Lord Varys Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Paxter and his fleet are doomed with or without Aurane's help. Since the App we know that Euron has indeed captured Pyat Pree and his warlocks, which means that he controls (or is in league with) some rather powerful sorcerers. And sorcery could be quite handy in a naval battle if the sorcerers can create ... storms. George has repeatedly said that magic is going to become ever more prominent as the series progresses. This should eventually also be shown in a thing as mundane as a battle. Dragonbinder's magic is still an open riddle. To smear blood on it to make work makes little sense, as this would be far too easy. But even if it worked that way, I don't think Euron has to succeed if he had already smeared his blood on it, as Moqorro certainly could find a way to neutralize previously smeared on blood - no one assumes, I think, that Dragonbinder is a new magic which has never been used before... The other question is whether the horn can be used with 'common blood' or whether it only works with 'special blood' (i.e. Valyrian dragonlord blood). If we assume a magic horn like Dragonbinder was not the original magical tool the Valyrians used to bind themselves to their dragons, but rather a device they created to steal or enslave dragons claimed by other dragonlords, one should assume that there were safeguards to prevent 'lesser men' from using such devices against the dragonlords and their dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNorthmen Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I think Qyburn is LFs....The message to Catelyn and not Ned from Lysa...Whom was in cohorts with LF as was revealed upon his arrival to the Vale. If Qyburn is tied to the message left in Maester Luwens study through the box, a similar one sent to Doran. Then it would indicate Qyburn worked for Lysa/LF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Re Stannis/Aurane: If there is one claimaint that most decidedly does NOT need more ships, it's Stannis. Not only does he have Salladhor Saan, but he's also allied with the Iron Bank of Braavos. He's also the man who cut off Davos's fingers for smuggling food to him during a siege and thus saving his life - he's not going to look kindly on a thief, traitor and a pirate.You just described Shalladhor, who by the way, left Stannis's service. With the fleet Wyman has jammed up the Whit Knife and the backing of the Iron Bank, I agree that Stannis will not be too forgiving of Aurane unless Aurane can convince him that he was playing Cersei on his behalf the whole time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Stannis's own claim to the throne, and Robert's before him, comes through his Targaryen grandmother. The conquest argument is BS, because Robert was chosen, of the allies who fought Aerys, precisely because because he had the better claim - ie. Targ ancestry.Velaryons are the family that inter-married most often over generations with the Targs. They have huge amounts of female line Targ blood which gives them as much of a claim of Dragonstone as Robert had of the Throne itself, via the female line.As for your claims on Manderly - there is not the slightest guarantee at this point that Manderly will side with Stannis. He is as much of a wild card as Aurane. So your claim that Stannis has options is based on assumptions. We don't know if he will in the end. Manderly may have quite a different agenda.Finally, Stannis has a very solid record of rewarding people who have served him well. Aurane, if he shows up with the Royal Fleet and maybe even a collection of Golden Company sellswords who were dropped on the Stepstones, will have done just that. Davos had no claim on anything and was made Lord of Rainwood. Contrary to what you say, a Velaryon bastard does have a vague and remote claim on Dragonstone, and may prove to have been loyal to Stannis all along, finally bringing him significant help in a moment of need.That's pretty much based on two passages, right? Where Robert tells the Ned that he shoulda been king and the Ned responds that Robert had a better claim, and where Renly says something, Oh there was talk about Targaryen blood on our mother's side..., right? I know your assumption is valid, but I've always doubted it. I think Robert was The Man, and the talk about Targaryen heritage was used only to support it. No matter how you slice it, Robbert was a usurper who seized the throne by force of arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 That's interesting and well thought out. I only disagree about Qyburn. He really serves Cersei, IMO. His advice might not always be sound, but so what? The guy is Dr Franknestein, his primary specialty is not political advice, where would he have developped the expertise? With Vargo Hoat? Why I believe he is what he seems is that his trajectory is too random to be that of a planted spy. Expelled from the citadel, he worked with the brave companion. Because Jaime got his hand chopped, Roose had him care for the injury and accompany to King's Landing and further impredictible development got him on the council. And at no step is he the primary agent of his change in position. Vargo decided to chop Jaime's hand. Roose decided to send him to King's Landing. Oberyn used a wildly rare poison that gave Qyburn a chance to consult and interact with Cersei. Jaime decided to free Tyrion. Tyrion decided to murder Tywin. Without these events that he did not create or control, he does not rise. It's too random for a spy. Who would have recruited and developped Qyburn as a spy, thinking that this dishonoured maester serving the worst scum in Westeros was going to reach the small council (or anything of importance)? So I don't think he is a spy. But if he is, the one who controls him has already won the game of throne on account of being omniscient. I tend to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I think Qyburn is LFs....The message to Catelyn and not Ned from Lysa...Whom was in cohorts with LF as was revealed upon his arrival to the Vale. If Qyburn is tied to the message left in Maester Luwens study through the box, a similar one sent to Doran. Then it would indicate Qyburn worked for Lysa/LF. Um... I missed that... How exactly? Can you quote the text of that reveal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 The problem with Qyburn working for Doran is Ser Robert Strong.. why create the perfect warrior, if Doran wants to bring down the regime, unless Ser Robert Strong is destined to die in the Trial by combat,..Most of us believe he will win, therefore Cersei will be innocent of her crimes in the eyes of the faith, including the claim of her children being bastards. The only player that wants Cersei in place (for now) is Littlefinger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 The problem with Qyburn working for Doran is Ser Robert Strong.. why create the perfect warrior, if Doran wants to bring down the regime, unless Ser Robert Strong is destined to die in the Trial by combat,..Most of us believe he will win, therefore Cersei will be innocent of her crimes in the eyes of the faith, including the claim of her children being bastards. The only player that wants Cersei in place (for now) is Littlefinger. Who do you think is in control of Ser Robert Strong? Cersei or Qyburn ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maid So Fair Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 The problem with Qyburn working for Doran is Ser Robert Strong.. why create the perfect warrior, if Doran wants to bring down the regime, unless Ser Robert Strong is destined to die in the Trial by combat,..Most of us believe he will win, therefore Cersei will be innocent of her crimes in the eyes of the faith, including the claim of her children being bastards. The only player that wants Cersei in place (for now) is Littlefinger. I don't think this is actually true, but it's possible that the plan is for Gregor to be revealed, thus proving Cersei a liar and attempting to cheat at trial by combat likely means you lose regardless of whether or not you are guilty of other things. I mean adultery? Who cares? Here she is giving orders for freaking zombies to be made and appointing them to KG! Blasphemy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Who do you think is in control of Ser Robert Strong? Cersei or Qyburn ;) probably qyburn, but if so, then Cersei should lose her trial.. What reason Doran (if Qyburn is his creature) has to help her win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I don't think this is actually true, but it's possible that the plan is for Gregor to be revealed, thus proving Cersei a liar and attempting to cheat at trial by combat likely means you lose regardless of whether or not you are guilty of other things.I mean adultery? Who cares? Here she is giving orders for freaking zombies to be made and appointing them to KG! Blasphemy! Either way her kids lose the throne... cheating lossing it´s the same.. actually if she gets caught cheating the effect would be uncertain... better not risk it, and make her lose as hard as possible.. but no one actually believes thats going to happen,.. we all pretty much asume Ser Robert Strong it´s going to destroy the poor soul that has to face him. If we are right, then Qyburn can´t be Doran´s creature.. unless doran is actually hedging his bet.. keeping the lannisters in power, until Dany arrives. Worst case scenario, his son could be king consort (if tommen dies). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 probably qyburn, but if so, then Cersei should lose her trial.. What reason Doran (if Qyburn is his creature) has to help her win? Tyrells are not undone yet. Cersei has to take the Tyrells with her while going down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 This is silly. Ser Robert is (presumably) a rather unstoppable zombie. He could take out Mace, Cersei, Margaery, Tarly, Kevan, etc. in one swift stroke. And Doran has Qyburn, he would never return Myrcella to KL or send two of Sand Snakes there. He could act through Qyburn and take out the whole administration of King Tommen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 The mere existance of Ser Robert i think favors petyr´s 5 year strategy, even if there were no trial. Everyone will think he is Ser Gregor as soon as they see him.. House Martell´s expected reactiion would be to start conspiring (not open rebeliion) against the IT, and that would pay off at some future. they would feel cheated (as i expect the sand snakes to feel as soon as they arrive) Tyrells are not undone yet. Cersei has to take the Tyrells with her while going down. option a) There is no Robert Strong. Cersei losses her trial, she gets beheaded, Tommen and Myrcella are seen as bastards by the whole realm.What does House Tyrell do? they abandon tommen and Myrcella to the next claimant they choose to suport. option b) Robert Strong wins the trial, Cersei gets to keep her head. The Tyrells get to keep all the power..Just by having Cersei win, doens´t mean she will actually take down the tyrells with her.. in fact, i don´t see how they would allow her to stay in the KL if not as hostage to ensure the support of house lannnister.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 The problem with Qyburn working for Doran is Ser Robert Strong.. why create the perfect warrior, if Doran wants to bring down the regime, unless Ser Robert Strong is destined to die in the Trial by combat,..Most of us believe he will win, therefore Cersei will be innocent of her crimes in the eyes of the faith, including the claim of her children being bastards. The only player that wants Cersei in place (for now) is Littlefinger.You mean Varys, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 You mean Varys, no? No... Varys would want Cersei to lose the trial. Aegon is already in Westeros. If Tommen and Myrcella have no claim, only Stannis remains with a Baratheon claim..and no one wants stannis on the throne. the natural thing to do in that case would be for everyone else to side with Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinchanging Sweetrobin Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 The problem with Qyburn working for Doran is Ser Robert Strong.. why create the perfect warrior, if Doran wants to bring down the regime, unless Ser Robert Strong is destined to die in the Trial by combat,..Most of us believe he will win, therefore Cersei will be innocent of her crimes in the eyes of the faith, including the claim of her children being bastards. The only player that wants Cersei in place (for now) is Littlefinger. I think the big proof that Qyburn is Doran's is the Watcher chapter. Only two people know that the Mountain's head is a skull: Cersei and Qyburn. And when the head arrives, they put out candles expecting a rotting head. The Sand Snakes are shocked its a skull. But then, the desert comes out. Skulls. Doran knew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 No... Varys would want Cersei to lose the trial. Aegon is already in Westeros.If Tommen and Myrcella have no claim, only Stannis remains with a Baratheon claim..and no one wants stannis on the throne. the natural thing to do in that case would be for everyone else to side with Aegon.But Vary whacked Kevan to clear the way for Cersei's return to the regency, and Petyr suggested to Sansa that he was gonna remove Cersei from the board earlier than he expected. Until Aegon actually takes the throne, he benefits from having the nimconput calling the shots in King's Landing.someone else, say Kevan, Stannis, or even Mace would rule more wisely than Cersei, thus making Aegon's task more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I think the big proof that Qyburn is Doran's is the Watcher chapter. Only two people know that the Mountain's head is a skull: Cersei and Qyburn. And when the head arrives, they put out candles expecting a rotting head. The Sand Snakes are shocked its a skull. But then, the desert comes out. Skulls. Doran knew.Varys knows everything that happens in the Red Keep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I think the big proof that Qyburn is Doran's is the Watcher chapter. Only two people know that the Mountain's head is a skull: Cersei and Qyburn. And when the head arrives, they put out candles expecting a rotting head. The Sand Snakes are shocked its a skull. But then, the desert comes out. Skulls. Doran knew. nice catch, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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