Bakker XXIII: Priapic Godlings and Whoresome Folks

[Anatúrinbor]

After defeating the No-God, Seswatha created the Mandate and the Dunyain. The Dunyain couldn't use sorcery to become what Seswatha envisioned (we don't why yet, but there's obviously a reason for their banning of sorcery),

Good one. Reminds me of how Hari Seldon created the two Foundations and gave one of them technology and the other mental science.

[Gaston de Foix]

After defeating the No-God, Seswatha created the Mandate and the Dunyain. The Dunyain couldn't use sorcery to become what Seswatha envisioned (we don't why yet, but there's obviously a reason for their banning of sorcery), so he made the Mandate both to keep himself alive and to eventually guide the Chosen One (Achamian, or whoever else would have fit at the time) to teach the Gnosis (which he also monopolized) to a Dunyain -- specifically an Anasurimbor, one purposely bred for millenia to be ready for Celmomian's Prophecy and the end of the world.

An intriguing theory. However, if this were true, Akka would be able to directly reach the Gnosis to Kellhus (I assume that is the way the Gnosis is taught at Atyersus) and would not need to be whelmed by Kellhus.

I think one or more of the Gods had a hand in the founding of the Dunyain. No other agency would be able to ensure that Ishual was not disturbed for 2000 years. Perhaps Ajokli, because he apparently sees what other Gods do not?

The critical question here is one of timing; the Consult are working to raise the No-God for 2000 years, and suddenly when they are within 20-30 years of completion, the Dunyain arise from their slumber? The one hidden force that could unite Mankind before the crisis arose, and therefore save them?

[Larry of the Lawn]

An intriguing theory. However, if this were true, Akka would be able to directly reach the Gnosis to Kellhus (I assume that is the way the Gnosis is taught at Atyersus) and would not need to be whelmed by Kellhus.

I think one or more of the Gods had a hand in the founding of the Dunyain. No other agency would be able to ensure that Ishual was not disturbed for 2000 years. Perhaps Ajokli, because he apparently sees what other Gods do not?

The critical question here is one of timing; the Consult are working to raise the No-God for 2000 years, and suddenly when they are within 20-30 years of completion, the Dunyain arise from their slumber? The one hidden force that could unite Mankind before the crisis arose, and therefore save them?

Maybe not, could be a safeguard that Ses built into the whole Heart/Gnosis stuff to keep the Gnosis exclusive and not easily spread about, and also to make sure that only an Anasurimbor Dunyain would be able to work a way around the safeguard to obtain the Gnosis from a Mandate Schoolman.

[Gaston de Foix]

Maybe not, could be a safeguard that Ses built into the whole Heart/Gnosis stuff to keep the Gnosis exclusive and not easily spread about, and also to make sure that only an Anasurimbor Dunyain would be able to work a way around the safeguard to obtain the Gnosis from a Mandate Schoolman.

I agree with the former.

Attributing sufficient insight to Seswatha to suggest that he could foresee the technique of whelming which would allow Dunyain to speak to the Seswatha homunculus within a Mandati, suggests that Seswatha was himself Dunyain or a master of Dunyain techniques. If so, he could have united all men there and then and destroyed the Consult.

[Francis Buck]

Attributing sufficient insight to Seswatha to suggest that he could foresee the technique of whelming which would allow Dunyain to speak to the Seswatha homunculus within a Mandati, suggests that Seswatha was himself Dunyain or a master of Dunyain techniques. If so, he could have united all men there and then and destroyed the Consult.

All he had to know was that it was possible for the "code" to be cracked, which is not much of a stretch. In addition, Kellhus did not speak to the homunculus via whelming, he did it through a form of hypnotism -- something Seswatha could have easily foreseen.

[Gaston de Foix]

During the course of WLW Mimara sees herself with the Judging Eye and sees that she is good. She subsequently kills a man. So is she damned?

[unJon]

During the course of WLW Mimara sees herself with the Judging Eye and sees that she is good. She subsequently kills a man. So is she damned?

My own view is no. The judging eye sees like the gods do in a non-temporal way. like we see in the white luck warrior POVs. Remember that Mimara's POV is in the preset tense, which I think is a tipoff. All other POVs are normal past tense (excluding WLW POV). So the judging eye sees all at once the sins you have committed and will commit and passes judgment. Since Mimara is not damned when viewed by the judging eye, the later killing doesn't change that.

Is there anything in the judging eye POVs that contradict my view and make clear it only sees past sins? Remember Mimara actually saw that one guy could redeem himself but that he woul not. IIRC, that would comport with my theory that the judging eye sees the whole life of te person at once.

[Francis Buck]

My own view is no. The judging eye sees like the gods do in a non-temporal way. like we see in the white luck warrior POVs. Remember that Mimara's POV is in the preset tense, which I think is a tipoff. All other POVs are normal past tense (excluding WLW POV). So the judging eye sees all at once the sins you have committed and will commit and passes judgment. Since Mimara is not damned when viewed by the judging eye, the later killing doesn't change that.

Is there anything in the judging eye POVs that contradict my view and make clear it only sees past sins? Remember Mimara actually saw that one guy could redeem himself but that he woul not. IIRC, that would comport with my theory that the judging eye sees the whole life of te person at once.

Nothing to add other than that I agree 100%.

[Gaston de Foix]

Interesting fact from WLW. Kosoter has, in the course of one human lifetime, incurred greater damnation than Cleric, notwithstanding the fact the latter is both Quya and Erratic (i.e. doomed to kill those he loves).

[Armitage]

Interesting fact from WLW. Kosoter has, in the course of one human lifetime, incurred greater damnation than Cleric, notwithstanding the fact the latter is both Quya and Erratic (i.e. doomed to kill those he loves).

Kosoter is a Ciphrang. It is known.

[Francis Buck]

I would love if Kosoter was a Ciphrang. It's so heavily hinted at, but I think Bakker just wants it to be purposely ambiguous. Unless maybe Kellhus somehow made Kosoter get possessed, thinking it would make him better suited to the task of escorting Achamian to Sauglish and the map?

[unJon]

Kosoter and Sarl were red herrings hiding the skin spy Somma.

In other news, WTF is up with the weird glitch in the matrix that Sorweel experiences at the end of WLW while teleporting??

[Gaston de Foix]

What are you basing this on? Because Mimara sees a demon within Kosoter and just a big stain on Cleric?

I was going on the scene when Kosoter kneels. You actually quoted it in full in an earlier thread (#196), but there's another, more ambiguous discussion that I'll link to in a later post.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/48662-the-white-luck-warrior-by-r-scott-bakker/page-10

[Gaston de Foix]

Quick question-are Quya mages less powerful than metagnostic cant speaking Mandati or Swayali (or Serwe?)

[Kalbear]

Yes. Hell, they're not as powerful as akka.

[Anatúrinbor]

Not necessarily.

[Kalbear]

From a raw power perspective the metagnostics are clearly more. Teleporting is at least an example of this.

[Anatúrinbor]

Does the ability to perform meta cants like teleportation make other regular destructive gnostic cants more powerful? If not then a meta-sorcerer is not necessarily more powerful (as in can defeat) a non-meta one.

Eitherway, we can't make a blanket statement that Serwa is more powerful than every Quya (or Mandate schoolman) that has ever lived.

[Sci-2]

Does the ability to perform meta cants like teleportation make other regular destructive gnostic cants more powerful? If not then a meta-sorcerer is not necessarily more powerful (as in can defeat) a non-meta one.

Was thinking this myself. We know versatility comes from additional utterals, but potency seems to come from clarity of meaning.

But Kellhus's ability to hammer the earth and toss thousands of Sranc into the air is suggestive of something beyond making classic spells stronger.

[Callan S.]

It's interesting that before this thread I never considered all the comments about the whore of fate to be anything but an expression but you know, you are probably right.

I was like that on the second apocalypse forum and other posters were like 'what, you never got that fate is a goddess?'

It's like people name their cars - doesn't mean I think they are assigning an actual entitiy to their vehicle. Same when people curse fate as being a whore.

Maybe ties in with the whole 'what folk believe becomes so' speculation - people kept cursing fate as a whore and some system whipped up an goddess entity to suit.