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R + L = Lightbringer -- Updated with Part II


Schmendrick

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I think you're absolutely right about the Bloodraven. The stuff about Jon's eyes in Part II is leading up to a connection with Bloodraven, Bran and others that I'll be making in Part III.

I've been really into Bloodraven now since I finished reading The Mystery Knight a few weeks ago, and I remembered Schmendrick responding thus when I said the Mithra(s) "myriad/ten thousand eyes" thing reminded me of Bloodraven.

Anyone want to try brainstorming some possible connections wrt this theory? I was thinking, for one thing, Bloodraven and Ghost are both albinos. But what could that mean in the larger picture?

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I've been really into Bloodraven now since I finished reading The Mystery Knight a few weeks ago, and I remembered Schmendrick responding thus when I said the Mithra(s) "myriad/ten thousand eyes" thing reminded me of Bloodraven.

Anyone want to try brainstorming some possible connections wrt this theory? I was thinking, for one thing, Bloodraven and Ghost are both albinos. But what could that mean in the larger picture?

It could have something to do with the greenseer ability. Jon's first time warging with ghost, he met Bran in a weirwood tree. The greenseer's abilities are very extensive I think. BR states that the trees are the first step to controlling his ability, and I think he eludes to the possibility that it extends to much more than just the weirwoods. Definitely in line with the ten thousand eyes of Mithra. The albino factor is interesting too. Ghost was the runt when he was born but grew faster than the others and was also the first to open his eyes (another nod to the seeing ability).

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uuuuuh, lightbringer is Bran,


the tool that's being crafted to mess with physics and spur change from within the interstices of space. "Let there be light? Okay, let me concentrate on that real hard, sensei, and I'll make you proud."



And who wields Bran?



Let me ask this again, to give it time to sink in.




Who already wields Bran? (that's right. Hodor is "barely there" mentally because he's the spirit of AA who's had to rudely shove his way back into this world from purgatory to keep his appointment with destiny). Summer will have to be sacrificed to bring back the Summer, because the Summer that barks is clogging up Bran's phone line to the gods so he can't call them to demand the Summer that warms the earth. Bran will have to hang up on Summer to clear bandwidth for his great endeavor of bringing another Summer--warming the world by getting in touch with physics and speaking the language of universal love by taking the warmth within his heart and cannibalizing it into a spell-based broadcast of love for all living things---this spark of magically infused love transmutes into Light. The local star is the big papa glass candle, and once it's reinvigorated by Bran with that spark-spell, it'll flash into new brilliance so that the winter fades and the seasons lose their severity.



It is not known.


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I love how this whole theory is propagated on utterly ignoring the very specific 3 part forging process legend of Lightbringer; Mainly because its to vague still, and while the lion's heart could clearly mean a Lannister, nobody knows of a parallel to draw between the 30 days and nights before tempering it in water or one for a potential Nissa Nissa, and people think they're supposed to be able to figure out the whole series after 5 books so they come up with these metaphors. Why would GRRM otherwise give such a specific backstory and legend to Azor Ahais forging of Lightbringer? That legend is really the most we actually even know of AA and what its meaningless?


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nobody knows of a parallel to draw between the 30 days and nights before tempering it in water or one for a potential Nissa Nissa

Ummm... many options have been put forth for both of those.

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I love how this whole theory is propagated on utterly ignoring the very specific 3 part forging process legend of Lightbringer; Mainly because its to vague still, and while the lion's heart could clearly mean a Lannister, nobody knows of a parallel to draw between the 30 days and nights before tempering it in water or one for a potential Nissa Nissa, and people think they're supposed to be able to figure out the whole series after 5 books so they come up with these metaphors. Why would GRRM otherwise give such a specific backstory and legend to Azor Ahais forging of Lightbringer? That legend is really the most we actually even know of AA and what its meaningless?

I don't think there needs to be a direct literal in text parallel. Myths grow over time and they become more mythic as a result--we don't know the history of the story. When it was first told it could have been 1 day and then 50 years later it became 10 days to the point where when Mel is telling it, it's 30 days because that's how she heard it, but it doesn't mean that's how it started. As the story grew in popularity and importance, the details changed in order to make AA seem more heroic and the tale more grandiose. I believe Schemendrik is focusing on the themes of the stories, not each tinly little nuance. I think the in text metaphors he found are fascinating.

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@Kienn respond to the whole thing or not at all

Umm ok.

I love how this whole theory is propagated on utterly ignoring the very specific 3 part forging process legend of Lightbringer; Mainly because its to vague still, and while the lion's heart could clearly mean a Lannister, nobody knows of a parallel to draw between the 30 days and nights before tempering it in water or one for a potential Nissa Nissa, and people think they're supposed to be able to figure out the whole series after 5 books so they come up with these metaphors. Why would GRRM otherwise give such a specific backstory and legend to Azor Ahais forging of Lightbringer? That legend is really the most we actually even know of AA and what its meaningless?

You claim this theory is ignoring that legend yet it doesn't... it's referenced and explained with respect to this theory quite clearly.

You mention a Lannister as a possible "lion"... good job, everyone does that, including this theory.

You claim no one has thought of anything for the water or Nissa Nissa steps - wrong, even this theory mentioned multiple interpretations for each.

GRRM could have many reasons to give such a specific backstory... many times specific literal stories are actually symbolic - as you yourself admitted for lannister = lion...

For some reason you think someone called the story meaningless... no clue why as I've now explained repeatedly in order to address every sentence of your nonsensical response.

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responding to Part I: the Burning of the Seven section--




What kind of sword is “alive?”

Large winged reptile. the only "sword" of destiny that makes sense as a game-changer here in a world so rife with special swords that no handheld blade stands out from the pack and no one person--lord or hero or champion--can make a difference against the dead coming in waves. the weapon that accomplished more than any other in history and was elevated to the core of their cultural mythos has to be a fire drake. the human body produces its own warmth, but not in any meaningful way in this battle for species survival---Jon is "always cold" at the wall. Now a dragon that produces its own warmth is producing something noteworthy enough to be made into a legend, because that's a lot more warmth we're talking about now. that's the sword you want to be swinging against the living Cold monsters. so what if no dragons were recorded in deep westeros history? neither was anything else--this is all pre-historic myth passed down to the early maesters' scribes. any person or blade can only accomplish so much; neither of those automatically stands out from all the other swords and people the way a dragon would.





Maiden lay athwart the Warrior in embrace... The Mother a longsword through her heart, alive with flame. The Father the first to fall. the hand of the Stranger blackened as the fingers fell away one by one.

Rheagar and Lyanna as Warrior-meets-Maiden, okay. but they aren't the whole equation--Rheagar never got to be a Father to Jon nor did Lyanna have a chance to play the Mother role. room should be made for other characters to represent those roles---with the common link between all of them being that they're all collateral damage from the forbidden love affair of R + L, the people who've since gotten killed in the present generation due to the ongoing consequences: I'd say Robert and Ned are the Fathers who from our perspective were the "first to fall." Ned was THE poster boy for Westerosi fatherhood and father-figure-nessity. Robert literally Fathered a nation of bastards. And they burned in real life thanks to Lyanna's choice to spurn Robert, which led to Robert obsessing, and putting up with that for years made Cersei so jealous and angry at Lyanna's family that Cersei was so easily moved to strike at Ned's Starks years later (and taught her crazy son to do the same). It's all a united firestorm of consequences these characters are trapped in, and the real life lords are burning up just like the bonfire of the gods at Dragonstone. Catelyn and Cersei served as our Mother figures, and burned similarly from the Ice & Fire chain of consequences. Cersei chose to fight a firy situation with fire of her own, and so remains alive as a burner, while Catelyn fought fire with the water of compassionate tears and died... until she found some fire of her own. Theon is the Stranger in their house whose flayed fingers are going bye-bye one by one like the flames took the Dragonstone statue's hand.




Re: Mel as Nissa


Melisandre is our poster girl for misguidedness in magical matters. My explanation for that is she's a dragon in human form, which would be a dazing and confusing experience. When magic left the world long ago, she chose (or was coerced by mages) to cling to life by phasing out her magic-dependent form and adopting a stepped-down human shape that could live on and ride out the magic drought until... a time of opportunity arose, such as now. This was her entering into a SLEEP-walking existence out of magical starvation, essentially hibernating as a human, so she woke like a Jane Doe with no memory, adrift in a new species' consciousness with only brief flashes of dragony awareness bleeding through (explaining the confused early memories she has of being found and made into a slave girl until her special talents were identified and she was able to live a more privileged life). it'd explain her misinterpretations (she's being flooded by dragonmagic instincts and then trying to apply them in human terms to the world of politics; her wires are crossed and understanding such visions would always be a stretch.) It'd explain her multiple magical disciplines because she's manifesting magic from the root source and isn't limited to devoting herself to only one brand name of magic like humans are. And it'd explain her shadow babies since dragons come from The Shadow and have that as part of their substance, as do her hybrid babies. Her succubus nature derives from how she attached herself to our species and its new-to-her manner of reproduction, with interesting results. With the return of magic, she's (subconsciously?) looking to unlock her dragony side from its humanform prison but her couplings with Stannis result in only shadowy negative-image entities because Stan's genes & blood don't contain the key to unlock (wake) the dragon in Melisandre. Jon is the one charged with WAKING THE SLEEPERS. So, basically, when she tries her succubus routine with Jon who does possess the Fire & Ice prereqs she's looking for from her Azor candidates, look out. That's when we'll see more than shadow emerge. She'll then be able to send all of her bright energies into the womb and give birth to....... her real self. Nissa dies in a pheonix fire.



This post was powered by 7 corndogs. One for each god. And of course, apologies to Schmendrick for posting in such a well reasoned out topic as this.


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Did the show just give a little nod to this theory??

During the climatic battle, when Jon was facing off against one big ass wildling, the wildling slammed Jon's head against an anvil and then threw him through the furnace of what appeared to be a smithy.

I don't really think so, but I did notice that the anvil was quickly followed by a hammer.

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Interesting theory... you know, the most I read the books the most I think Jon Snow is more a piece, an instrument that the players have to use.



The players in my mind are Daenerys, Melisandre, Varys, Doran... and for now is only Melisandre the one who is near...



I remember when Stannis and Mel spoke to him Stannis was clear enough in saying the boy he means to use him for his purposes. The purpose of Stannis at first is battling the Others and recovers the North.



When Melisandre asks the flames for AAR/Stannis the flames show her Jon Snow... maybe the flames are trying to tell her that she has Lightbringer right in front of her... of course she does not understand... how can a person be a sword!, that's nonsense.



If Jon is not dead anything can happen. But if he is dead :( then anything can happen also.



Still I think Daenerys is AA/TPTWP.


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Did the show just give a little nod to this theory??

During the climatic battle, when Jon was facing off against one big ass wildling, the wildling slammed Jon's head against an anvil and then threw him through the furnace of what appeared to be a smithy.

Yes it was definitely a nod.

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Did the show just give a little nod to this theory??

During the climatic battle, when Jon was facing off against one big ass wildling, the wildling slammed Jon's head against an anvil and then threw him through the furnace of what appeared to be a smithy.

I don't really think so, but I did notice that the anvil was quickly followed by a hammer.

But Jon didn't catch on fire, so he must be a Targ. Lol, couldn't resist.

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Yes it was definitely a nod.

Lol.

Don't get me wrong. It could be. It's just that I don't think we've seen much, if anything, in the show that could count as a nod to this theory. Which is why I think it's unlikely that it was. But I think it's funny that someone would consider it definitely a nod. Come on.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong though because I did think of this theory when I saw the anvil.

ETA: Okay, and now FrozenFire3 asked about the symbolism, so maybe you and FFR are correct and I was being too dismissive. Blah, what do I know. :P

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Lol.

Don't get me wrong. It could be. It's just that I don't think we've seen much, if anything, in the show that could count as a nod to this theory. Which is why I think it's unlikely that it was. But I think it's funny that someone would consider it definitely a nod. Come on.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong though because I did think of this theory when I saw the anvil.

ETA: Okay, and now FrozenFire3 asked about the symbolism, so maybe you and FFR are correct and I was being too dismissive. Blah, what do I know. :P

Let's say it's well worth a thought. It's not the first time showrunners connect R+L=J symbolisms to Lightbringer elements. The History&Lore segment of season 3 Blu-ray contains a very interesting snippet where the immolation of Nissa Nissa is visually linked to a rose shedding petals (here, starting at 2:25).

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