for anymore because he's too busy with work (important work but I digress); Joffrey started showing his true colors. Things aren't as bad as they would be later on, but its not as ideal as she imagined. All she thinks she has left is that dream of a perfect life then her father tells her they're going home and this was for nothing.

I repeat: is it really so bad that a young girl whose life's dream is being taken away from her to act in her own interest with limited knowledge and understanding but no ill intent toward any of the involved parties? No she didn't chose the wisest course of action, but I don't see why her actions get so much scorn.

Her decisions ARE stupid, and mostly because (1) she knows Joff is a piece of shit, she just doesn't want to let a little thing like reality get in the way, (2) because why would she dare trust Cersei after she unfairly condemned HER OWN wolf to die (which Sansa even managed to properly blame on her...until it was convenient to forget), and (3) her father, who had just been attacked by the queen's brother in the streets (and whose men were killed), told her it was too dangerous to remain in KL, but Sansa doesn't give a shit.

I mean, "betrayal" is the wrong word for her actions. She is really more pitiable and stupid than anything else. No one blames her for her aspirations...she can go on dreaming of princes and handsome lords all she wants.They just blame her for clinging to Joff and his family in the face of so, so many real and important reasons not to, for her own sake and that of others. She willfully deceives herself and makes decisions on a faulty basis when she absolutely knew better, and for that she is (rightfully) scorned.

Don't get me wrong, I like Sansa. I hope she progresses even more and starts to take serious action in WoW. But her actions in AGoT are inexcusable, even if they don't amount to anything as dramatic as betrayal. They were folly, and I wouldn't reduce her agency by suggesting that she can't be held responsible for her own folly. Especially in a series where the character's survival depends on their ability to deal with and adapt to REALITY.

[Lord Voldemort's Toes]

Slightly off topic, but that's a good point to make. All the Stark children, to varying degrees, think they live in a chivalric romance until they get slapped hard with reality. Its more of a reflection of Ned and Cat's parenting than any genuine stupidity on Sansa's part. People just tend to more closely associate it with Sansa because she's easier to shove into the archetype of the stupid idealist than her siblings.

No, it's because Sansa, of ALL of the Stark children (who, as you point out, all were quite sheltered and taken by surprise at finding out way the "real" world works), failed to comprehend reality and adapt accordingly.

[Lord Voldemort's Toes]

No, it's because Sansa, of ALL of the Stark children (who, as you point out, all were quite sheltered and taken by surprise at finding out the way the "real" world works), failed to comprehend reality and adapt accordingly.

[Mladen]

No, it's because Sansa, of ALL of the Stark children (who, as you point out, all were quite sheltered and taken by surprise at finding out way the "real" world works), failed to comprehend reality and adapt accordingly.

This is also wrong. Let we remind ourselves of what whining baby was Jon, or what emotional problems Arya had due to her inability to see that there is a huge difference between her and the rest of her gang. No, Sansa is not the only one who is not able to comprehend the reality at first given chance. Yes, she needed some time, but then she adapted as best as she could. After all, she survived all the torments, beatings and treats Joffrey has done to her. So, your argument is flawed in the very nature, because ALL Stark kids have a bit problem in comprehending reality when emotions are involved. Which, btw, is completely normal thing for the kids of their age.

[cocoalover1956]

Her decisions ARE stupid, and mostly because (1) she knows Joff is a piece of shit, she just doesn't want to let a little thing like reality get in the way, (2) because why would she dare trust Cersei after she unfairly condemned HER OWN wolf to die (which Sansa even managed to properly blame on her...until it was convenient to forget), and (3) her father, who had just been attacked by the queen's brother in the streets (and whose men were killed), told her it was too dangerous to remain in KL, but Sansa doesn't give a shit.

I mean, "betrayal" is the wrong word for her actions. She is really more pitiable and stupid than anything else. No one blames her for her aspirations...she can go on dreaming of princes and handsome lords all she wants.They just blame her for clinging to Joff and his family in the face of so, so many real and important reasons not to, for her own sake and that of others. She willfully deceives herself and makes decisions on a faulty basis when she absolutely knew better, and for that she is (rightfully) scorned.

Don't get me wrong, I like Sansa. I hope she progresses even more and starts to take serious action in WoW. But her actions in AGoT are inexcusable, even if they don't amount to anything as dramatic as betrayal. They were folly, and I wouldn't reduce her agency by suggesting that she can't be held responsible for her own folly. Especially in a series where the character's survival depends on their ability to deal with and adapt to REALITY.

You're correcting me on things I never said. I know Sansa's choices aren't the best, but they're not as bad as people make them out to be.

(1) She overlooks/sugarcoats Joffrey's actions because the truth was harder to deal with. Not smart, but completely normal human behavior.

(2) I repeat number 1.

(3) Okay, I admit I don't have an answer to that. But it's not that she didn't care, its that she didn't comprehend how dangerous the situation.

Yes, she made bad choices and acted unwisely, but the problem I have is the fandom's reaction to it. They tend to exaggerate her faults, when really she makes a some mistakes that happen to have big consequences.

No, it's because Sansa, of ALL of the Stark children (who, as you point out, all were quite sheltered and taken by surprise at finding out way the "real" world works), failed to comprehend reality and adapt accordingly.

Only until her father's death, then all things she missed or blocked out came crashing down on her. She is forced to adapt and learn later in the series. In fact, that was her story arc in most of the series. Learn and adapting, figuring how to stay alive, how to keep her captor happy while maintaining her dignity. She's still learning in the Eyrie, but she adapted to her new environment right away.