R + L = Lightbringer -- Updated with Part II

[Schmendrick]

I have often thought the same thing after reading the D&E stories. Dragons are not pack animals by nature, unless mating I believe that they prefer to be alone or with their human. However, there always seems like in every instance we've seen, there's always one or two "true dragons" in every generation or so of Targaryens. Is this a trend, a coincidence, or what? If Faegon is the mummer's dragon, and Jon and Dany are left, who is the true dragon, or is there one?

On discussing "the dragon has three heads," there are, as discussed here, a multitude of "threes" that could fit, but my mind makes leaps to connect all the information we're presented into one. I'm not even sure where I am going with this, but I find it interesting that:

The dragon has three heads.

There are three dragons.

There are three Targaryen offspring (Jon, Dany, fAegon) surviving. Aerys and Rhaella had three children, as did Rhaegar.

There are three "corn king" types of figures mentioned in the books: the Last Hero, AA, and TPTWP.

You had discussed upthread about the dragons being hinted at and foreshadowed as Lightbringer throughout the story, and I agree with you. Previously I had thought that the dragons are Lightbringer, and that's been my sort-of headcanon for awhile. But if the dragon = Lightbringer and the dragon has three heads are those three heads, naturally, the LH, AA, and PTWP? and our three dragon riders as well?

I've had a lot of the same thoughts. There seems to be a lot of textual support for the notion that Dany either is, or more likely is in the process of becoming, a "true dragon." Rhaego may have been a future "true dragon," but we know how that went. If a "true dragon's" mantle can, in fact, be passed on to another, it's interesting to consider where Rhaego's mantle may have landed.

I think Aemon is another candidate for "true dragon" status. With his death, I wonder if his mantle will pass to another (Jon?).

And I agree that there seem to be a lot of threes. Dany even says something along the lines of "so many threes" when she's thinking back on her time in the HotU. The so-called "motif of three" is quite common in western folk tales. In fact, it's especially prevalent in some of the tales that the modern Beauty and the Beast story was synthesized from (and having worked on the show in the 80's, one imagines that George has read those folk tales). There are a lot of references and allusions to those old folk tales (as well as some of the ancient Greek legends that may have inspired them) in the books, most notably in Dany's chapters. One of these days, I'll get around to writing a post about all of that.

There are also a ton of threes in Zoroastrianism and other eastern religions.

In Zoroastrianism, Mithra is part of the the "Ahuric Triad," a grouping of three holy spirits. He's joined in the triad by Ahura Mazda (the highest spirit in Zoroastrianism) and Anahita. I look at this triad in Part III in my analysis of the three heads of the dragon. Anahita has some pretty striking parallels with Dany.

There's also the Hindu Trimurti, which I suspect may have been at least part of the inspiration for George's three-headed god Trios.

If that red part doesn't tie in with the Jon symbolism, I don't know what does... :)

You know ... I didn't pick up on that at all. Good eye. :)

The "myriad eyes/ten thousand eyes" part, though, makes me think more obviously of Bloodraven ("a thousand eyes and one"). I do think that Bloodraven is playing/going to play a significant role in what's happening at the Wall (Melisandre sees him & Bran in her fires, and there's the theory that Bloodraven has been warging Mormont's raven). And there's a chapter in ACOK where Jon has a (wolf) dream where he sees Bran bonded to a weirwood tree (as Bloodraven is teaching Bran to do now) and Bran tells Jon to open his third eye. I'm not sure how to relate it to the rest of the theory, but it's just something that struck me.

<snip>

More excellent Jon/sword connections too. I didn't even realize that he misquoted his own vow at that one point! And the Valyrian steel swords matching his description! I agree that Jon bonding with a dragon as the ultimate embodiment of LB makes perfect sense. It does seem that Targaryen blood plays a role in the bonding, as Brown Ben Plumm has Targaryen blood and Dany's dragons really like him. And I've long thought the "wake dragons from stone" part of the AA prophecy will have to do with Jon discovering his Targaryen heritage.

Like some others, though, I'm iffy about Jon as "the sun's son." I do see all the Lyanna/moon connections, but not so much Rhaegar/sun (at least not in the text itself). And I don't understand why all of Quaithe's other nicknames would be obvious (kraken, lion, griffin, etc.) but not that one.

I think you're absolutely right about the Bloodraven. The stuff about Jon's eyes in Part II is leading up to a connection with Bloodraven, Bran and others that I'll be making in Part III.

I also agree 100% about the stone dragons/Jon's heritage connection (although I also think it applies to Dany's literal dragons hatching from their petrified eggs). I'll have a whole section related to that in Part III.

As far as the Rhaegar/sun stuff ... fair enough. I'm getting the impression that I held too much of the support for that back for the next Part (since it's directly related to my Azor Ahai theory). I don't actually think it's as simple as Rhaegar = the sun. Azor Ahai is another component here (as he was in Part I, where Rhaegar seemed to play AA to Lyanna's Nissa Nissa). Hopefully this will make more sense when I post Part III. At some point I might write up a supplement to Part II in order to make my case for Jon as the sun's son a little cleaner. There's a fair amount of support that I cut in order to shorten Part II that it looks like I should have left in. :)

As far as the sun's son being the only not-so-obvious nickname ... I'm not saying that Quentyn is flat-out wrong. He still fits as a more obvious answer. I just think that, in addition to the straightforward in-world purpose of Quaithe's warning, George crafted Quaithe's wording in a way that also serves as a clue for readers about Jon and (f)Aegon. I'm not suggesting that Dany herself is supposed to take Quaithe's warning that way. I edited in a sentence about that in Part II, because looking back, I can see that I didn't make that clear enough.

Sounds a little like something Sam tells Jon in AGOT:

Yet another good catch.

As for the wink that Jon is not a bastard, my understanding is exactly that: Tyrion winks at the readers to say 'Jon is NOT a bastard' and for me this already implies he suspects (granted: he does not necessarily know for sure) Jon's parentage. Also, what strikes me about Tyrion after three readings of the series is not so much his knowledge about dragons but his knowledge about Targaryens history. Not much evidence in the series, granted, apart maybe from his non-acknowledging (POV-wise) of Dany or Aegon as legitimate Heirs for the Iron Throne.

Honestly, I don't get the sense that Tyrion suspects Jon's true parentage. But Jon and Tyrion's interactions do have a lot of clues about it in the subtext. And I think that Tyrion's advice to Jon about armoring himself in his bastardy is the beginning of a big series of clues about Jon's parentage and, potentially, his legitimacy.

The first thing is the Perseus analogy he's the son of the lord of the sky. Yet on an off note Jon's scared of heights. Could be a nod to Jon being afraid of his own nature.

<snip>

That's interesting. Do you recall where in the books it's said that Jon is afraid of heights?

I will state that I firmly believe in Jon as AAR. What you are saying makes sense. Rhaegar tried to "forge" lightbringer 3 times, twice with Elia and both times ultimately failed. The third, still yet to be seen, was Jon with Lyanna. That all makes sense.. Except for the fact that Rhaegar is dead, unless one is to believe that he will at least in some way be reborn?.. Could it be his ideals that are reborn? Maybe through Jaime? Or someone else? (Aegon if he is in fact real?) I can't fully judge this because it's missing details and maybe you will answer them in Part III (which undoubtedly I await eagerly). If Jon is LB, who is going to 'wield' him as AAR?.. Since Rhaegar "forged" him, the only conclusion I can draw is Rhaegar=AAR.. and that just doesn't appear to be all that likely. I think it's more of a question then anything. Who do you think it is? That is probably the burning question for me.

The Rhaegar/AAR thing is something I'll address directly in Part III. I'll also be spending a good amount of time on the question of who might "wield" Jon (and what that might mean).

I'll need a bit of time to fully process everything... In the meantime, I have to admit your Drogon-as-the-flame prediction has given me quite the pause. In the past I speculated the 'chosen one' could be Viserion, due to a certain recurring colour palette that seems to link Jon, Rhaegar and the white dragon but your take is very intriguing indeed. You could also find interesting this little contribution about ravens, dragons and... the Sun God ;)

Btw one of the epithets of Apollo is 'lyceus' which has a dual root: luke meaning 'light' and lukos meaning... 'wolf'.

Thanks for the links. You made some interesting connections in those posts that I hadn't seen before. :)

The Jon/Drogon foreshadowing in one of your linked posts is really great:

Here is another cookie, already posted in a related thread but quite relevant to R+L=J. It's more subtle than the Tristifer's sepulcher passage, nevertheless interesting for the peculiar wording:

ASoS, Samwell II

"Snow."
Sam glanced up at the sound. Lord Commander Mormont's raven was circling the fire, beating the air with wide black wings. (ed. same wording used for Drogon in ADwD during Dany's first flight)
"Snow," the bird cawed. "Snow, snow."

As you noted, the raven (which keeps cawing Jon's name) is described using the exact same wording as is used for Drogon.

<snip>

Very nice.

I think those are lovely ideas. It goes along with Tyrion's very ironic thought: "Whoever his mother had been, she left little of herself in her son." No, she left everything of herself in her son! Of course, Tyrion was referring to his appearance, but it works in the deeper ways you've highlighted too.

I love it.

<snip>

This isn't part of the same theory that I was working on regarding the wreath stuff, but I did draw on some of the research I was working on for that one (particularly the Frazer stuff) and I'll be drawing on more in Part III.

I'm very sensitive to the fact that there is sometimes a tendency to treat Jon as the center of the universe in analyzing the books. I don't think he is. I agree that there are plenty of "main characters" in the story. This thread is obviously very Jon-centric, but I could write volumes about the importance of Dany or Bran or Tyrion or Jaime or Arya, too (among others). And often times, there is foreshadowing or symbolism related to those characters in Jon's chapters, too (I'll be looking at some of the ways Dany and Jaime, in particular, make their presence felt in Jon's chapters in Part III). I think that's just how George does things. I don't think Jon is more important than the other characters I mentioned, but I do think that he will likely be the catalyst for some of those characters' stories to intersect. As I said in the introduction to Part I, if Jon is the blade, then he isn't the wielder. By the very nature of this theory, Jon's role is (at least in some ways) secondary to someone else's.

As far as the moon imagery ... I'm not suggesting that Lyanna = moon. I'm suggesting that Lyanna = one of the moons in Doreah's story, while Dany is the other. I think that some instances of moon imagery connect to Lyanna and Dany (or sometimes just one or the other). That story is about the return of dragons, which Tyrion is very much interested in. And Tyrion is on his way to Dany, the other moon, so there's the direct connection to Tyrion's arc. Also, Tyrion and Jon discuss both Jon's mother's identity specifically and his parentage generally more than once in AGoT, so it's not like Lyanna has never been invoked in a Tyrion chapter. :)

Just to add to the parallels of Dany and Jon, here's the following quote from AGOT:

Also in a way Daenerys origins parallel Perseus even more closely than Jon, after she and her mother were cast out into the oceans, where they were then brought into Braavos by the loyal Willem Darry.

In some ways it certainly does, I agree. And in other ways, Dany's arc parallels Perseus' mother. Both Dany and Danaë had children that were born after they had a supernatural interaction with a magical force (Danaë gave birth to Perseus after being visited by Zeus in the form of a shower of gold and Dany hatched her dragons after she "married" fire in the pyre).

[Paeon]

On tPtwP and AAR, this is my latest post.

Great summary. I would agree with how the two prophecies may have both been studied and compared by Melisandre.

It is also interesting that tPtwP prophecy may have been born out of the Valyrian version of AAR, which was a Freehold and had no King/ royal family. If the Valyrians held tPtwP as some type of messiah/ herald of doom figure, it very well may have been the reason why they were reluctant to establish a monarchy. TPtwP prophecy could have specified that the Prince would be of Valyrian descent so they may have feared bringing about the prophecy as it was associated with the return of the Long Night.

At some point Daenys the dreamer had a prophetic vision regarding the Doom of Valyria which prompted the Targaryens to flee to Dragon Stone. After the Doom, Aegon and his two sisters decided to conquer Westeros and finally establish a Monarchy.

My question would be, was Aegon trying to fulfill one role in tPtwP prophecy in his conquering of Westeros and establishing of a monarchy? Was the reason why he never showed interest in the actually governing of the realm--leaving it to his sisters (per GRRM reading of WoiaF)--because he established the monarchy out of what he thought was necessity? It just seems strange that after the Valyrian Freehold was destroyed, the Targaryens went west to establish a kingdom rather than another Freehold. However it makes sense if he believed the Long Night was on its way regardless of his actions after the Doom so he united Westeros as one kingdom in preparation and made it possible for a Valyrian prince to be born.

To try and get back on topic, being a "Prince" of Valyrian descent (or more specifically of Aegon's), Jon will fit the role of tPtwP. And going along with the OP he also fits the role of Lightbringer. However it does not seem like Jon is AAR as that role would have been fulfilled by Rhaeger. Which is an amazing twist to be honest, Maester Aemon commented on how Rhaegar and him were fools for thinking Rhaegar was tPtwP, but he was actually AAR!

[Mithras]

The John Barleycorn thing is definitely interesting. I've been wondering for a while if maybe that was one of the inspirations for Jon's name (along with John Doe). There's also this:

This is part of a conversation about the wildlings turning over all of their treasures to help pay for their food. One chapter later, we get the corn king reference. Two chapters later, Jon is lying bleeding in the snow.

The treasures of the wildlings are really odd.

As they passed, each warrior stripped off his treasures and tossed them into one of the carts that the stewards had placed before the gate. Amber pendants, golden torques, jeweled daggers, silver brooches set with gemstones, bracelets, rings, niello cups and golden goblets, warhorns and drinking horns, a green jade comb, a necklace of freshwater pearls … all yielded up and noted down by Bowen Marsh. One man surrendered a shirt of silver scales that had surely been made for some great lord. Another produced a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt.

And there were queerer things: a toy mammoth made of actual mammoth hair, an ivory phallus, a helm made from a unicorn’s head, complete with horn. How much food such things would buy in the Free Cities, Jon Snow could not begin to say.

All these things look like strange objects which are found in ancient tombs in real world. They can be offerings as well. This looks strikingly similar to a pagan sacrifice.

[furiousmoose0]

I think you're absolutely right about the Bloodraven. The stuff about Jon's eyes in Part II is leading up to a connection with Bloodraven, Bran and others that I'll be making in Part III.

I love how this theory keeps tying frays together. In Bran IV in aGoT, Old Nan tells the story of the last hero. It's a tale of the last Long Winter. The last hero sets out to find the CotF with "a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions" . Eventually, after years, he looses everything he set out with, and is getting hunted by the others with their spiders (not the first time in the series its mentioned that the others have spiders. I believe in Sam's report to Jon in aFfC, he says that he read they have them. I found it interesting that we haven't seen them yet). And then the story gets interrupted, and although Old Nan promises to tell the ending, we never hear it. Connection with Jon's future meetup?

[furiousmoose0]

You are welcome, I always like reading your posts, even if I do not always agree. You are obviously a literacy scholar - which I am not, and your expertise as such often helps me to confirm, deny, or more often than not, redirect my gut 'reader' understanding.

As for the wink that Jon is not a bastard, my understanding is exactly that: Tyrion winks at the readers to say 'Jon is NOT a bastard' and for me this already implies he suspects (granted: he does not necessarily know for sure) Jon's parentage. Also, what strikes me about Tyrion after three readings of the series is not so much his knowledge about dragons but his knowledge about Targaryens history. Not much evidence in the series, granted, apart maybe from his non-acknowledging (POV-wise) of Dany or Aegon as legitimate Heirs for the Iron Throne.

I think that's giving Tyrion a little too much credit. There isn't any reason for characters in the books to think that Jon Snow is anything more than Jon Snow. The reason we, as readers, can infer that is because of Ned's POV chapters in aGoT. There is a lot of evidence for that it the ensuing books, but since Ned and Howland are the only two privy to this information, I think it would be an incredibly "crackpot" conclusion to come to. Keep in mind he didn't come to the conclusion about (f)aegon on his own (at least IMO). The halfmeister told him. I think most people forget this. He is highly intelligent, (especially concerning dragons) clever, and intuitive, but above all he is logical. It's not logical to think that Jon Snow is a Targ. Just like it's not logical that young Griff would be Aegon (and I believe he has figured out that he is (f)Aegon, I don't think that he would have figured out that's who he was posing as on his own)

[Jô Maltese]

I think that's giving Tyrion a little too much credit. There isn't any reason for characters in the books to think that Jon Snow is anything more than Jon Snow. The reason we, as readers, can infer that is because of Ned's POV chapters in aGoT. There is a lot of evidence for that it the ensuing books, but since Ned and Howland are the only two privy to this information, I think it would be an incredibly "crackpot" conclusion to come to. Keep in mind he didn't come to the conclusion about (f)aegon on his own (at least IMO). The halfmeister told him. I think most people forget this. He is highly intelligent, (especially concerning dragons) clever, and intuitive, but above all he is logical. It's not logical to think that Jon Snow is a Targ. Just like it's not logical that young Griff would be Aegon (and I believe he has figured out that he is (f)Aegon, I don't think that he would have figured out that's who he was posing as on his own)

I disagree. I think it is extremely logical that R+L=J when you know your History of Westeros and when you are excellent at judging men (Rhaegar and Ned... and Jon in this instance). And Tyrion has all these qualities. I mean, come on, there is a war starting because a prince kidnapped a girl and her brother known for his sense of honour and integrity comes back with a baby and her corpse... I still wonder how the hell nobody has thought of J=R+L before (as I very early thought of it in my first reading)? On top of that, Tyrion is the only key player who has met Jon as a grown up, and yes, Tyrion has quickly guessed 'Aegon', then 'fAegon' with the same historical, physical and psychological clues. And for the same reasons, I tend to think that Varys also suspects Jon's parentage.

[furiousmoose0]

I disagree. I think it is extremely logical that R+L=J when you know your History of Westeros and when you are excellent at judging men (Rhaegar and Ned... and Jon in this instance). And Tyrion has all these qualities. I mean, come on, there is a war starting because a prince kidnapped a girl and her brother known for his sense of honour and integrity comes back with a baby and her corpse... I still wonder how the hell nobody has thought of J=R+L before (as I very early thought of it in my first reading)? On top of that, Tyrion is the only key player who has met Jon as a grown up, and yes, Tyrion has quickly guessed 'Aegon', then 'fAegon' with the same historical, physical and psychological clues. And for the same reasons, I tend to think that Varys also suspects Jon's parentage.

But Tyrion never met Rheagar or Lyanna and met Ned only once. I don't mean to take anything away from Tyrion, those are just conclusions that he simply does not have enough information to come to. Especially at the beginning of aGoT. He has never met Jon's assumed parents. He just met the only one who has claimed him. He doesnt know the ToJ took place, yet he presumes Jon is Rheagars get by Lyanna? No way. Thats completely void of logic. If R + L = J then only one person knows the truth. If anything Tyrion assumes that Jon is from Ashara.....that tale is known. And no Tyrion didnt "guess" it was Aegon fake or not. He was told by the halfmeaster......

[Jô Maltese]

?

[furiousmoose0]

?

Sorry using a phone mate lol

[Frey family reunion]

I wonder if the OP has given any thought about the story of Excalibur and whether that has any parallels to either Jon's arc, or as I may suspect the story arcs of Jaime, Davos, and Brienne?

[The guy from the Vale]

?

I think he means Tyrion has too little basis to base his judgement on. He doesn't know Ned, he didn't know Lyanna, and he was a small boy when Rhaegar died.

Moreover, the other (correct) point was that Tyrion did not guess fAegon's identity - he was told by Haldon as part of a bet that Haldon had lost.

[Jô Maltese]

I think he means Tyrion has too little basis to base his judgement on. He doesn't know Ned, he didn't know Lyanna, and he was a small boy when Rhaegar died.

Moreover, the other (correct) point was that Tyrion did not guess fAegon's identity - he was told by Haldon as part of a bet that Haldon had lost.

My '?' was following his initial empty post - then he edited it ;)

As for Haldon telling Tyrion about Aegon, he only confirmed what Tyrion had suspected for a while: they are a few hints before that he was putting it together ('Gryf' for Griffin, the purple eyes, the blue hair to hide a true silver colour etc). And later Tyrion reflects that Aegon looks younger than he should be... clearly implying that he is piecing up a fAegon hypothesis.

[Lady of Dragonstone]

I disagree. I think it is extremely logical that R+L=J when you know your History of Westeros and when you are excellent at judging men (Rhaegar and Ned... and Jon in this instance). And Tyrion has all these qualities. I mean, come on, there is a war starting because a prince kidnapped a girl and her brother known for his sense of honour and integrity comes back with a baby and her corpse... I still wonder how the hell nobody has thought of J=R+L before (as I very early thought of it in my first reading)? On top of that, Tyrion is the only key player who has met Jon as a grown up, and yes, Tyrion has quickly guessed 'Aegon', then 'fAegon' with the same historical, physical and psychological clues. And for the same reasons, I tend to think that Varys also suspects Jon's parentage.

Tyrion is a superior judge of men, and he is highly logical and intelligent. I have to agree with Jo Maltese that he suspects something about Jon's parentage. I don't think he has made the jump to Rhaegar and Lyanna, but I do have to say that knowing Tyrion as we do, it would be a bit OOC if he blindly accepted Ned for Jon's father. Also, his own niece and nephews are bastards with a secret parent.

I've had a lot of the same thoughts. There seems to be a lot of textual support for the notion that Dany either is, or more likely is in the process of becoming, a "true dragon." Rhaego may have been a future "true dragon," but we know how that went. If a "true dragon's" mantle can, in fact, be passed on to another, it's interesting to consider where Rhaego's mantle may have landed.

I think Aemon is another candidate for "true dragon" status. With his death, I wonder if his mantle will pass to another (Jon?).

And I agree that there seem to be a lot of threes. Dany even says something along the lines of "so many threes" when she's thinking back on her time in the HotU. The so-called "motif of three" is quite common in western folk tales. In fact, it's especially prevalent in some of the tales that the modern Beauty and the Beast story was synthesized from (and having worked on the show in the 80's, one imagines that George has read those folk tales). There are a lot of references and allusions to those old folk tales (as well as some of the ancient Greek legends that may have inspired them) in the books, most notably in Dany's chapters. One of these days, I'll get around to writing a post about all of that.

There are also a ton of threes in Zoroastrianism and other eastern religions.

In Zoroastrianism, Mithra is part of the the "Ahuric Triad," a grouping of three holy spirits. He's joined in the triad by Ahura Mazda (the highest spirit in Zoroastrianism) and Anahita. I look at this triad in Part III in my analysis of the three heads of the dragon. Anahita has some pretty striking parallels with Dany.

There's also the Hindu Trimurti, which I suspect may have been at least part of the inspiration for George's three-headed god Trios.

Yes, the dream that she has after Jorah tells her that Rhaegar was the "last dragon" is one. I'm not sure if the mantle of a true dragon is passed on via something akin to reincarnation, however. I always thought it was more like our genetics - some traits are recessive, some are dominant. There is the phrase about every time a Targaryen is born, the Gods flip a coin. I think this phrase can also be applied to being a "true dragon." Or perhaps, maybe that's what the phrase is really all about anyway.

Interesting how you bring up Aemon and his being a true dragon. Aemon could have been King, but he gave that right up when he took the black and chose to honor his vows as a Maester instead of taking power. I always loved the passage where Aemon tells Jon that he must make his choice as well, and I still believe that Jon will have to make the choice. I don't think that he has had to do that yet, fully. Yes, he chose to not be Lord of Winterfell, but if you believe R+L=J I think his choices only begin there. Also of interest, when Aemon abdicated the crown, it went instead to his younger brother, an Aegon.

[SerTonyStark]

I'm feeling pretty convinced by most of this. Excellent analysis even if it doesn't pan out.

[J. Stargaryen]

I noticed that some people were speculating that the name Rhaegar was inspired by the Egyptian god Ra. There may be some truth to that, but I think there is probably a different explanation, as well.

Rhaegar is pronounced Ray-gar, which means that Rhae is a valyrianized spelling of Ray. GRRM's father's name is Raymond Martin. :D So, Rhaegar rhymes with Ray-mar. What's funny is that when you realize this, it becomes almost obvious that GRRM used his father's name as inspiration more than once.

1) Rhaegar

2) Waymar Royce

3) Khal Rhae Mhar (Viserys – the Sorefoot King.)

One wonders if GRRM has memories of his father, a dock worker, coming home and complaining of sore feet. And, though GRRM claims to be most like Tyrion, we are all the hero of our own fantasies. If there is one main hero who stands out a little more than the rest it's Jon Snow. Who is Jon Snow's father? Ray-gar.

That said, I wouldn't necessarily ignore the connection between Rhaegar and Ra. GRRM says that fans are allowed to pronounce names the way they like. One of the reasons for this, he says, is that when he went to college he was told that he had been pronouncing words incorrectly. Who knows, maybe a young GRRM thought Amen Ra was pronounced like Aemon Ray. :)

[Schmendrick]

On tPtwP and AAR, this is my latest post.

I definitely agree with you that the prophecies may have been obscured or altered by age and repeated translation. I also wonder if they haven't been intentionally tampered with over the ages .... but that's another theory for another time.

Something else to support the 'Sun's Son' idea. I have seen a few times on this forum that Jon's real first name could be Aemon... Again, this name evokes the Egyptian culture, with the cult of Ammon Râ, both the Sun God and the Sun King (pharaoh).

Could be. Aemon is definitely my front-runner for Jon's "true" name. Here's an interesting potential connection between Ra and Jon:

In ancient Egypt, the dead were traditionally dressed with a wreath-crown called a Crown of Justification, representing triumph over death itself. The crown has obvious symbolic connections to Osiris, but it was also associated with the sun-crown of Ra, oftentimes being crafted to look like the rays of the sun were radiating from the deceased person's head. Interestingly, during the height of Roman influence in Egypt, roses were sometimes used to make the wreath-crown (so we have a potential connection to the wreath-crown of blue winter roses Rhaegar gave Lyanna).

This is one of those things I was researching for your thread on wreathings before I got sidetracked, The Snowfyre Chorus. :)

The treasures of the wildlings are really odd.

As they passed, each warrior stripped off his treasures and tossed them into one of the carts that the stewards had placed before the gate. Amber pendants, golden torques, jeweled daggers, silver brooches set with gemstones, bracelets, rings, niello cups and golden goblets, warhorns and drinking horns, a green jade comb, a necklace of freshwater pearls … all yielded up and noted down by Bowen Marsh. One man surrendered a shirt of silver scales that had surely been made for some great lord. Another produced a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt.

And there were queerer things: a toy mammoth made of actual mammoth hair, an ivory phallus, a helm made from a unicorn’s head, complete with horn. How much food such things would buy in the Free Cities, Jon Snow could not begin to say.

All these things look like strange objects which are found in ancient tombs in real world. They can be offerings as well. This looks strikingly similar to a pagan sacrifice.

That's a good point about the tombs. The wildlings were just rooting around in a bunch of ancient tombs, looking for the Horn of Winter, after all. Some of this "wealth" was no doubt acquired by grave-robbing. And you're absolutely right about the gifts looking like offerings as well. Very interesting catch.

The broken sword is an especially interesting "offering." In the same conversation where we get this line, about the wildlings turning over their offerings in exchange for food:

“All the wealth o’ the wildlings,” said The Norrey. “That should buy you a bushel o’ barleycorn. Two bushels, might be.”

ADwD, Jon XI.

... we also get this:

“Mance Rayder swore an oath as well,” Marsh went on. “He vowed to wear no crowns, take no wife, father no sons. Then he turned his cloak, did all those things, and led a fearsome host against the realm. It is the remnants of that host that waits beyond the Wall.”

“Broken remnants.”

“A broken sword can be reforged. A broken sword can kill.”

And then, in the very next chapter (the one you quoted from), the wildlings turn over, among other things, a "broken sword." All sorts of interesting subtext there.

I love how this theory keeps tying frays together. In Bran IV in aGoT, Old Nan tells the story of the last hero. It's a tale of the last Long Winter. The last hero sets out to find the CotF with "a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions" . Eventually, after years, he looses everything he set out with, and is getting hunted by the others with their spiders (not the first time in the series its mentioned that the others have spiders. I believe in Sam's report to Jon in aFfC, he says that he read they have them. I found it interesting that we haven't seen them yet). And then the story gets interrupted, and although Old Nan promises to tell the ending, we never hear it. Connection with Jon's future meetup?

Speaking of broken swords ... the Last Hero's blade was said to have frozen and "snapped" when he tried to use it. AGoT, Bran IV. It's not clear whether the blade that "snapped" was the same as the "dragonsteel" blade Sam associates with the Last Hero, or whether he acquired that sword later.

There's a passage later in the chapter where we first hear the story that implies that the CotF may have "saved" the Last Hero:

All Bran could think of was Old Nan’s story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds . He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. “The children will help him,” he blurted, “the children of the forest!”

The children saving the Last Hero after he made a long and perilous journey through the snow obviously parallels Bran's arc in significant ways, but there are also several things about Arya that have a very strong "Last Hero 2.0" vibe for me. It'll be interesting to see how that story connects to things in the books (assuming it does).

I wonder if the OP has given any thought about the story of Excalibur and whether that has any parallels to either Jon's arc, or as I may suspect the story arcs of Jaime, Davos, and Brienne?

The first draft of Part I began with this quote:

Peasant Woman: Well, how’d you become king, then?

[Angelic music begins to play]

King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. That is why I am your king.

Peasant Man: Listen, strange women lyin’ in ponds distributin’ swords is no basis for a system of government …. You can’t expect to wield supreme power just ‘cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!

Monty Python and the Holy Grail, 1975.

:P

Monty Python aside, Excalibur does come up in Part III.

Yes, the dream that she has after Jorah tells her that Rhaegar was the "last dragon" is one. I'm not sure if the mantle of a true dragon is passed on via something akin to reincarnation, however. I always thought it was more like our genetics - some traits are recessive, some are dominant. There is the phrase about every time a Targaryen is born, the Gods flip a coin. I think this phrase can also be applied to being a "true dragon." Or perhaps, maybe that's what the phrase is really all about anyway.

Interesting how you bring up Aemon and his being a true dragon. Aemon could have been King, but he gave that right up when he took the black and chose to honor his vows as a Maester instead of taking power. I always loved the passage where Aemon tells Jon that he must make his choice as well, and I still believe that Jon will have to make the choice. I don't think that he has had to do that yet, fully. Yes, he chose to not be Lord of Winterfell, but if you believe R+L=J I think his choices only begin there. Also of interest, when Aemon abdicated the crown, it went instead to his younger brother, an Aegon.

I get into this more in Part III, but I picture "true dragon" status as being something akin to the Zoroastrian concept of "Khvarenah." Khvarenah is often described as the "divine glory of kings" and often depicted in art as a shining light emanating from a royal figure. A king's Khvarenah is his symbol of rightful and righteous rule. Those who posses Khvarenah are said to make the greatest rulers, having a sort of radiant charisma. A king can lose his Khvarenah through misrule and regain it by making things right. Khvarenah can be transferred (usually upon death) and even stolen. In addition to kings, there are also several stories of heroes and prophets acquiring or being born with Khvarenah.

As far as Jon facing hard choices in future books, I completely agree. George has been sadistically forcing Jon to make no-win choices since the very beginning. Family vs honor. Honor vs protecting the realms of men. Supporting Stannis vs staying neutral. Helping the wildlings vs eliminating them as a threat. Fulfilling personal ambitions vs making sacrifices for the greater good. Etc, etc, etc. I'd be surprised if he didn't have a few more tough choices ahead of him.

I noticed that some people were speculating that the name Rhaegar was inspired by the Egyptian god Ra. There may be some truth to that, but I think there is probably a different explanation, as well.

Rhaegar is pronounced Ray-gar, which means that Rhae is a valyrianized spelling of Ray. GRRM's father's name is Raymond Martin. :D So, Rhaegar rhymes with Ray-mar. What's funny is that when you realize this, it becomes almost obvious that GRRM used his father's name as inspiration more than once.

1) Rhaegar

2) Waymar Royce

3) Khal Rhae Mhar (Viserys – the Sorefoot King.)

One wonders if GRRM has memories of his father, a dock worker, coming home and complaining of sore feet. And, though GRRM claims to be most like Tyrion, we are all the hero of our own fantasies. If there is one main hero who stands out a little more than the rest it's Jon Snow. Who is Jon Snow's father? Ray-gar.

That said, I wouldn't necessarily ignore the connection between Rhaegar and Ra. GRRM says that fans are allowed to pronounce names the way they like. One of the reasons for this, he says, is that when he went to college he was told that he had been pronouncing words incorrectly. Who knows, maybe a young GRRM thought Amen Ra was pronounced like Aemon Ray. :)

The name Rhaegar has always bothered me, because it feels like there should be some etymological clues in it, but nothing I've come up with fits perfectly. Lots of writers put their parents into their books like this, so you may well be right. It seems a bit odd to me that he would change the "mar" to a "gar," if he was going for an homage to his father, but there are certainly some potential explanations for the change.

I hadn't heard that about GRRM finding out he had been pronouncing words incorrectly when he got to college. Same thing happened to me, since I learned most of my vocabulary from reading instead of hearing words spoken. I still remember the looks I got when I pronounced the word "pernicious" as per-nik-ee-us in a freshman-year English class. :P

[J. Stargaryen]

The name Rhaegar has always bothered me, because it feels like there should be some etymological clues in it, but nothing I've come up with fits perfectly. Lots of writers put their parents into their books like this, so you may well be right. It seems a bit odd to me that he would change the "mar" to a "gar," if he was going for an homage to his father, but there are certainly some potential explanations for the change.

I hadn't heard that about GRRM finding out he had been pronouncing words incorrectly when he got to college. Same thing happened to me, since I learned most of my vocabulary from reading instead of hearing words spoken. I still remember the looks I got when I pronounced the word "pernicious" as per-nik-ee-us in a freshman-year English class. :P

His mother's name is Margaret, which might account for the use of -gar.

Btw, Margaery is a variant of Margaret, I believe.

[trepesoa]

I like how detailed you've done of an analysis but I just feel your are reaching to far. The basis of your argument that Lightbringer is a person and not a sword is that Martin wouldn't do something so cliche as have a magic sword. There's lots of ways to interpret it, that what makes Martin such a maserful story teller. I think Lightbringer is a sword, I think it needs to be forged 3 times. There are 3 dragons and they need 3 riders. Danny has obviously claimed Drogon and Jon I feel will claim the cream and gold Viserion. Personally, I think Tryion is part Targ from Aerys and Tyrion will get the green dragon Rhaegal. I like that Nissa Nissa means moon moon and how it ties back to the story of the two moons. Martin is doing an excellent job of keeping water, lion, and sacrificed love one motifs fresh in our mind as we read. I hope to compose a post not quite as detailed about my own theories about Lightbringer.

[Lyse Stark]

I like how detailed you've done of an analysis but I just feel your are reaching to far. The basis of your argument that Lightbringer is a person and not a sword is that Martin wouldn't do something so cliche as have a magic sword. There's lots of ways to interpret it, that what makes Martin such a maserful story teller. I think Lightbringer is a sword, I think it needs to be forged 3 times. There are 3 dragons and they need 3 riders. Danny has obviously claimed Drogon and Jon I feel will claim the cream and gold Viserion. Personally, I think Tryion is part Targ from Aerys and Tyrion will get the green dragon Rhaegal. I like that Nissa Nissa means moon moon and how it ties back to the story of the two moons. Martin is doing an excellent job of keeping water, lion, and sacrificed love one motifs fresh in our mind as we read. I hope to compose a post not quite as detailed about my own theories about Lightbringer.

You will be proven wrong in time. I think Schremdick has the right idea, and GRRM loves to subvert tropes. Your idea about the Hightower lighthouse housing a actual sword may turn to be painfully wrong.

[Onna Lewyys]

The basis of your argument that Lightbringer is a person and not a sword is that Martin wouldn't do something so cliche as have a magic sword.

That is a belief, but the actual basis for the argument is that Martin based the Red Religion partly on Catharism, which is an order that is thought to have been protecting an heir/bloodline.