Francis Buck Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Nin-ciljiras Who is this again? Couldn't find him on the wiki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston de Foix Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 He's in the TTT appendix very briefly. There's ambiguity as to whether he or Nil-giccas is the last Nonman king and/or kind of Ishterebinth. In the first trilogy Aurang-as-synthese says something to one of his skin spies along the lines of "there is little that Nin-ciljiras does that we do not know about...very little" which implies that The Consult has spies in Ishterebinth (but also could imply that the Mansion has not gone full-on Consult either?). NC has not been on-screen in any capacity. ETA: But presumably might be the highest-ranking remaining Nonman that isn't full-on Consult. I think they have allied with the Consult, which is distinct from control by the Consult. The motive is fear of damnation, and as of now, the Consult is the only agency offering a method to forestall it. But perhaps the Anasurimbors are travelling with a counter-offer? I am quite interested in Nonman politics and organisation: we know that there must have been some notion of primogeniture or inheritance since one of the Nonmen Kings become King of one of the mansions by marriage. We also know, unlike their Elvish archetypes, that they continously warred against each other. I wonder whether Nil-giccas was Cujara Cinmoi's son (which would explain the possession of the ashes). If not, that means Cujara Cinmoi had no sons, or Kingship supersedes the son's right to possession of Qirri. Interestingly we never see Nil-giccas consume Qirri do we? It's a drug for others, not himself. Perhaps it is not Serwa and the promise of resurrecting the Nonman line but "Maggot" who will be the prize that sways Ishterebinth. A Nonman baby would be a wonder.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentRoamer Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Thinking more about the metagnostic talents of the Dunyain we know about - ok so we see Serwe getting tired in WLW but do we see it from her POV as I distinctly remember Sorweel as the main POV in their scenes. Anyone can shed any light? Also I was thinking that Kellhus might be able to do more than he is actually letting on - I would not be surprised to discover that he has been able to create additional magic based on 3rd or 4th inutterals - it led me to thinking maybe the ultimate TFT is actually a thousand inutterals and one utteral - would be very cool and maybe this could actually accomplish shutting off the Outside or whatever other grand scheme Kellhus has. I really want to see a Kellhus POV in TUC like we saw in the original trilogy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I think they have allied with the Consult, which is distinct from control by the Consult. The motive is fear of damnation, and as of now, the Consult is the only agency offering a method to forestall it. But perhaps the Anasurimbors are travelling with a counter-offer? I am quite interested in Nonman politics and organisation: we know that there must have been some notion of primogeniture or inheritance since one of the Nonmen Kings become King of one of the mansions by marriage. We also know, unlike their Elvish archetypes, that they continously warred against each other. I wonder whether Nil-giccas was Cujara Cinmoi's son (which would explain the possession of the ashes). If not, that means Cujara Cinmoi had no sons, or Kingship supersedes the son's right to possession of Qirri. rInterestingly we never see Nil-giccas consume Qirri do we? It's a drug for others, not himself. Perhaps it is not Serwa and the promise of resurrecting the Nonman line but "Maggot" who will be the prize that sways Ishterebinth. A Nonman baby would be a wonder....Mimara feeds Cleric some quirri in a sexy moment.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Also I was thinking that Kellhus might be able to do more than he is actually letting on - I would not be surprised to discover that he has been able to create additional magic based on 3rd or 4th inutterals - it led me to thinking maybe the ultimate TFT is actually a thousand inutterals and one utteral - would be very cool and maybe this could actually accomplish shutting off the Outside or whatever other grand scheme Kellhus has. It's possible, but this kind of thing worries me. We don't even know enough about the Gnosis to understand exactly what a third utteral does. So even added a fourth utteral should be significant, let alone a thousand. I want the series to have some in-world logic as to how Kellhus does what he does. We know you can take Calling - connect two conscious minds via dreams - and turn it into Transposition - connect two physical locations in the real world. The only other example thing I feel confident is an example of metagnosis is Kellhus's spinning rock shield at the end of TTT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Buck Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 It's possible, but this kind of thing worries me. We don't even know enough about the Gnosis to understand exactly what a third utteral does. So even added a fourth utteral should be significant, let alone a thousand. I want the series to have some in-world logic as to how Kellhus does what he does. We know you can take Calling - connect two conscious minds via dreams - and turn it into Transposition - connect two physical locations in the real world. The only other example thing I feel confident is an example of metagnosis is Kellhus's spinning rock shield at the end of TTT. I think Kellhus saving everybody at the end of WLW (when the the two schools are fighting) was an example of a metagnostic war-cant. He walks across the sky, and with every footstep the ground explodes. No one has ever achieved that kind of raw power thus far in the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I think Kellhus saving everybody at the end of WLW (when the the two schools are fighting) was an example of a metagnostic war-cant. He walks across the sky, and with every footstep the ground explodes. No one has ever achieved that kind of raw power thus far in the series. That's a good one. I can't tell if it's Kellhus walking and throwing out concussion cants, or the walking [is] combined with a force multiplier for each step. But yeah, does seem like some metagnosis there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I really want to see a Kellhus POV in TUC like we saw in the original trilogy!I hope we only see what Kellhus does in the next book without getting inside his head. Although Bakker is probably going to info dump everything that Kellhus has been thinking since TTT down to the last detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrathOfTinyKittens Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 If those are concussion Cants, they're absurdly powerful compared to those that Akka uses. I think it must be Metagnostic by the way it is described:Where he walked the air, whole tracts of earth exploded beneath him, as though the God himself pummeled the powdered soil.The first part is a Cant we know. The second part is an added effect - a second inutteral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston de Foix Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 If those are concussion Cants, they're absurdly powerful compared to those that Akka uses. I think it must be Metagnostic by the way it is described:The first part is a Cant we know. The second part is an added effect - a second inutteral. I'm struggling to make sense of the logic. In relation to this cant, it seems just like a power up x 1000 to have a second inutteral. In relation to the cant of transposition a second inutteral fundamentally changes the nature of the cant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 We know you can take Calling - connect two conscious minds via dreams - and turn it into Transposition - connect two physical locations in the real world.so, if calling squared is transposition, is calling cubed transdimension, or is the harrowing of hell bit just more transposition? and, if so, is calling cubed something BBT related, yaknow, negating the issue he raises in his philosophical writings? (or would that be calling tesseracted? just WTF is the slick geometrical participle for raising to the fourth power, anyway?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madness Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Wikipedia says: In arithmetic and algebra, the fourth power of a number n is the result of multiplying four instances of n together. So: n4 = n × n × n × nFourth powers are also formed by multiplying a number by its cube. Furthermore, they are squares of squares.The sequence of fourth powers of integers (also known as biquadratic numbers or tesseractic numbers) is: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I'm struggling to make sense of the logic. In relation to this cant, it seems just like a power up x 1000 to have a second inutteral. In relation to the cant of transposition a second inutteral fundamentally changes the nature of the cant. This would apply if it were metagnostic cant of concussion, but if it's the metagnostic sky walking it's a fundamental change. Sky walking is walking on echoes of the ground, meta version includes transmitting the footstep from that echo back to the actual ground and as the ground is a lot more substantial than its echo it turns the footstep into an explosion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 So Serwe and Moenghus sex was entirely staged for its effect on Sorweel, correct? And the objective was to get him to hate them. What do you mean by staged? I don't see any indication that Moe and Serwa don't regularly have sex at other times. But staged in that Sorweel was meant to see them and get angry, yeah. That said, I don't think it's to provide an enemy. It's more that Serwa is seriously confused as to why Sorweel still loves the Anasurimbors, so she does something that logically should lead Sorweel to hate her. If she reads his face and still sees love, then it means something is up. It's an experiment, I guess. I feel bad for Serwa and Moe. They're almost certainly going to get raped to death in the next book. Sorweel will probably be kept alive for his uses to the Consult. (Of course, Kellhus had this all planned in some sort of massive Xanatos Gambit). Although, Serwa going over to the Consult is also a possibily, once she's convinced of her damnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I feel bad for Serwa and Moe. crackpot: Cnauir is still alive and a tool of the Consult, and has Moe spared. And then strangles him in a dissociative rage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Where he walked the air, whole tracts of earth exploded beneath him, as though the God himself pummeled the powdered soil. Is this a manifestation of the God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Is this a manifestation of the God? Doubtful. Kellhus [h]as incredible power [there] but it doesn't seem to be miraculous. It's possible Titriga has similar prowess though personally I suspect Tit's renown was in bringing in his personal frame to bear on reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrathOfTinyKittens Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Karaddin is correct, at least in my interpretation. Kellhus is performing the sky-walking Cant and the second inutteral is destroying the ground in some fashion. My thought on the transportation Cant is this: the Cants of Calling allow the Schoolman to "move" his consciousness from one place to another. The second inutteral refines the Cant to apply to the body as well. I think that much is relatively obvious but I am not sure how this would actually work with the limits of the Cant - Calling works with a known location and translocating is limited to line-of-sight. Not sure how to reconcile those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 translocating is limited to line-of-sight. Not sure how to reconcile those. The first time Kellhus uses the Cant of Transposition isn't he in a cave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 It's technically limited to as far as the horizon; it's not indicated that it is limited to what you can actually see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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