Bakker XXIII: Priapic Godlings and Whoresome Folks

[Callan S.]

What was the Dunyain explanation for the dreams that Moe sent if they don't believe in sorcery?

The explanation was their own suicides afterwards. That's their explanation.

It's the Dunyain version of because shut up, that's why!

[Callan S.]

Moenghus was sent out to kill some Sranc who had found the valley of Ishuäl. Having finished that task, he was not readmitted to the Dunyain, because he was viewed as infected.

Doubt it. Telling him to go run off and be a variable?

No, it's Dunyain denial or just old fashioned lie - saying they dumped him instead of him dumping them.

He found something. And he did not come back.

May simply have been to encounter a nonman erratic casting magic. His son runs into one, after all - and gets a bit of a show as well.

[Callan S.]

What exactly taxes the strength of Kellhus and Serwa when they teleport? How exactly are they fatigued? They don't have mana pools. Does it require intense mental effort? The way Kellhus collapses after appearing back in Momemn seems to indicate physical fatigue, not mental fatigue.

My idea in previous threads is that the fatigue is a lie and he taught his daughter a version with something extra in it that just makes her tired.

It's certainly a genre trope that teleportation magic tires you.

[karaddin]

My crackpot is that the base cant the metagnostic teleport is based on is sleep/dream related so repetitive use of it is draining in some hand wave fashion.

[Gaston de Foix]

Was thinking this myself. We know versatility comes from additional utterals, but potency seems to come from clarity of meaning.

But Kellhus's ability to hammer the earth and toss thousands of Sranc into the air is suggestive of something beyond making classic spells stronger.

great explanation.

I think Kellhus has discovered or invented multiple new spells beyond anything previously known, even the legendary Quya witch King whose name I forget.

What seems interesting is that has applied his intellect to the mastery of magic, but not necessarily technology. The only technological innovation we have seen has been the billows that sorcerors wear. We haven't seen any in-world invention of cannon or even a better crossbow. This goes for Moenghus too. Earwa seems to have a constant tech-level and no itch to innovate.

We know what the brazier that Kellhus owns does, but what does the Throne (with its "arras") do?

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Hey, I've been lurking on here awhile. I got my tip to read the series from the Lit. forum. Now, I love the books. But, I still don't understand half the shit about metaphysics you guys discuss. I really like reading madness and locksnow.

Anyhow, I have one ? Who destroyed ishaul? Thank you very much.

[Gaston de Foix]

Hey, I've been lurking on here awhile. I got my tip to read the series from the Lit. forum. Now, I love the books. But, I still don't understand half the shit about metaphysics you guys discuss. I really like reading madness and locksnow.

Anyhow, I have one ? Who destroyed ishaul? Thank you very much.

Kellhus and the Consult are generally considered the two major contenders. Each view has its adherents.

I too enjoy reading madness and lockesnow.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Kellhus and the Consult are generally considered the two major contenders. Each view has its adherents.

I too enjoy reading madness and lockesnow.

Ok, them were the two I thought of. Just wanted to see if there was any other ideas. Because, my problem with the Consult is how did they find it? I know when Akka found the map it was open, but I thought it was just cracked. Now kellhus is the most likely IMO, but then why? I can't wrap my head around it.

[Madness]

Wutteat, flying back to Golgotterath and his Masters - always been my guess.

Ah shucks, Maester SJ, thanks.

You know there is a whole Bakker fanforum - links in my sig ;).

[Kalbear]

Kellhus invented all the siege weaponry we see at the beginning of tje. He also apparently invented ways of dealing with disease and logistics, though they don't appear to be all that good.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Given the level of starting technology I am not sure how far he could've taken it, in any case. You can't make an assault rifle in 20 years with the base tech they have.

Besides, why assume that Kellhus would even care to improve technology, military or otherwise? The improvement of magic directly aids him. Better technology would aid others as well.

[Gaston de Foix]

The improvement of magic directly aids him. Better technology would aid others as well.

If that techniques were shared and it's mundane origins revealed.

I had missed the siege weapons from the beginning of TJE. What are they?

[Happy Ent]

There are several societal changes explicitly mentioned at the start of Eye. This kind of societal engineering is at least as important as making better weapons. Kellhus has set the empire on the road to become Sweden.

(Did you miss that the siege engines were delivered in flat packages and had names like Tryggve and Jönås?)

[Sci-2]

Maybe ties in with the whole 'what folk believe becomes so' speculation - people kept cursing fate as a whore and some system whipped up an goddess entity to suit.

Well there was a named goddess, Anagke or something like that. Don't her assassins try to kill Kelmomas and Sammi?

Wonder if that means Fate is also against Kellhus - one would think so given the nature of the WLW. Then again, if two gods are tricksy playing their own I'd say it was the Whore and the Four Horned brother.

He found something. And he did not come back.

May simply have been to encounter a nonman erratic casting magic. His son runs into one, after all - and gets a bit of a show as well.

This is a really good point. Surely they'd just murder him. Unless they believed the whole world was a wasteland of Sranc, why take the chance?

My idea in previous threads is that the fatigue is a lie and he taught his daughter a version with something extra in it that just makes her tired.

It's certainly a genre trope that teleportation magic tires you.

My crackpot is that the base cant the metagnostic teleport is based on is sleep/dream related so repetitive use of it is draining in some hand wave fashion.

I think the issue is you have to hold the distance in your mind, while also minimizing the distance to zero because space is an illusion.

Maybe space and time are also an illusion, dreamt up by the Sleeping God? Shifting the dream might be how Kellhus pulls off the miracle. As others point out, the narration at the point of ripping his heart out feels different than the usual Kellhus PoVs.

[Sci-2]

What seems interesting is that has applied his intellect to the mastery of magic, but not necessarily technology. The only technological innovation we have seen has been the billows that sorcerors wear. We haven't seen any in-world invention of cannon or even a better crossbow. This goes for Moenghus too. Earwa seems to have a constant tech-level and no itch to innovate.

We know what the brazier that Kellhus owns does, but what does the Throne (with its "arras") do?

I don't think we've been told what the arras do. Given that an entire Gnostic school was once dedicated to artifacts, seems like Kellhus would think to create some [to use in battle].

I mean, the Consult has had a thousand years and Shae's expertise. Seswatha as battle Shae, which means the old bastard can probably use a battle worthy synthese like Madness suggested.

[Gaston de Foix]

Well there was a named goddess, Anagke or something like that. Don't her assassins try to kill Kelmomas and Sammi?

Wonder if that means Fate is also against Kellhus - one would think so given the nature of the WLW. Then again, if two gods are tricksy playing their own I'd say it was the Whore and the Four Horned brother.

This is a really good point. Surely they'd just murder him. Unless they believed the whole world was a wasteland of Sranc, why take the chance?

I think the issue is you have to hold the distance in your mind, while also minimizing the distance to zero because space is an illusion.

Somebody asked upthread about what goes wrong in the sorweel teleportation - and the answer is actually in the text- a lack of clarity as to meaning messes up the cant. The lack of clarity coming from exhaustion. I think it's just about the capability of holding onto the purity of meaning.

So Serwe and Moenghus sex was entirely staged for its effect on Sorweel, correct? And the objective was to get him to hate them.

[Rhom]

So Serwe and Moenghus sex was entirely staged for its effect on Sorweel, correct? And the objective was to get him to hate them.

That was my impression. Something to do with the need for an enemy as part of their embassy to Ishteribinth.

[Gaston de Foix]

I don't think we've been told what the arras do. Given that an entire Gnostic school was once dedicated to artifacts, seems like Kellhus would think to create some [to use in battle].

What's interesting is that Kellhus himself has no chorae negating artifact. We know this from the siege of Sakarpus. He also doesn't have (presumably becuase he doesn't need one - a flying chariot Nonman style).

I'm really looking forward to finding out more about the artifacts and about the school of Aporetics.

[Gaston de Foix]

There has been some discussion/speculation about the extent to which the Nonmen of Ishterebinth have managed to remain Intact. Incariol/Cleric sheds some light on this question when he states the cause for pledging their allegiance to Min-Uroikas was the loss of memory.

"The old Wizard watched his booted feet kick through forest debris.

"So what of Ishterebinth?" he asked. "Has it fallen?"

The hulking Nonman made a gesture that possessed the character of a shrug. "Fallen? No. Turned. In the absence of recollection my brothers have turned to tyranny… To Min-Uroikas." (Kindle WLW, 9490)

[Sci-2]

What's interesting is that Kellhus himself has no chorae negating artifact. We know this from the siege of Sakarpus. He also doesn't have (presumably becuase he doesn't need one - a flying chariot Nonman style).

I'm really looking forward to finding out more about the artifacts and about the school of Aporetics.

I'm also guessing the Mandate did their best to have some artifacts ready.

After all, if Seswatha had the talent to make magic items surely the Mandate would as well. And they did plan on sharing the Gnosis with all humanity at the end of the world.