Bakker XXIII: Priapic Godlings and Whoresome Folks

[Anatúrinbor]

On what basis would she conclude he was a eunuch?

He doesn't want to rape her.

[Gaston de Foix]

He doesn't want to rape her.

He was wooing her - assiduously. You can't say because she did not detect imminent lustful violence in his gaze, he was a eunuch. That's starting a whole different thread about the male gaze and Bakker's work...

[Francis Buck]

He was wooing her - assiduously. You can't say because she did not detect imminent lustful violence in his gaze, he was a eunuch. That's starting a whole different thread about the male gaze and Bakker's work...

Honestly, it wouldn't shock me if that was Bakker's thought-process on it. He borderline philosophizes that men are rape-machines.

[Shryke]

He was wooing her - assiduously. You can't say because she did not detect imminent lustful violence in his gaze, he was a eunuch. That's starting a whole different thread about the male gaze and Bakker's work...

It seems more an in character view on the issue.

When has Mimara not viewed men as fucking-machines? She grew up a whore, it's practically to be expected.

[Anatúrinbor]

He was wooing her - assiduously. You can't say because she did not detect imminent lustful violence in his gaze, he was a eunuch. That's starting a whole different thread about the male gaze and Bakker's work...

Men don't 'woo' women in the Bakkerverse (especially not in Mimara's experience.) I actually thought that that whole storyline felt a bit out of place in TSA, imagine how Mimara felt about it.

Sometimes I think the whole point of the Sranc is to make some sort of analogy. Men are to women as Sranc are to humans.

[Madness]

No endorsement but...

These are the kinds of papers Bakker reads to inform his world:

Adaptions for Exploitation

Aggression and Violent Behavior

[Shryke]

Men don't 'woo' women in the Bakkerverse (especially not in Mimara's experience.) I actually thought that that whole storyline felt a bit out of place in TSA, imagine how Mimara felt about it.

Sometimes I think the whole point of the Sranc is to make some sort of analogy. Men are to women as Sranc are to humans.

Achamian and Kellhus both woo Esmenent.

I think it's rather silly to try and paint this as a broader point rather then a Mimara specific thing.

[Anatúrinbor]

Then two emissaries were brought before the Nonman King. If the IF was nothing but an Inchoroi goad, then that would have been the perfect timing to set the trap. I think having the King of the Nonmen instantly on your side would be pretty damn beneficial to your cause, no? After all, if it is just a trick to convince people to join the Inchoroi, then he would have no motivation to do anything but work with then in order to save his soul, his people be Damned or not. Again, these events give the impression not that the IF is some instant turncloaking device, but rather a dangerous and powerful tool of genuine revelation.

Btw, wouldn't the IF work exactly the same on a damned person whether it was genuine or a goad? And those two Inchoroi weren't emissaries because they couldn't even communicate with the Nonmen.

I think the Inchoroi did try to get Cu'jara Cinmoi on their side, they sent that Emwama Sirwitta who mysteriously entered the Ark and returned insane. Cu'jara put him to death (or cut out his tongue) presumabely after he told him of the IF. And it's maybe because of that that he wanted immortality.

[Madness]

Ugh... k, I'm done bouncing around here.

Last thought, Ruiner: "Nonmen are False" is an addition to the Tusk by the Inchoroi.

That means that we don't know if or why Nonmen are Damned (let's assume practicing sorcery still gets you Damned as a Nonmen) but all the Ishroi, that aren't also Quya, very well could be Righteous.

Which would be what Mimara might see in Ishterebinth...

[Anatúrinbor]

Ugh... k, I'm done bouncing around here.

Yeah, sorry about that. :lol:

I don't think all Nonmen are damned. But I wonder if in the Inchoroi's experience there was a single instance where someone looked into the IF and saw something other than damnation. And I'm not really sure how they were supposed to show it to Cu'jara in the first place assuming they can't carry it around.

[Sci-2]

Ugh... k, I'm done bouncing around here.

Last thought, Ruiner: "Nonmen are False" is an addition to the Tusk by the Inchoroi.

That means that we don't know if or why Nonmen are Damned (let's assume practicing sorcery still gets you Damned as a Nonmen) but all the Ishroi, that aren't also Quya, very well could be Righteous.

Which would be what Mimara might see in Ishterebinth...

I don't know - it's unclear the extent to which sin echoes. If these Ishroi benefited from slaves bred in the pits (which might all be topos now) they could all be damned.

Mek changed sides a few times - could some of the Quya [have] visited the IF and then gone back over and told the current Intact about the damnation that awaits them?

[Anatúrinbor]

Mek changed sides a few times -

?

You're talking about when he supposedly freed Seswatha from the Wall?

[Sci-2]

?

You're talking about when he supposedly freed Seswatha from the Wall?

Well Mek rode for and against the Ichoroi.

But yeah, if Mek freed Seswatha and maybe helped the Sohonc grandmaster steal the Heron Spear from the Ark it seems possible to me that some Quya could leave the Consult - if only temporarily when their madness makes them forget the full experience of damnation.

forgot damnation.

[jurble]

What exactly taxes the strength of Kellhus and Serwa when they teleport? How exactly are they fatigued? They don't have mana pools. Does it require intense mental effort? The way Kellhus collapses after appearing back in Momemn seems to indicate physical fatigue, not mental fatigue.

[Anatúrinbor]

But yeah, if Mek freed Seswatha and maybe helped the Sohonc grandmaster steal the Heron Spear from the Ark it seems possible to me that some Quya could leave the Consult - if only temporarily when their madness makes them forget the full experience of damnation.

Doesn't it seem like damnation/IF is the one thing that an erratic won't forget? They only remember traumatic experiences, it seems weird for them to forget the most traumatic experience of all.

[Sci-2]

Doesn't it seem like damnation/IF is the one thing that an erratic won't forget? They only remember traumatic experiences, it seems weird for them to forget the most traumatic experience of all.

I think they might [temporarily] lose some of the experiential memory of how horrible it was.

Another alternative is recall that in some ways Cleric was Legion, a set of warring subpersonal entities within one skull. Seems possible one of those entities might gain dominance and be disassociated from subpersonal entities more worried about the future.

Additionally, IIRC Bakker has posited that the sense of identity across stretches of time might be illusory. If Cleric's madness reveals this, the entity driving him and other Nonmen at moments of lucidity might actually end before death is even close. Such an entity would have no fear of the afterlife.

eta: Just seems weird Mek might've helped Seswatha after seeing the IF.

[unJon]

I don't know - it's unclear the extent to which sin echoes. If these Ishroi benefited from slaves bred in the pits (which might all be topos now) they could all be damned.

Mek changed sides a few times - could some of the Quya [have] visited the IF and then gone back over and told the current Intact about the damnation that awaits them?

I really doubt every nonman has been damned throughout history. There's no basis to think sin echoes to those that are not sinners themselves. Also if all nonmen were always damned it seems strange Bakker would have told us outside of the text that the Inchies added that to the Tusk.

[unJon]

eta: Just seems weird Mek might've helped Seswatha after seeing the IF.

We already know Mek's reaction to the IF was different than the reaction of the two other nonmen that saw it with him. Also remember Mek never rides against the Nogod. So Mek could have been working towards what he thought was salvation by helping Seawatha. Who knows why. He doesn't need to forget the IF experience. He just needs to forget that the Inchies have a plan to stop it.

[Sci-2]

We already know Mek's reaction to the IF was different than the reaction of the two other nonmen that saw it with him.

Sorry, can you tell me where this is? I can't recall this.

Also remember Mek never rides against the Nogod. So Mek could have been working towards what he thought was salvation by helping Seawatha. Who knows why. He doesn't need to forget the IF experience. He just needs to forget that the Inchies have a plan to stop it.

Ah, good point.

[Francis Buck]

eta: Just seems weird Mek might've helped Seswatha after seeing the IF.

I agree, and in fact I think Mek only helped Seswatha after showing him the IF. I believe Ses saw the IF during his plunge into Golgotterath with Nau-Cayuti, and that it altered his over-arching plan in a significant way. On a more crackpottery note, I also don't think he kept himself (or his soul) "alive" via the Mandate Grasping in order to keep fighting the Consult so much as to simply make himself immortal and avoid Damnation. He's not in league with the Consult at all -- but he does want to stop Damnation, just not the way the Inchoroi do it (summoning the No-God). I think he basically had a "better plan", possibly one that doesn't involve killing most of Earwa, and that it actually falls more in line with Kellhus's overall goal. After defeating the No-God, Seswatha created the Mandate and the Dunyain. The Dunyain couldn't use sorcery to become what Seswatha envisioned (we don't why yet, but there's obviously a reason for their banning of sorcery), so he made the Mandate both to keep himself alive and to eventually guide the Chosen One (Achamian, or whoever else would have fit at the time) to teach the Gnosis (which he also monopolized) to a Dunyain -- specifically an Anasurimbor, one purposely bred for millenia to be ready for Celmomian's Prophecy and the end of the world. That's why in the prologue of TDTCB, the Dunyain guy calls it a great correspondence of cause when they find an Anasurimbor boy still living in Ishual. The prophecy could be fulfilled, and Seswatha could "end the world", but in a way that he deems good -- one where Damnation doesn't exist anymore. Perhaps via Kellhus reaching the Absolute by merging all of the souls in the universe and awakening the God.