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Bakker XXIII: Priapic Godlings and Whoresome Folks


lokisnow

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Why did Moenghus leave Ishual? I know this answer has been given somewhere by RSB, but a reference or link would be greatly appreciated.

Working on the assumption that the story we are given by Kellhus is incorrect? I would assume it has to be. The Dunyain banish him according to Kell, but we have seen that they really have no emotional compunction against killing defectives... so if they really just wanted to stop his corruption, they would likely have killed him. I don't recall what I've seen as to other motives other than what we're given however.

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Working on the assumption that the story we are given by Kellhus is incorrect? I would assume it has to be. The Dunyain banish him according to Kell, but we have seen that they really have no emotional compunction against killing defectives... so if they really just wanted to stop his corruption, they would likely have killed him. I don't recall what I've seen as to other motives other than what we're given however.

do you have a reference for that? I vaguely recollected that he been sent foraging/exploring and vanished, but that could be wrong.

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That begs two questions if the story is true:

1. What was the explanation among the Dunyain elders as to how Moe was able to communicate if they supposedly had no knowledge of magic?

2. If simply leaving the immediate environs of Ishuäl is enough to corrupt a Dunyain (at least in the eyes of the Elders) - and I have no doubt this is reasonable, given Kell's reaction to leaving Ishuäl - then have they been exiling various Dunyain throughout their history? I mean, surely this wasn't the first time in 2000 years that Sranc managed to stumble across Ishuäl.

I don't think it's logically inconsistent for them to exile Moe rather than kill him. If they truly view him as corrupted, then it is safer to simply close the gates behind him than to let him back in even just to kill him.

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Moenghus was sent out to kill some Sranc who had found the valley of Ishuäl. Having finished that task, he was not readmitted to the Dunyain, because he was viewed as infected.

So says Kellhus to Cnaiur...

1. What was the explanation among the Dunyain elders as to how Moe was able to communicate if they supposedly had no knowledge of magic?

Rather than debate this, everyone receiving Dreams - everyone Moenghus knew before he left - willingly committed suicide in the Thousand Thousand Halls.

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We don't neccessarily know how wel... Portable, the IF is. It might very well simply be impractical to use it to show any great number of people. (or hard to move around etc.)

like a nuclear reactor or something in the inchie ship, or something?

Assuming it does what it says on the label, maybe they are worried overusing it will drain the battery like it did with their weapons of light.

After all what they are interested in is their damnation, and whether this has changed. So when they pull off the depopulation, and the world is sealed, I guess the IF would show nothing when they check it. Or it would stop working because Inward and Outward are now distinct.

Hmmm....does depopulation Earwa disenchant the Universe?

It's the holodeck, running some Inchoroi equivalent of that 120 days of Sodom movie, on repeat.

And the batteries in the remote control died 5.000 years ago.

Heheheheh.

"Damn it Aurax, you fucking spooged all over the fucking remote! Well we can't wash it so we're just going have to watch this from now on..."

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A Continuity Error or Something More?



1. Mimara realises Somandutta is a skinspy in Cil-Aujus. Then, she seemingly forgets until Soma has to reveal himself in order to save her from Sranc. She tells Akka at Fatwall and he confronts Soma but fails to kill him.



"Mimara,” a voice calls. “What's the matter, girl?” It's Somandutta, the one man here that she trusts, and only then because he is no man" (Kindle Location 6003, TJE)



"Then something impossible happens. Soma…Somehow before her, when he had stood behind. Somehow catching each raving creature in its instant" (Kindle Location 1448 WLW)

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again, so says Kellhus to cnaiur.

What did Kellhus think about it before he met Mek?

I'm paraphrasing but "all those his Father had polluted" is what Kellhus thinks on those Dunyain who go to kill themselves in response to Moenghus' Dreams.

Kellhus doesn't actually say this to anyone, we have it from his POV.

"Mimara,” a voice calls. “What's the matter, girl?” It's Somandutta, the one man here that she trusts, and only then because he is no man" (Kindle Location 6003, TJE)

I always figured this was commentary on his effeminacy and how he's not behaving towards her as all the other men are.

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I always figured this was commentary on his effeminacy and how he's not behaving towards her as all the other men are.

I had originally interpreted this as Soma secretly being a eunuch, which kind of made some sense given his behavior, but then when he turned out to be a skin-spy it kinda threw that idea out of whack. I'm still not sure what Bakker was going for with that line.

It's interesting that before this thread I never considered all the comments about the whore of fate to be anything but an expression but you know, you are probably right.

The question for me is, why? What does Anagke gain from helping Achamian?

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I'm paraphrasing but "all those his Father had polluted" is what Kellhus thinks on those Dunyain who go to kill themselves in response to Moenghus' Dreams.

Kellhus doesn't actually say this to anyone, we have it from his POV.

I only found it weird that Kellhus hadn't considered the possibility that the dreams were sorcerous since there was no other explanation, or did he?

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Distant figures filed between the battlements before disappearing behind stone—the elder Dünyain abandoning their vigil. They would wind down the mighty staircases, Kellhus knew, and one by one enter the darkness of the Thousand Thousand Halls, the great Labyrinth that wheeled through the depths beneath Ishual. There they would die, as had been decided. All those his father had polluted.

This is not something Kellhus tells anybody, but told to us via the narrator. (In Kellhus’s POV, so maybe it could be argued that it’s the story that was fed to Kellhus.)
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I had originally interpreted this as Soma secretly being a eunuch, which kind of made some sense given his behavior, but then when he turned out to be a skin-spy it kinda threw that idea out of whack. I'm still not sure what Bakker was going for with that line.

The question for me is, why? What does Anagke gain from helping Achamian?

I never considered this possibility, but I still think continuity error the likeliest explanation. The other possibility that occurs is that Mimara has discovered that Soma is a skin-spy, perhaps because their conversations Cil-Aujis betrayed his absence of soul somehow or she saw him with her Judging Eye off-screen. On what basis would she conclude he was a eunuch?

Either Anagke is playing the role of Nemesis and using Akka as a tool in a bid to counter Kel's mortal Hubris or as the Goddess of Fate she resents a mortal hand (Kelhus) governing the destinies of Mankind or she is using Akka as a tool to counter the designs of the other Gods seeking to thwart Kellhus.

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Can anyone think of any reason, if Kellhus wished to kill them, why Fanayal and Meppa would manage to survive twenty years?



I don't ask this question as a way to raise the "Kellhus intends to destroy the New Empire" theory, particularly, I'm genuinely curious. Is there any other possible explanation?



A propos the discussion on the last thread re the existence of more children of Anasurimbor Moenghus the evidence we have is that apart from Esmenet no other woman in the Three Seas with a similarly high native intellect was able to successfully carry Kellhus' seed to term. Since the Big Moe's ability to find suitable women as Mallahet would be a lot more limited, I think that's a pretty sound reason for Maithanet being the only viable child.


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Can anyone think of any reason, if Kellhus wished to kill them, why Fanayal and Meppa would manage to survive twenty years?

I don't ask this question as a way to raise the "Kellhus intends to destroy the New Empire" theory, particularly, I'm genuinely curious. Is there any other possible explanation?

A propos the discussion on the last thread re the existence of more children of Anasurimbor Moenghus the evidence we have is that apart from Esmenet no other woman in the Three Seas with a similarly high native intellect was able to successfully carry Kellhus' seed to term. Since the Big Moe's ability to find suitable women as Mallahet would be a lot more limited, I think that's a pretty sound reason for Maithanet being the only viable child.

And he's certainly more viable than pretty much any of Kellhus' children. It does lend the question of just who exactly was Maithanet's mother? Why would Moe not have multiple children from her?

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Can anyone think of any reason, if Kellhus wished to kill them, why Fanayal and Meppa would manage to survive twenty years?

I don't ask this question as a way to raise the "Kellhus intends to destroy the New Empire" theory, particularly, I'm genuinely curious. Is there any other possible explanation?

In my opinion, the answer is always, "It's all part of the plan." I really do think that virtually everything happening in the second series is accounted for and/or directly instigated by Kellhus. It's all part of his goal to reach the Absolute (which is, in-and-of-itself, wrapped up with many other seemingly unrelated goals). Kellhus saw the Shortest Path to reaching the Absolute when he was on the Circumfix. Everything since then has been about him walking that path.

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And he's certainly more viable than pretty much any of Kellhus' children. It does lend the question of just who exactly was Maithanet's mother? Why would Moe not have multiple children from her?

We don't know that he didn't. I have been expecting Maithanet's brother or sister to show up since TJE, and I haven't given up yet. I think that Fanayal being a Moe plant (just like Maithanet was) is more likely than Meppa=Moe. Although I'll admit there isn't much to support that other than "it's possible, and Dunyain always dominate circumstances".

On what basis would she conclude he was a eunuch?

I assumed that it was because he wasn't shooting her lustful glances all the time like all of the other soldiers. Several times she comments on being aware of these kind of looks, and it is reasonable that if Soma wasn't doing that, that she could deduce he was either gay or a eunuch.

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