R + L = Lightbringer -- Updated with Part II

[J. Stargaryen]

You are welcome, I always like reading your posts, even if I do not always agree. You are obviously a literacy scholar - which I am not, and your expertise as such often helps me to confirm, deny, or more often than not, redirect my gut 'reader' understanding.

As for the wink that Jon is not a bastard, my understanding is exactly that: Tyrion winks at the readers to say 'Jon is NOT a bastard' and for me this already implies he suspects (granted: he does not necessarily know for sure) Jon's parentage. Also, what strikes me about Tyrion after three readings of the series is not so much his knowledge about dragons but his knowledge about Targaryens history. Not much evidence in the series, granted, apart maybe from his non-acknowledging (POV-wise) of Dany or Aegon as legitimate Heirs for the Iron Throne.

I don't possess any expertise, just a keen interest in the series. Glad you enjoy my posts though. :)

I think the aforementioned wink and nod is for the benefit of the readers. I'm not aware of any indication that Tyrion has puzzled out Jon's true identity. Then again, I could see him putting it together. He's a smart guy.

[J. Stargaryen]

Regarding the skepticism about designating Jon as the "sun's son." If you buy the premise that Lyanna is a moon, then it's a small thematic leap to identify Rhaegar as the sun. Specifically, recall the story Doreah tells Dany in AGoT:

“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi,” the Lysene girl said. “Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.”
The two Dothraki girls giggled and laughed. “You are foolish strawhead slave,” Irri said. “Moon is no egg. Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known.”

- AGoT, Daenerys III

Bold = polygamy. Some of you might say, but Schmendrick already told us what this means. That the moons are Lyanna and Dany. Yes, that's true. But much like with the sun's son, where's it's Quentyn and Jon, the above passage conveys more than one piece of information.

[Warden of the Cheesy]

I don't have much to say, but I do have a few things here.

First off, you are obviously very well educated and did a lot of research. Props to you and it seems like I'm saying it more and more often, but props to J. Stargaryen as well. You did your stuff and I think that you raise a lot of valid point on the parallels between Jon's story arc and a myriad of different things.

I will state that I firmly believe in Jon as AAR. What you are saying makes sense. Rhaegar tried to "forge" lightbringer 3 times, twice with Elia and both times ultimately failed. The third, still yet to be seen, was Jon with Lyanna. That all makes sense.. Except for the fact that Rhaegar is dead, unless one is to believe that he will at least in some way be reborn?.. Could it be his ideals that are reborn? Maybe through Jaime? Or someone else? (Aegon if he is in fact real?) I can't fully judge this because it's missing details and maybe you will answer them in Part III (which undoubtedly I await eagerly). If Jon is LB, who is going to 'wield' him as AAR?.. Since Rhaegar "forged" him, the only conclusion I can draw is Rhaegar=AAR.. and that just doesn't appear to be all that likely. I think it's more of a question then anything. Who do you think it is? That is probably the burning question for me.

[Onna Lewyys]

Regarding the skepticism about designating Jon as the "sun's son." If you buy the premise that Lyanna is a moon, then it's a small thematic leap to identify Rhaegar as the sun. Specifically, recall the story Doreah tells Dany in AGoT: - AGoT, Daenerys III

Bold = polygamy. Some of you might say, but Schmendrick already told us what this means. That the moons are Lyanna and Dany. Yes, that's true. But much like with the sun's son, where's it's Quentyn and Jon, the above passage conveys more than one piece of information.

I'm not saying that you guys are wrong, but I think it's hard for me to accept because that is only one story. I feel like, if that were something Martin was going for, there should be a lot more imagery throughout the books relating Rhaegar to the sun. But it's possible that there is and I've just missed it.And perhaps Jo Maltese is on to something with the Apollo connection.

[J. Stargaryen]

I'm not saying that you guys are wrong, but I think it's hard for me to accept because that is only one story. I feel like, if that were something Martin was going for, there should be a lot more imagery throughout the books relating Rhaegar to the sun. But it's possible that there is and I've just missed it.And perhaps Jo Maltese is on to something with the Apollo connection.

From your previous post:

And I don't understand why all of Quaithe's other nicknames would be obvious (kraken, lion, griffin, etc.) but not that one.

I'd like to call attention to one of the Part II posts:

I’ve bolded the first item in each of the three pairs: kraken, lion, sun’s son. Taken together, I think they give us a hint about the three attempts to “forge” Lightbringer (first mentioned in ACoK, Davos I). Although not relevant here, I think the three non-bolded second items of each pair (dark flame, griffin, mummer's dragon) provide a pretty straightforward hint about (f)Aegon’s true heritage, just as Jon being the son of the sun and the moon is a hint about his true heritage. Many readers think that griffin and mummer's dragon both relate to (f)Aegon. If you read dark flame as having a secondary meaning of Blackfyre in addition to Moqorro ... you get three things that many people think relate to (f)Aegon.

So, while "dark flame" obviously refers to Moqorro, it also likely refers to Aegon Blackfyre.

[Schmendrick]

Hi folks. Thanks again for all the compliments. :blushing: :)

It looks like I may not have spent enough time on the Rhaegar/fire/sun thing in Part II. Most of that analysis will come in Part III, since it's directly related to my theory on Azor Ahai and the three heads of the dragon. Quentyn and and the Martell coat of arms will also make an appearance in Part III.

Going to continue to work through all the posts that I want to respond to. So many great ideas to address!

<Jon and Viserion>

I certainly can't rule out a Jon/Viserion match (and it's possible that Jon might skinchange into more than one dragon) but it's hard to ignore all of the Jon/Drogon connections. In addition to the Oathkeeper/Widow's Wail stuff that I wrote about in Part II, there are some other tidbits in the text that imo seem to be pointing to Drogon as the dragon for Jon. I'll cover those in Part III.

<Jon, Gram and Ghost>

I'll be spending some time on Gram in Part III also. I definitely think it's one of the legendary swords that most inspired Lightbringer. And I agree that there's a Ghost/Gram connection. It's pretty clever how George repeatedly likens Ghost to a weirwood tree in the text. For example:

And suddenly Ghost was back, stalking softly between two weirwoods. White fur and red eyes, Jon realized, disquieted. Like the trees …

AGoT, Jon VI.

And:

[Ghost] had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree.

ASoS, Jon XII.

If Jon does indeed warg into Ghost post-stabbing (a pretty safe bet) then he'll be a "sword" stuck in a "tree" just like Gram was. :p

I don't really see direct parallels with Martin as much as I see influences and inspiration. But that's my view on it, doesn't make it right. I find the parallels very interesting I will say that. But I can't get past the fact that the OP reads like the Da Vinci code and in turn the Da Vinci legacy. So I will leave you all to to it, but I pass on theory for now. It is very interesting but I worry about the parallel being to close and I don't see Martin doing that very often and nothing this big. Enjoy the theory french accent Donna Lewis, you are a very gracious and patient.

I'm honestly a bit confused about where you're seeing these direct parallels, but I'm certainly not suggesting any. I think Jon's "king's blood" is important, but I don't think he's the descendant of some sort of messiah figure or anything like that. I think instead of a magical sword, Lightbringer will turn out to be Jon + dragon. That may be partly inspired by Holy Blood, Holy Grail, but it's certainly not a direct parallel either. :dunno:

Interestingly, Dan Brown was sued by the authors of Holy Blood, Holy Grail AND the author of the Da Vinci Legacy over the "direct parallels" between his book The Da Vinci Code and their two books. He won both suits, but he did admit that he used Holy Blood, Holy Grail as an inspiration and a source of ideas for his books. So, at worst, George took some inspiration from the same source Dan Brown did. I really don't see what the problem is.

The biggest one is that I can't really reconcile the analogy for Quatihe's prophecy actually being about forging of the Lightbringer, even more specifically that Sun's son is Jon. Quentyn fits perfectly and there is no need to remove him from the equation, besides in my mind it even further degrades his POV chapters and GRRM's decision for overall inclusion in the story. To me the prophecy seems to concentrate on the events and players in Essos and Jon is nowhere near Essos as much as Dany is nowhere near Westeros.

I don't think Quaithe's warning to Dany is supposed to tell her anything about Lightbringer. I agree that the in-world purpose of the warning is to give Dany a straightforward don't trust any of these people message. All I'm suggesting is that, as a secondary function of the warning, George is putting in a literary clue for readers about Jon/Lightbringer and (f)Aegon.

As far as the prophecy/warning concentrating on the events and players in Essos, Jon Con and (f)Aegon are both in Westeros now, so unless they're coming back (or unless they aren't the griffin and the mummer's dragon), Dany will likely be meeting some of the people Quaithe mentions after she leaves Essos. Jon hasn't physically been in Essos like the rest, but his presence has been felt there in other ways, I think. I'll look at some of the strange (magical? literary?) connections between Dany and Jon in Part III.

Anyway, I'll be interested to hear what you think after seeing the rest of the Rhaegar/sun/fire stuff and the Quentyn/Martell coat of arms stuff in Part III. :)

Jon as the sun's son was my biggest question mark as well. But I do agree with him that whenever the prophecy seems obvious then you probably have the wrong answer. I also think that GRRM has put several repeating patterns in the story, so even if one answer is correct, it doesn't mean that the prophecy won't also stand for additional revelations later on. And at some point though I do think the events in Essos and the events north of the neck are going to intersect

Agreed.

Also, lots of things have multiple meanings. So, it's still true that Quentyn went to Dany, but it's also true that Jon could be described as the sun's son.

Exactly.

Wow! Congratulations and thank you for these awsome posts!!

I just wanted to say that in the comparison of the dark grey and blood red steel on Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail to Jon's dark grey eyes, I think Ghost's red eyes could also be included, since Jon can also see trough them :-) The steel color matches the union of Jon and Ghost eye color!

In an earlier part of one of the passages I quoted above (ASoS, Jon XII), George compares Ghost's eyes to "two great red suns." After the rise of Zoroastrianism in ancient Persia, when Mithra was no longer considered to actually be the sun, it was said that the sun was not only Mithra's friend but also his eye.

One last passing thought: Your interpretation of Jon as Mithras works very well... but in Bran's early chapters in AGoT (particularly Bran II and III), we get another Mithras-like figure: Jaime. In Bran II, Jaime tells Bran to take [his] hand while Bran III describes Jaime as glowing like the sun. You mentioned that the second forging of Lightbringer resulted in a split, and used Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper in that regard... in some ways, we also see a split between Jaime and Tyrion, the two (male) lions, since the end of ASoS. I'm not really getting to any conclusions here yet, it's just the start of another idea about all of this, of course ;)

I definitely agree that Jaime is called to mind when looking at the Mithras stuff. I didn't spend much time on it in Part II, but you may recall that after Zoroastrianism became the dominant religion in Persia/Iran, Mithras was no longer considered the sun himself. I briefly mentioned the story about Mithras and the sun initially being enemies who later became fast friends in Part II. I think it's interesting in light of the Jon/Mithras and Jaime/sun parallels. Plus, there are all sorts of strange connections between Jaime and Jon in the text. I look at all of this in greater detail in Part III.

As far as Jaime pushing Bran ... remember how Cat tells Jon that it should have been him? ;)

I actually cut a couple of paragraphs from the end of Part II where I discussed the Tyrion/Jaime split because they worked better with the material in Part III. I think there's definitely something there.

The OP's talk of the Mithraic sacrifice of the White Bull brings the following passage from ADWD to mind:

Great catch.

Now lets go to Jons last conversation with Samwell. Almost their entire conversation is in both AFFC and ADWD. I am sure there is more to that what I have gleaned, but what about "dragonsteel"? If dragonsteel is simply another term for valyrian steel, Jon now bears one. Dragon blade and Jon. Also dragonsteel could have a double meaning as well with lightbringer being a literal dragon.

My analysis of dragonsteel is something else that I cut from Part II because it fit better in Part III. I agree with you that there's a double meaning there.

As for Rhaegar = the Sun, his name evokes Râ, the Egyptian sun divinity ....

I wish I knew more about Egyptian mythology. There are some potential references to gods like Ra, Osiris and Horus in the books, but I don't have the depth of knowledge to properly analyse them. One of these days, I'm going to start doing some research in that department.

Jon and Corn King

Jon Snow - Corn King - John Barleycorn: Jon has a ranger called Tom Barleycorn. He takes Tom as an escort in taking the new recruits to the sacred weirwood grove where they find Wun Wun and his folk. That was an interesting journey with interesting types of people.

Moon and Andromeda

GRRM associated Val with the moon heavily in ADwD. As for the Andromeda, I think Shireen is a likely candidate. Jon may save her from burning and break her chains, even marry her eventually. That makes him both Aegon the Conqueror and Orys Baratheon. Orys married the daughter of the last Storm King who is Stannis in this case.

You make a lot of good and interesting observations, but I wanted to address these two in particular.

The John Barleycorn thing is definitely interesting. I've been wondering for a while if maybe that was one of the inspirations for Jon's name (along with John Doe). There's also this:

“All the wealth o’ the wildlings,” said The Norrey. “That should buy you a bushel o’ barleycorn. Two bushels, might be.”

ADwD, Jon XI.

This is part of a conversation about the wildlings turning over all of their treasures to help pay for their food. One chapter later, we get the corn king reference. Two chapters later, Jon is lying bleeding in the snow.

Also, you're definitely right about Val and the moon. I look at the Val/moon stuff in Part III.

Also, don't forget, Tyrion has a distinctive facial scar of his own. Hmmmm, Jon has the facial scar and the burned hand. Victarion has the burned hand, while Tyrion has the facial scar.

No comment ... until Part III. :)

But seriously, though, very nice observation.

In reference to "Mithras sees all" I would like to add this about Ghost from Bran I, A Game of Thrones:

"His eyes were as red as the blood of the ragged man who had died that morning. Bran thought it curious that this pup alone would have opened his eyes while the others were still blind."

Good catch. This is a quote I use in Part III.

Interestingly, I just finished B. Cornwell's 'The Winter King' - first book in his Arthur trilogy - and was so struck by some of the thematic similarities (Arthur is the bastard son of Uther Pendragon, etc) that I had to check to see that aGoT and tWK were published within months of each other. The Mithras cult is also featured in tWK, so the connections in the aSoIaF series are quite intriguing.

I've been meaning to read that one for a while. I didn't realize the cult of Mithras was in it. I'm going to have to put it to the top of my reading list. :)

.....

Have a good night, everyone! I'm going to try to catch up the rest of the way on responding to everyone's posts tomorrow. :)

[Jô Maltese]

(...)

I certainly can't rule out a Jon/Viserion match (and it's possible that Jon might skinchange into more than one dragon) but it's hard to ignore all of the Jon/Drogon connections. In addition to the Oathkeeper/Widow's Wail stuff that I wrote about in Part II, there are some other tidbits in the text that imo seem to be pointing to Drogon as the dragon for Jon. I'll cover those in Part III.

(...)

Moreover, Viserion is almost certainly going to be tamed by Tyrion IMO. There is an excellent thread making this point by Paper Waver, here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102076-danys-dragonriders-tyrion-viserion-and-victarion-rhaegal/

To convince yourself just look at Viserion's birth description:

A chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, (...)

!

[FrozenFire3]

Such a comprehensive analysis :bowdown:

Your in-depth search for parallels with ancient Greek and Middle East mythology&lore is what these boards were lacking. I've always felt a strong Classical resonance in AsoIaF, both in terms of recurring themes, 'climate' and structure. My inner classicist rejoices LOL

I'll need a bit of time to fully process everything... In the meantime, I have to admit your Drogon-as-the-flame prediction has given me quite the pause. In the past I speculated the 'chosen one' could be Viserion, due to a certain recurring colour palette that seems to link Jon, Rhaegar and the white dragon but your take is very intriguing indeed. You could also find interesting this little contribution about ravens, dragons and... the Sun God ;)

Btw one of the epithets of Apollo is 'lyceus' which has a dual root: luke meaning 'light' and lukos meaning... 'wolf'.

[Paeon]

OP was amazing! Thank you for the great read, I will be looking forward to the next part.

I always thought that the AA story was almost an allegory for the first birth of dragons (Lightbringer) but I love how you found very strong evidence to include Jon, as how can a weapon be useful if it cannot be guided?

I had a thought regarding part 1 and Nissa Nissa. You made it a point to expand on the "qualities" of Nissa Nissa that went into forging Lightbringer, specifically being "her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage". I believe it is indicative of a sacrifice which is more than what a regular mother would give her child. So in that sense, Lyanna gave more of herself to Jon almost exaggerating those qualities in Jon, but in doing so weakened her to the point of death.

Examining that notion, GRRM repeatedly reminds us how Jon's Stark features are so typical it is almost exaggerated, an exaggeration of his "Stark Blood" from his mother. He is honorable almost to the point that it can be annoying (soul), he is remarked to be a great swordsman, even better than his brother (Strength), and his courage has been on display for us through his entire story arc.

I'm sorry for not using quotes, I am on a bit of a time crunch at the moment. But some examples of the above (IIRC).

Blood: When Tyrion notes that he is more stark than his brothers. When Catelyn notes the same in jealousy (well that he looked more like Ned). I believe he was also immediately pegged for a Stark by Mace but I haven't read that part of the book in years.

Soul: Very difficult for him to make any choice which he feels may have a wrong connotation. Immediately latches to the weak Sam and protects him (Lyanna and Howland Reed anyone?)

Strength: I am sure there is more but his martial prowess comes to mind immediately.

Courage: Way too much here for me to even give examples, he is a born commander and does not shy away from adversity.

Also as a side note, this can be compared to Melisandre as she specifically notes drawing off "Strength" from Stannis and uses that to create the shadow babies. While her birthing sequence is similar in ritual to that of Nissa Nissa, she did not have to sacrifice any part of herself as she took it from Stannis in the first place. And it is obviously not a real baby so consider it almost an embodiment of Stannis' strength without anything else from him or Melisandre. She also recognizes that he no longer has the strength to continue to create shadow babies further providing evidence that there is some finite amount of these "qualities" in which it can be dangerous to exhaust (=death).

It also may be possible that Rhaegar attempted this with his first two children which would explain Elia's difficulty with recovering from childbirth. It would also explain why he eventually sought after Lyanna as Elia could not provide him the "third head of the dragon". Rhaegar may have realized this when unlike Rhaenys, Aegon was born with Targ features (said to take after his father).

Again I am sorry for not using quotes and I hope I didn't misrepresent anything from the novels. Hopefully I will have the opportunity to come back and edit the post at some point today.

[Onna Lewyys]

snip

I think those are lovely ideas. It goes along with Tyrion's very ironic thought: "Whoever his mother had been, she left little of herself in her son." No, she left everything of herself in her son! Of course, Tyrion was referring to his appearance, but it works in the deeper ways you've highlighted too.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Reserved for Part III.

Wow - didn't realize I'd missed this thread... very sorry to have arrived late to the party! But I've got to agree with everyone else: Very nice, Schmendrick. I'm impressed. Particularly appreciate the your write up re the Mithras connections. And the way you tie passages together using Martin's repetition of word choice. (I must ask: is this part of the same theory you were working on way back in November, when we looked at Wreathings, Writhings, and Nimbus(es)?)

I'll continue to look this over - there's a lot to consider - and I'm looking forward to Part III. I will say, however, that I have some reservation about the ease with which "Jon-symbolism" and "Lyanna-symbolism" appears to get "read into" storylines and character POVs in which they otherwise play no part. Not just in your theory, but in general among theories posted to the forums. And I'm not saying it's impossible that such symbolism is there, or that it never happens, because obviously GRRM is working to bring his storylines together and works with particular themes. But that is sort of my point: there are multiple storylines, multiple protagonists and many characters who are significant in their own right. I disagree (and you might as well, Schmendrick - I don't mean to put words in your mouth, er... post) that these books are entirely about Jon, Lyanna, and Rhaegar - even assuming that R+L=J is correct. But there is a tendency sometimes for R+L=J enthusiasm to color the reading of all texts, even when it might not make for a particularly strong reading. And I do see some of that here - much more in Part II than in Part I.

(For example, I cringed a little bit when the observation that Lyanna is "tied to moon imagery" led to the later claim that the "[moon] language" in one of Tyrion's ADWD chapters "slyly points at Lyanna." First because I'm not sure you presented much direct evidence connecting Lyanna herself with the moon. But mainly because in that last claim a character and a larger symbol are conflated to the point of being confused, one for the other - and I'm not sure that works. Lyanna is a specific character, with a particular role and particular relationships of her own; while the moon is such a universally recognized presence that each POV is capable of assigning to it its own particular relevance and meaning. George is still writing, so it's not impossible that Lyanna and Tyrion become more connected - but so far, I struggle to see how Lyanna herself has anything to do with Tyrion's storyline, or why the moon from Tyrion's point of view should be particularly representative of Lyanna.)

Anyway. Not meaning to criticize too much here. But in general, I want more evidence for directly connecting Lyanna to Tyrion's storyline (or Jon to Victarion's) than I would for connecting, say, Lyanna to Arya (or even Dany to Tyrion, since the halfman is seeking her out).

Great work, Schmendrick! Looking forward to Part III! :cheers:

[Frey family reunion]

The Perseus connection helps to explain this otherwise completely random line from Lord Commander Mormont:

Quote

I know that Mormont likes to start drinking a little early in the day, but even so, why the crap would he ask Jon about a winged horse? It comes completely out of nowhere. There’s no context for it. It’s an all-around awkward moment. Either Mormont had a few too many beers with his breakfast, or George is shoehorning in a reference to Pegasus, Perseus’ famous winged horse. As an aside, Mithras was said to hold the constellation Ursa Major (the Great Bear) in his hand for a time before killing the white bull; a possible initial inspiration for the Old Bear, LC Mormont.

Just to add to the parallels of Dany and Jon, here's the following quote from AGOT:

As she (Dany) turned to ride back, a firepit loomed agead, directly in her path. They were hemmed in on either side, with no room to stop. A daring she had never known filled Daenerys then, and she gave the filly her head.

The silver horse leapt the flames as if she had wings.

Also in a way Daenerys origins parallel Perseus even more closely than Jon, after she and her mother were cast out into the oceans, where they were then brought into Braavos by the loyal Willem Darry.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Not only do I agree with your notion that there are multiple candidates for AAR, my guess is multiple people will fulfill the role.

Where did Martin come up with the name of Azor Ahai?

In your initial post you mentioned the Zoroastrianism, the ancient Iranian religion that was the model for the R'holor religion. Azar was the Zoroastrian name for flame. Today, Azar is the Iranian name for the ninth month of the year (November), the month which immediately precedes winter. My guess is Azor was intentionally used by GRRM as a one off on Azar.

Ahai was a Jewish sage in the Babylonian Talmud.

So we put the two words together and we get a scholar of flame.

We know the Azor Ahai of legend created a magical weapon that produced a great fire.

Both Aegon V and Rhaegar seemed to fulfill this role as both were great scholars who were interested in fulfilling ancient prophecies involving bring back "The dragon" of legend as well as actual dragons.

Dany seems to fulfill the role, through some kind of subconscious knowledge she was able to hatch her dragon eggs.

I think another potential candidate is Tyrion. Certainly reborn in smoke and salt (look at his role in the battle of the Blackwater and his subsequent near death experience among the fiery waters). He has also proved to be a knowledgeable scholar in the ways of dragons as well.

And certainly there are other potential candidates as well. Perhaps, Davos, or Jaime?

My guess is AAR will be the one (or ones) that will somehow make use of (or perhaps unite with) Jon in his role as "Lightbringer".

Another interesting question that I hope you will attempt to address in this thread, is what does it mean to be "Lightbringer"? Does it have to do with Jon's unique skills as someone with a Targaryen bloodline who also happens to be a Warg?

And of course there is also the interesting idea of "Lightbringer" as something sinister. After all, wasn't Lucifer the "Lightbringer" as well? And Satan was also referred to as a dragon in Revelations.

I agree with many of your points here, FFR. Particularly the idea that multiple characters fulfill the prophecies Martin has laid out - not just AAR, but Lightbringer, the PTWP, and others as well. Tyrion is a prime candidate for AAR, in my mind, as there is intense foreshadowing of his role being that of possible king and savior of Westeros, starting in the first chapter of ADWD. And I was also going to point out the Lightbringing = "Lucifer" connection, until I saw it in your post.

There is another layer of interpretation, not addressed in the OP, that dovetails nicely in some ways with the connections to Mithraism and Avestan/Vedic traditions - and that is a botanical/horticultural layer of meaning and metaphor. Mainly having to do with apples. I've explored it some in Heresy threads along the way - but hadn't specifically considered a "Lightbringer" tie-in, until now. It might work, though - in at least one sense, being that apples are associated with knowledge, and Maester Aemon makes a point of telling Jon that knowledge can be a valuable weapon.

[Paeon]

I think those are lovely ideas. It goes along with Tyrion's very ironic thought: "Whoever his mother had been, she left little of herself in her son." No, she left everything of herself in her son! Of course, Tyrion was referring to his appearance, but it works in the deeper ways you've highlighted too.

Ahh that quote is perfect. I love the irony in the statement and it goes along very well with the point I was trying to make.

[furiousmoose0]

I agree with many of your points here. Particularly the idea that multiple characters fulfill the prophecies Martin has laid out - not just AAR, but Lightbringer, the PTWP, and others as well. Tyrion is a prime candidate for AAR

Hasn't GRRM already told us via the song that AAR and TPTWP are the same? I know Mel describes Stannis as both. So, at least in her mind they are one and the same. She only calls him TPTWP once (in Davos' last chapter in ASOS), and I kind of think thats GRRM's way of telling us they are the same person. She is the only person I can recall who refers to both of the prophecies, and she claims them to be Stannis. I do believe they are one person, but that person isn't Stannis. I really have a hard time believing that Tyrion is the answer to any sort of prophecy. He isn't a warrior, be has proved that he is clever enough to outsmart his enemy, but he only has the goal of retaining his birthright. All he wants in all of this is whats rightfully his (And killing off his siblings). I think that having three dragons is a red herring. Just because they exist doesnt mean they have to have riders. Rheagon and Viserion are currently a "Free City's" worst nightmare, and their "mother" doesn't seem to care too much about their plight. That being said, am I the only one who think that Drogon just decides he doesnt care and flies away?

[Jô Maltese]

[Aemon, Samwell POV, aFfC] It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. (...) he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet.

[benerro through Haldon's report and Tyrion's POV, aDwD] Her coming is a fulfilment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt she was born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned.

[Melissandre, through Jon's POV, aDwD] I have (...) read of it in an ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

[Mel to Stannis] You are he who must stand against the Other [=AAR].The one whose coming was prophesied 5000 years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you.

As I said above, the PTWP and AAR are the same entity. It is known.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

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As I said above, the PTWP and AAR are the same entity. It is known.

Or at least... Melisandre, Aemon, and Rhaegar seem to think they are the same. Though when you look at it... Aemon actually implies that the Valyrian word for "prince/princess" is the same word for "dragon" - thus the mistranslation, since dragons "are neither male nor female," but now one and then the other. And if that's the case, then Melisandre's statement that AA shall be "born again to wake dragons out of stone" seems rather redundant. Surely she would phrase it differently if she knew that "the prince" and "the dragon" were the same thing.

And if AA and the "dragon[] from stone" are different, then I'm pretty sure Jon is not AA. Because Jon is about to be one of those dragons from stone. (Which agrees with Schmendrick's OP, since he differentiates between AA and Lightbringer.)

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ETA: Of course, if we allow that more than one character may fulfill the prophesied roles - then perhaps AA/PTWP are the same person in one storyline, and different people in another. Dany looks like a good fit for both, for instance - born of salt and smoke, wakes dragons from stone.

[Mithras]

On tPtwP and AAR, this is my latest post.

[Jô Maltese]

Something else to support the 'Sun's Son' idea. I have seen a few times on this forum that Jon's real first name could be Aemon... Again, this name evokes the Egyptian culture, with the cult of Ammon Râ, both the Sun God and the Sun King (pharaoh).

[Mithras]

Something else to support the 'Sun's Son' idea. I have seen a few times on this forum that Jon's real first name could be Aemon... Again, this name evokes the Egyptian culture, with the cult of Ammon Râ, both the Sun God and the Sun King (pharaoh).

That is interesting because Sam-Gilly-Mance's baby look like a rework of Rhaegar-Lyanna-Jon. They named the baby Aemon Battleborn (ToJ?), Aemon Steelsong (obvious sword reference). There are some interesting dreams of Jon about them which are easy to miss at first sight.

Last night he had dreamed of Sam drowning, of Ygritte dying with his arrow in her (it had not been his arrow, but in his dreams it always was), of Gilly weeping tears of blood.

Ghost slept at the foot of the bed that night, and for once Jon did not dream he was a wolf. Even so, he slept fitfully, tossing for hours before sliding down into a nightmare. Gilly was in it, weeping, pleading with him to leave her babes alone, but he ripped the children from her arms and hacked their heads off, then swapped the heads around and told her to sew them back in place.

“Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.