Madness Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Oh, gods. This thread is turning into an Erratic. It has been Erratic... this place is trauma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 UnJon here—you could not pronounce his name—is our elju . . . our ‘book,’ you would say in your tongue. A most devoted animal. We’d be wrecked without him—for a time, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 It has been Erratic... this place is trauma.Which makes you wonder why you come here. Do you post to remember? To cause suffering so others will remember? It's a very odd internet thing in general that people post in places that they loathe. I'm no exception to that. It's just an odd observation - why do people bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Oh, gods. This thread is turning into an Erratic. What did you expect when you have one thread to discuss a whole series, its author, and its fans? On the other hand, having an entire forum just seems too much. Aurang, when possessing Esmi, uses a spell to make Kellhus obsessed about fucking her body. Kellhus realizes what is happening and uses a "Dara Ward" to stop any such magic from affecting him. Damn... I've been meaning to do a reread of the first trilogy, but every time I start I find Bakker's treatment of Serwe just too painful to read through so I stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 - Inchoroi/Werigda (most graphic - Valrissa is possibly compulsed by sorcery, definitely by Inchoroi genotypic-variation) The underlined part is interesting to me because there's no reason to think the Inchies had pheromones tailored to human women when they crashed. Yet the thought they'd risk grafting procedures to produce said pheromones also seems off. Damn... I've been meaning to do a reread of the first trilogy, but every time I start I find Bakker's treatment of Serwe just too painful to read through so I stop. Well the possession of Esmi happens in TTT so Serwe's dead by then. I think HE largely hit the nail on the head when he noted that Serwe is how the majority of downtrodden women in such a brutal would think about themselves. Bakker's point was to show that the idea of people magically pulling themselves up by their bootstraps is fatally flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Also, in erratic navel gazing, this is still the funniest thing. I think HE largely hit the nail on the head when he noted that Serwe is how the majority of downtrodden women in such a brutal would think about themselves. Bakker's point was to show that the idea of people magically pulling themselves up by their bootstraps is fatally flawed.That's probably fair, but it doesn't make it particularly easy to read. It's an interesting point if he would have been more successful if more of the women were like Serwe and less like Esmi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Also, in erratic navel gazing, this is still the funniest thing. That's probably fair, but it doesn't make it particularly easy to read. It's an interesting point if he would have been more successful if more of the women were like Serwe and less like Esmi. Don't they each make up about 33% of the female population? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I think having more than one Serwe would make the book feel like torture porn. I do wonder if we might've had a character who does manage to eek out a living independently - like say a camp follower witch who hides under the shadow of the Spires. Showing how much an independent existence hinges on chance and birth into the proper caste might have better illustrated this point, but to make this plot relevant would likely have to make the first trilogy four books. And to some extent you get this with Esmi marrying Kellhus. I still think Kellhus degrading himself sexually before Leweth would have balanced out some of the criticisms about gender roles in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madness Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Which makes you wonder why you come here. Do you post to remember? To cause suffering so others will remember? It's a very odd internet thing in general that people post in places that they loathe. I'm no exception to that. It's just an odd observation - why do people bother? Simply to save those souls who may be saved. Offer evident witness of the madness here. But never to be understood. Not in this place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I think having more than one Serwe would make the book feel like torture porn. Maybe. One of the things that differentiates Handmaid's tale from Bakker's work (aside from, ya know, everything) is that Atwood at no time tries to make any characters look like they're awesome. The misogyny and oppression harms everyone - men and women. The thing that still stands out for me in that book is the reaction of the driver (a guy) to the touch of a woman in a nonsexual way - how it's so very clear that he's been deprived just as much as she has in this emotional and physical connection. Everyone - from the lord of the house, the lady of the house, the handmaid, the driver, the dancers, everyone - it all sucks for all of them. No one gets to have an awesome life. And in that, it does feel like torture porn in some way - it's hard to read. But it's also clear that no one is going to want to be any of these people. I think that's what makes it a feminist staple - the point that inequality harms everyone, not just women. (This is also a central part of Lolita - that the pedophile gets what he thinks he wants and it ends up ruining him as well as everyone around him. It's not a happy ending.) Whereas in Earwa many people think the Dunyain are fucking awesome. Or think Akka's having a pretty sweet time of it, what with banging 20 year olds when he's 60 and killing dragons and going on revenge fantasies. Sure, it sucks for being a woman, but being a man is pretty sweet. Hell, lots of people think Cnaiur - a guy who chopped a kid's fingers off and threw them at the kid's dad - is a pretty cool guy. There are lots of other reasons that it doesn't work that are captured in those threads before, but I think a big one is that women get the short end of the stick but men get to largely be awesomed. Don't they each make up about 33% of the female population? I have to admit, I loled Simply to save those souls who may be saved. Offer evident witness of the madness here. But never to be understood. Not in this place. Can you write off internet crucifixion as as charitable contribution on your taxes in Canada? Because if you can, you're sitting on a gold mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Simply to save those souls who may be saved. Offer evident witness of the madness here. But never to be understood. Not in this place. Careful honey, trying a bit too hard for that Oscar. ;-P I think a big one is that women get the short end of the stick but men get to largely be awesomed. I'd agree with this. I think part of the challenge is trying to make a successful epic fantasy without some wish fulfillment is really hard. Mieville sort of manages to puncture that bubble better than Bakker though PSS's grimness felt forced by the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Whereas in Earwa many people think the Dunyain are fucking awesome. Or think Akka's having a pretty sweet time of it, what with banging 20 year olds when he's 60 and killing dragons and going on revenge fantasies. Sure, it sucks for being a woman, but being a man is pretty sweet. Hell, lots of people think Cnaiur - a guy who chopped a kid's fingers off and threw them at the kid's dad - is a pretty cool guy. There are lots of other reasons that it doesn't work that are captured in those threads before, but I think a big one is that women get the short end of the stick but men get to largely be awesomed. IDK, at some point you have to ask where audience tastes come in. Who wants to be Cnaiur? Who wants to be a Scylvendi? They're horrible, horrible people and Cnaiur shows just what happens when you deviate by even a single percentage point. He's a completely broken person. I totally understand wanting him to kill Kellhus (which might dilute the hate) but the only way you can root for him and ignore the huge ball of pain at his core is to go:"Badass barbarian dude, RAR!!". How else can you look at that guy and think his society is anything but a repressive nightmare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 IDK, at some point you have to ask where audience tastes come in. Who wants to be Cnaiur?That's fair, but evidence is that there are those who do want to be him - at least judging from the fanstuff. Or at least see him as their favorite character. And has been pointed out, cheered when Cnaiur raped Conphas. Maybe that's the real triumph - that Bakker has managed to show a whole lot of real people as having some really fucked up wish fulfillment. We're not supposed to be aghast just at Cnaiur and Kellhus and Akka - we're supposed to be aghast at those who think they're awesome and make their handles and quotes after them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Who wants to be Cnaiur? I do. Man, life would be so much more interesting if I were Cnaiur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I do. Man, life would be so much more interesting if I were Cnaiur. Do you think you'd stick to one forum name if you were Scylvendi? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 If I were Scylvendi maybe. But not if I were Cnaiur. Trackless steppe, all paths equal, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 That's fair, but evidence is that there are those who do want to be him - at least judging from the fanstuff. Or at least see him as their favorite character. And has been pointed out, cheered when Cnaiur raped Conphas. Maybe that's the real triumph - that Bakker has managed to show a whole lot of real people as having some really fucked up wish fulfillment. We're not supposed to be aghast just at Cnaiur and Kellhus and Akka - we're supposed to be aghast at those who think they're awesome and make their handles and quotes after them. Mhm,I think this is going to happen to any even slightly morally ambiguous work tbh. Some people don't even see the writers point but I imagine that most of these sorts don't care at all. It's not like people like Walter White or Don Draper haven't had their fair share of fans. The only question is whether the author did a good enough job that anyone looking at the character beyond how awesome some of their actions are would see the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 That's fair, but evidence is that there are those who do want to be him - at least judging from the fanstuff. Or at least see him as their favorite character. And has been pointed out, cheered when Cnaiur raped Conphas. Maybe that's the real triumph - that Bakker has managed to show a whole lot of real people as having some really fucked up wish fulfillment. We're not supposed to be aghast just at Cnaiur and Kellhus and Akka - we're supposed to be aghast at those who think they're awesome and make their handles and quotes after them. I think that is the point, to make the wish fulfillment sort of a scylla for the reader; the wish fulfillment typical of the genre tropes does not feel so good because of the sharp, stinging teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Off-topic but is the phrase 'death came swirling down' supposed to mean something literal? Is there a God of death in Earwa who literally 'swirls' down whenever large groups of people die together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 in keeping with a premodern pagan reading being developed hereinabove, we might take all prosopopeia literally, including DCSD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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