Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Schmendrick

R + L = Lightbringer -- Updated with Part II

Recommended Posts

The dragons being lightbringer just seem more likely to me. Maybe the original LB was a child but the dragons are also kind of children to Dany. I like Jon being LB but its the question of who AA is if Jon is LB. Can't be Rhaegar and no one else makes much sense..

In Part II, I talk about Dany and the dragons. There's definitely a connection between Jon, the dragons and Lightbringer (which makes Dany a prime candidate for AA). Speaking of which, I address the identity of AA in a few posts in this thread. Not sure if you caught the post directly above yours, but it explains why I don't think the question of AA's identity is a problem.

Great OP, even if I somewhat disagree with the thesis. Your essay is brilliantly put up and gives a lot of food for thought and enlightment on aSoIaF.

My main counter-argument is that I think it is now established that the PtwP and AA are the same person, a unique person... And that the PtwP is Jon (the "promised me Ned" R+L=J).

Therefore Jon will wield (and weld) LB... How could that be him?

Granted, LB is not necessarily a sword and can be a person or many persons:

- A popular theory (Apple Martini I think) is that LB is the whole NW, the sword in the darkness (...), the light that brings the dawn.

- Derived from this, an alternate possibility is that LB can be one NW member in particular, someone fully dedicated to his duty and able to bring light. Sam comes to mind, he is a somewhat Enlightened character ("Lumière" as in France XVIII Century) and as someone said it above, knowledge is a weapon.

- And of course Dany could fit the bill, with her obvious fire connection, but also as someone arriving from the East (sunrise brings light after the night...).

But my inner feeling is that LB will indeed be a sword (and no it won't be a penis!). I feel - through Ice and Dawn arcs in particular, that there is a kind of connection that must be established between a Valyrian Sword and its wielder (think Harry Potter and his wand) to make the most of it and therefore have it become a 'super weapon'. At present, Jon has not established this link with Longclaw... which is IMO 'connected' to Jorah Mormont as the true heir of Jeor. I can see the connection happening after a Nissa Nissa situation between Jorah and Dany. Something along the lines of Jorah (truly in love) killing Dany with Longclaw out of jealousy (of Jon? So Jon would kill Nissa Nissa in a way) and Jon somehow 'winning' the sword fair and square afterwards. Not much textual evidence to support this intuition, apart from Jeor's last wish (Jeor did want Longclaw to be returned to Jorah, he said so to Sam) or Dany's promise to Jorah to give him his sword back.

ETA: knowledge is a weapon.

I'm glad you liked the OP, even if you disagree. :)

I don't think it's been established that AA and the PtwP are the same person. Mel certainly thinks they are, but she thinks a lot of things that are wrong. I think that Lightbringer and tPtwP both refer to Jon. If we accept vision-Rhaegar's statement that "the song of Ice and Fire" belongs to tPtwP, then Jon-as-Lightbringer gives the "song" an added meaning that no other candidate can offer. After all, a "blade ha a song of its own." ASoS, Jon I. Jon obviously has Ice and Fire covered no matter what, and if he's both Lightbringer and the PtwP, he's got a sword-song too. And Jon is associated with the "song" of swords more than once in the books:

The courtyard rang to the song of swords.
Under black wool, boiled leather, and mail, sweat trickled icily down Jon’s chest as he pressed the attack.
AGoT, Jon III.

Not only do we have the "song of swords" wording to describe Jon fighting, we also have "sweat" (from body heat ... fire) "trickling icily." Jon, sword, song, ice and fire ... all in one place. Here's another one, Just after Jon goes berserk on Iron Emmett:
Iron Emmett pulled his battered helm off. “Was there some part of yield you could not comprehend, Lord Snow?” It was said amiably, though. Emmett was an amiable man, and he loved the song of swords.
ASoS, Jon XII

And my one more for good measure:
Prince Rhaegar’s prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it. Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance.”
ASoS, Dany IV

This statement is followed by "Arstan" telling Dany about the tourney at Harrenhal and Rhaegar crowning Lyanna (so Jon is all over the subtext). If you think about it, Rhaegar took up "the song of swords" (trained as a warrior) in order to help him fulfill the prophecy of tPtwP ... which allowed him to win the tourney and crown Lyanna ... which led to Jon.
By the way, Longclaw is more of a "super weapon" than first meets the eye. And Jon definitely has an unusual "link" to it. That's Part II material. ;)

I've also been working on this theory ( in my case it came from a mention of a NW=LB, and when i realised that Jon could well have been the 3rd child of Rhaegar Targaryen, when the first two had been "broken" and the 3rd's birth had led to the death of the mother, i got a shiver down my spine.) I also thought the NW oath "I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the wall. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn...."

Just to move on from "Needle was Jon Snow's smile", Jon gave somebody a sword, Needle to Arya. Needle's quite a distinctive sword. If somehow (and i know this is barking mad) Jon giving Arya Needle makes Needle Lightbringer, and Arya Azor Ahai. Nobody is quite as "reborn" as Arya (well, maybe Beric Dondarrion, but hey...) She's seen a great deal of smoke and salt, the House of Black and White and her trial of blindness could be passing under the shadow and well, give her time to work on the waking dragons stuff ok?

Arya for AA, she's got my vote!

Arya is definitely important. She gives off major "Last Hero 2.0" vibes for me, but that doesn't mean she can't be the one who ultimately "clasp" Lightbringer (imo).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<snip>

I think that "Lightbringer" was an epithet for one of the people who helped AA. Over time (we're talking about thousands and thousands of years), the legend of the person and the legend of the sword got conflated, and the sword came to be remembered as Lightbringer. It's not too hard to imagine how this could happen. There are people in the books who are colloquially referred to as swords, after all (like the "white swords" of the KG). If, 8,000 years in Westeros' future, some historian were to find a document from the current time in the books referring to a white sword slaying a monster, they might get confused, too. And that kind of thing is exactly what the authors of Holy Blood, Holy Grail claim happened with the Merovingian princes of France. Over time, their continued bloodline came to be conflated with a holy relic (the grail). Considering that George flat out said that the Cathar (the supposed keepers of the truth about the Merovingians) were one of his two inspirations for the Red Religion (through which we hear about Lightbringer), I think I'm on solid ground here.

My guess is that AA's only necessary if Jon chooses to side with him/her. :) Edit: In other words, I think that when Mel says "a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword .... and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again," she's making a prediction that the "warrior" will be AAR and not someone else (as in "the Superbowl will happen again next year ... and our team will win it"). Note that "clasp" is used to describe a handshake quite a bit in the books (more than once, a handshake between Jon and another party).

This clasping business is pretty interesting. Indeed, Jon "clasps" hands with several people, though the word is otherwise scarcely used in this manner throughout the series. And the way you're describing this AAr/LB partnership, I can't help but think of the king/Hand working relationship. Since, you know, there are lots and lots of hints that Jon was born a king, and/or will end up as one. In other words, a king needs a Hand and so does a sword; the king is a sword. In fact, I'd venture to guess that is exactly why GRRM created the office of Hand of the King and named it the way he did.

Speaking of the Jon + hand references, it's worth a quick mention that he was mentored by Qhorin Halfhand. Also, one can speculate as to the meaning of Jon's burnt hand. Perhaps it's a nod to his mad grandfather Aerys, who burnt one of his own Hands.

Maybe also worth mentioning is that Stannis was upset Robert didn't choose him to be Hand. Which is interesting when viewed through the lens of your analysis, where Hand of the King = Azor Ahai reborn. I'm not sure exactly how to read it, but there could well be some irony there.

Lastly, getting back to Jon grasping hands. I noticed that after clasping Tormund's hand Jon immediately thinks of the NW vow. And we all know how that goes. :)

Jon clasped the offered hand. The words of his oath rang through his head. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.

- ADwD, Jon XI

ETA: According to this theory, Jaime stands out to me as a potential AAr candidate. Either that, or maybe he's being set up as a red herring.

Aside from some Jaime-Last Hero connections I noticed a while back, Jaime says that he had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, who wielded a pretty special sword called Dawn.

You stupid girl, the queen thought, angry even now. Jaime does not even know you are alive. Back then her brother lived only for swords and dogs and horses... and for her, his twin.

- AFfC, Cersei VIII

“He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions.”

[...]

“One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it.”

- AGoT, Bran IV (Old Nan's Last Hero story)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<snip>

There's definitely something to the hand/Hand thing. I particularly like the way you equate the two ("a king needs a Hand and so does a sword; the king is a sword").

This bit of wisdom is courtesy of Littlefinger:

"They say the Hand dreams the king’s dreams, speaks with the king’s voice, and rules with the king’s sword."

AGoT, Eddard IV.

The bolded part really sells the connection for me.

I think Tyrion may have applied for the position in the chapter immediately following the above:

“Thank you, my lord of Lannister.” [Jon] pulled off his glove and offered his bare hand. “Friend.”

Tyrion found himself oddly touched. “Most of my kin are bastards,” he said with a wry smile, “but you’re the first I’ve had to friend.” He pulled a glove off with his teeth and clasped Snow by the hand, flesh against flesh. The boy’s grip was firm and strong.

When he had donned his glove again, Jon Snow turned abruptly and walked to the low, icy northern parapet. Beyond him the Wall fell away sharply; beyond him there was only the darkness and the wild. Tyrion followed him, and side by side they stood upon the edge of the world.

AGoT, Tyrion III.

This whole interaction feels like it's dripping with importance. Bad luck for Tyrion if he was actually hired, though, in light of Bowen Marsh and his cronies getting all stabby on Jon:

The king dies, Ned Stark thought, and the Hand is buried.

AGoT, Eddard XV.

Edit:

ETA: According to this theory, Jaime stands out to me as a potential AAr candidate. Either that, or he's being set up as a red herring.

Jaime is my front-runner (though I like Dany, Tyrion, and a few others for the job as well). I discuss what I like to think of as Jon and Jaime's "Cosmic Handshake of Doom" in part II. :p

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think GRRM likes to replicate some of his themes for various characters or events. What I mean by that?



e.g. Hammer and the Anvil



In the original battle, Maekar held his ground against a pressing army long enough so that Baelor Breakspear came with his forses to crush the enemy against the shieldwall of Maekar.



I can see GRRM will replicate (most of) the characteristic features of this batle in TWoW. Some will resemble more and some will less. The first one is obviously Battle at Meeren. Barristan himself said "Hammer and the Anvil" in his gift chapter from TWoW. The second one is when Euron attacks Oldtown coming down the Honeywine and the city barely holds its defenses until fAegon and JonCon arrives to crush the ironborn. Another one can happen at the Battle on Ice at the crofter's village.



e.g. Battle of Fair Isles



In the original battle, the IronFleet was trapped in the straits of Fair Isles from two sides and suffered a crushing defeat.



The crofter's village lies between two lakes, it looks like a strait. So the Battle on Ice can also resemble the Battle of Fair Isles too.



I think the Volantene Fleet coming to Meereen will be crushed exactly the same at the straits of Yaros by Victarion, thanks to the precise information supllied by Moqorro.



The point of these two examples is that I think GRRM revived the story of AA in several characters. Some resembles more, some resembles less.



For example, If we think of Dany through the AA myth, three trials to forge the LB mean the hatching of the three dragons. I think Tyrion will bond with Viserion (heart of a lion), Victarion will bond with Rhaegal (water) and these two will break some time, leaving Drogon which was due to the love of her heart (Drogo). I also think Jon will steal Drogon from Dany to prove his claim.



ETA: About the clasping of a sword



Longclaw was long for Jon. He had to grow up to wield and use it properly. A bastard sword for the bastard. Jon did good with it but he is not supposed to wield it. He is not a bastard in the first place. It was a temporary solution for him. So he must find his true sword. A sword lives and grows with him.



Way back in AGoT, we noted how close was Jon and Arya, they think the same, finish one's sentence with the same word. Such a good fitting between the two could mean a lot. Will Jon use Arya as his master of whisperers?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reserved for Part II.

I think we are all waiting for your part II... :drool: Off topic - Are you French (re. your Sang Real / Saint Gral knowledge)? I am.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, I'll have to read the OP again. Because when I posed that question about AA, I was under the impression that the theory was saying that AA was the one who forged LB (i.e. Jon's father, Rhaegar). But I see that's not the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Waiting for part 2...

For a moment there, seeing this thread up here again, I was also hoping that part 2 had been posted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry folks. Lost power for a while thanks to the lovely winter storms here in Northeastern USA. Part II is on its way, just a few days behind schedule. :)





I think we are all waiting for your part II... :drool: Off topic - Are you French (re. your Sang Real / Saint Gral knowledge)? I am.





I'm not, but I've visited before and had a great time. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry folks. Lost power for a while thanks to the lovely winter storms here in Northeastern USA. Part II is on its way, just a few days behind schedule. :)

I'm not, but I've visited before and had a great time. :)

It totally sucks to lose power. I hope part 2 comes soon. :hugs:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.”



It was the third time he had called her “boy.” “I’m a girl,” Arya objected.


“Boy, girl,” Syrio Forel said. “You are a sword, that is all.”



Aemon was right about how they were fooled with the language. Yet there is no reason to think that he reached the truth before he died. I think Jon is the prince that was promised and the Lightbringer at the same time. I also think that the bleeding star is no way a comet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.”

It was the third time he had called her “boy.” “I’m a girl,” Arya objected.

“Boy, girl,” Syrio Forel said. “You are a sword, that is all.”

Aemon was right about how they were fooled with the language. Yet there is no reason to think that he reached the truth before he died. I think Jon is the prince that was promised and the Lightbringer at the same time. I also think that the bleeding star is no way a comet.

So do you think AAR is the same as tPtwP? (I assume you do based upon your comments but just for clarity I thought I would ask)

Also I dont think the bleeding star is a normal comet but, if it isn't, at its base, a comet, what is it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So do you think AAR is the same as tPtwP? (I assume you do based upon your comments but just for clarity I thought I would ask)

Also I dont think the bleeding star is a normal comet but, if it isn't, at its base, a comet, what is it?

I think AAR and the tPtwP are not the same person.

That is one of the good alternatives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Definitely still coming. :) Sorry for the delay.



Hoping to have it done in a few days. It's coming along nicely. Going to be two or three times the size of Part I (which was really just the set up for this Part). There's so much to cover that I'll probably need a Part III also.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That night she lay upon her thin blanket on the hard ground, staring up at the great red comet. The comet was splendid and scary all at once. “The Red Sword,” the Bull named it; he claimed it looked like a sword, the blade still red-hot from the forge. When Arya squinted the right way she could see the sword too, only it wasn’t a new sword, it was Ice, her father’s greatsword, all ripply Valyrian steel, and the red was Lord Eddard’s blood on the blade after Ser Ilyn the King’s Justice had cut off his head. Yoren had made her look away when it happened, yet it seemed to her that the comet looked like Ice must have, after.



Maester Luwin did not think so. “Wolves often howl at the moon. These are howling at the comet. See how bright it is, Bran? Perchance they think it is the moon.”



When Bran repeated that to Osha, she laughed aloud. “Your wolves have more wit than your maester,” the wildling woman said. “They know truths the grey man has forgotten.” The way she said it made him shiver, and when he asked what the comet meant, she answered, “Blood and fire, boy, and nothing sweet.”


Bran asked Septon Chayle about the comet while they were sorting through some scrolls snatched from the library fire. “It is the sword that slays the season,” he replied, and soon after the white raven came from Oldtown bringing word of autumn, so doubtless he was right.



Though Old Nan did not think so, and she’d lived longer than any of them. “Dragons,” she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. “It be dragons, boy,” she insisted. Bran got no princes from Nan, no more than he ever had.



Septon Chayle's account is very interesting.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dont you think his account is the least credible? Every POV seems to have its own explaination for the comet. Its also said that it was for King Jeoffreys name day. Or a Lannister victory. Also a Stark victory. IMO the septon (since the seven have shown no ability whatsoever as far as gods go) is one of my last choices as an interpreter of signs. He could be right though. Especially if the seven do have power that we havent seen yet. It took four books for us to see the power of the old gods who is to say the seven arent real as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dont you think his account is the least credible? Every POV seems to have its own explaination for the comet. Its also said that it was for King Jeoffreys name day. Or a Lannister victory. Also a Stark victory. IMO the septon (since the seven have shown no ability whatsoever as far as gods go) is one of my last choices as an interpreter of signs. He could be right though. Especially if the seven do have power that we havent seen yet. It took four books for us to see the power of the old gods who is to say the seven arent real as well.

He was the keeper of the library of Winterfell at the same time. He looked like an intelligent and nice guy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×