R + L = Lightbringer -- Updated with Part II

[J. Stargaryen]

Once again it was my pleasure to help. :)

I don't really have a lot to add at the moment, except to say that this is a truly awesome piece of work. I'm just going to pick out a few of my favorite parts for comment.

The way you tie in Quaithe's warning about the Kraken, etc. to the forging of Lightbringer tale is really brilliant. I think this interpretation – all of it – works perfectly. It's not just neat or interesting, I think it's correct. Vic and his dragon horn, Tyrion and his knowledge of dragon lore, and Jon with his skinchanging ability.

Btw, top marks for the Lady Sunderly/burst asunder catch!

I think your interpretations of Nissa Nissa, the moons, Lyanna and Dany are spot on.

Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever. Its twin, floating on the sea beyond the ship, shimmered red with every wave.

ADwD, Tyrion VIII.

Like I said last night, when I read the blue part I wanted to high five you for that catch.

Your interpretation of the constellations is impressive and, I think, accurate.

The “red wanderer” is a star that is connected to the Smith. As it happens, in addition to being one aspect of the Seven, a smith is a guy who forges swords. And red, of course, is the color of fire. It’s a color we associate with the “red sword of heroes” and with Azor Ahai, who forged the first Lightbringer long ago. The wildlings call the star “the Thief.” They believe that when the red wanderer/Thief is in the moonmaid (when the two stars are aligned), it’s a good time to “steal” a woman.

Consider the two most famous examples from the books of a “Thief” stealing a woman. The first is Bael the Bard stealing a daughter of Winterfell and leaving behind a blue winter rose. The Stark daughter later turned up with a son. The second parallels the first; Rhaegar (known for his bardic skill with a harp) stealing Lyanna (a daughter of Winterfell), after placing a crown of blue winter roses in her lap (pretty close to where babies come from) at Harrenhal. Lyanna later turned up with Jon. Rhaegar absconding with Lyanna is likened to stealing more than once – and not just by Robert:

I think there is a good chance that some (many, most?) of these conclusions are going to become forum-canon. It's so well laid out. I don't know what else to add other than to thank you for these outstanding additions to the community. So, thank you. :bowdown:

[Ice Zombie]

Long time lurker first time poster!

Both essays are fantastic work. The level of knowledge on this forum is astounding at times. Well done, brilliant analysis.

[Onna Lewyys]

ETA: What is Onna Lewyys?

A 28 year-old fangirl from Wisconsin. Hi.

The point is that this series started in 1996, way before The Da Vinci Code came out. So if the "sang real" theory was Martin's basis for this story, you're saying he should abandon it halfway through just because some other author wrote a book about da Vinci & Jesus. That's ridiculous. ASOIAF isn't about da Vinci or Jesus, so I don't see the problem.

Off to read Part II, Schmendrick!

[Frey family reunion]

Wow that was a lot to digest. But first, I must commend you. This ... is .... now.... my.... favorite.... thread....ever!!!

Quick thoughts: I also believe that Jon becoming one with a dragon is the ultimate fulfillment of Lightbringer. Now whether the dragon will be Drogon I'm not sure. Here's a little tidbit from ADWD:

Quote

Viserion sensed her disquiet. The white dragon lay coiled around a pear tree, his head resting on his tail.

The head of the dragon resting on his tail stands for the Ouroboros, a dragon eating its own tail a symbol of reincarnation. The pear tree is the Christian symbol for man's salvation. Sing after me, On the first day of Christmas my true love gave to me, a partridge in a pear tree.

I've got a pet theory that the three dragons were woken from the three human sacrifices at the funeral pyre (I know, no duh) but their awakening was the result of a similar magic as Orell's second life in his eagle. Thus we get Drogon = Drogo (most independent, attracted tot he battle arena and the Dothraki sea, protective of Dany). Rhaegal = MMD, and Viserion = Rhaego, Dany's unborn child. The dragon must dependant on Dany, still clinging to her neck long after he had gotten too big to do so. Now if R + L = Jon then Rhaego is Jon's cousin. (interesting that that word was brought up in the description of oathkeeper and widow's wail). Viserion is associated with rebirth and the salvation of mankind.

I still think if Jon is following a similar path as the sword Gram, then in the next book he will not just have warged into Ghost but his body will also be resurrected by Melisandre (and if I had to guess with maybe the sacrifice of Stannis and Theon). So like the sword Gram which broke in two after it struck the spear of the black cloaked soldier (Odin in disguise), Jon will literally split in two after his stabbing by the blacked cloaked soldiers (who believe they are keeping their oaths and honoring the memory of Lord Commander Mormont or Odin).

Like you said one piece is Ghost or Jon's animus inside of his direwolf The other piece of the broken sword will be a resurrected Jon much akin to Lady Stoneheart. This part of the sword is the sorcerous part, or the blade without a hilt, or you can also call it the pointy end.

Jon's last thoughts:

Quote

"Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold...

Then we have the image of Ice being split into two blades: Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail.

1. Ghost: Oathkeeper: the half of the sword with the hilt: Jon's consciousness.

2. UnJon or Jon Stoneheart: Widow's Wail: the half of the sword with the pointy end or the blade without the hilt (sorcery). Jon's last primal thought resurrected as a fiery being bent on vengeance. Stick them with the pointy end come to life.

At some point these two halves will be reunited which I think leads to Jon's reforging and will allow him to become one with a dragon (which I think is Viserion, the smaller, lighter dragon as compared to Drogon).

Funny you should mention Tyrion and how he may find a way to control a dragon of his own:

From ASOS As he and Shae play hide and seek amongst the dragons skulls in the bowels of the Red Keep

Quote

By the time she slipped into his arms, he was flushed and out of breath from stumbling into dragon skulls.

Sounds like a bit of foreshadowing, no?

[Ser Creighton]

A 28 year-old fangirl from Wisconsin. Hi.

The point is that this series started in 1996, way before The Da Vinci Code came out. So if the "sang real" theory was Martin's basis for this story, you're saying he should abandon it halfway through just because some other author wrote a book about da Vinci & Jesus. That's ridiculous. ASOIAF isn't about da Vinci or Jesus, so I don't see the problem.

Off to read Part II, Schmendrick!

A 28 year-old fangirl from Wisconsin. Hi.

The point is that this series started in 1996, way before The Da Vinci Code came out. So if the "sang real" theory was Martin's basis for this story, you're saying he should abandon it halfway through just because some other author wrote a book about da Vinci & Jesus. That's ridiculous. ASOIAF isn't about da Vinci or Jesus, so I don't see the problem.

Off to read Part II, Schmendrick!

Hi sorry didn't know it was a posters name. Thought it was like a Donna Lewis with a french accent. No I am not really talking about abandoning anything, though 1984 is before Martin even started the series. I call it the Da Vinci code, you can call it the Da Vinci legacy, there were other books doing the same thing. Martin does not follow parallels like that. Even if it was just from the quasi historical POV. Inspiration for an idea? Sure, but a direct parallel? I don't see him doing that, and the OP is very Da Vinci. I don't think he should ignore the idea, but direct parallels don't work that well in the series. He will do a homage for his own works,, a homage for other works, but nothing this big. Even the war of the Roses, the books really don't play out that well in a direct comparison, and some historians point to the fact that Martin likes to take a little bit of this and that and mix and match. 3 characters may have 3 different parts of one historical figure, mixed with 5 other parts of other figures and a whole lot of imagination mixed in.

I don't really see direct parallels with Martin as much as I see influences and inspiration. But that's my view on it, doesn't make it right. I find the parallels very interesting I will say that. But I can't get past the fact that the OP reads like the Da Vinci code and in turn the Da Vinci legacy. So I will leave you all to to it, but I pass on theory for now. It is very interesting but I worry about the parallel being to close and I don't see Martin doing that very often and nothing this big. Enjoy the theory french accent Donna Lewis, you are a very gracious and patient.

Have fun with it, it's a good theory but not for me at least not right now.

[Han Snow]

I read the whole part 2 and I liked it and was definitely intrigued by it. But I do have more then doubts about certain things. The biggest one is that I can't really reconcile the analogy for Quatihe's prophecy actually being about forging of the Lightbringer, even more specifically that Sun's son is Jon. Quentyn fits perfectly and there is no need to remove him from the equation, besides in my mind it even further degrades his POV chapters and GRRM's decision for overall inclusion in the story. To me the prophecy seems to concentrate on the events and players in Essos and Jon is nowhere near Essos as much as Dany is nowhere near Westeros. Anyways, it was a nice read and I am anxiously awaiting for part 3. Hopefully it won take you three months to post it. :ack: But no, really, hurry up! ;)

[Frey family reunion]

I read the whole part 2 and I liked it and was definitely intrigued by it. But I do have more then doubts about certain things. The biggest one is that I can't really reconcile the analogy for Quatihe's prophecy actually being about forging of the Lightbringer, even more specifically that Sun's son is Jon. Quentyn fits perfectly and there is no need to remove him from the equation, besides in my mind it even further degrades his POV chapters and GRRM's decision for overall inclusion in the story. To me the prophecy seems to concentrate on the events in players in Essos and Jon is nowhere near Essos as much as Dany is nowhere near Westeros. Anyways, it was a nice read and I am anxiously awaiting for part 3. Hopefully it won take you three months to post it. :ack: But no, really, hurry up! ;)

Jon as the sun's son was my biggest question mark as well. But I do agree with him that whenever the prophecy seems obvious then you probably have the wrong answer. I also think that GRRM has put several repeating patterns in the story, so even if one answer is correct, it doesn't mean that the prophecy won't also stand for additional revelations later on. And at some point though I do think the events in Essos and the events north of the neck are going to intersect

[J. Stargaryen]

I read the whole part 2 and I liked it and was definitely intrigued by it. But I do have more then doubts about certain things. The biggest one is that I can't really reconcile the analogy for Quatihe's prophecy actually being about forging of the Lightbringer, even more specifically that Sun's son is Jon. Quentyn fits perfectly and there is no need to remove him from the equation, besides in my mind it even further degrades his POV chapters and GRRM's decision for overall inclusion in the story. To me the prophecy seems to concentrate on the events in players in Essos and Jon is nowhere near Essos as much as Dany is nowhere near Westeros. Anyways, it was a nice read and I am anxiously awaiting for part 3. Hopefully it won take you three months to post it. :ack: But no, really, hurry up! ;)

The idea that Jon is the "sun's son" is either something that has been kicked around the forum before or something that occurred to me. So, at least from my point of view, when I saw it I felt like it was a natural conclusion. Like Schmendrick says, GRRM doesn't let his characters resolve prophecies so easily.

Also, lots of things have multiple meanings. So, it's still true that Quentyn went to Dany, but it's also true that Jon could be described as the sun's son.

I mean, Lady Sunderly/burst asunder -- c'mon! That's not a coincidence.

[Summer314]

Wow! Congratulations and thank you for these awsome posts!!

I just wanted to say that in the comparison of the dark grey and blood red steel on Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail to Jon's dark grey eyes, I think Ghost's red eyes could also be included, since Jon can also see trough them :-) The steel color matches the union of Jon and Ghost eye color!

[The guy from the Vale]

Very, very nice to have read part II. Really interesting stuff there.

I think some of it is a tad too convoluted, but it still fits very nicely overall. I have always been cautious about all attempts at interpretation of the Azor Ahai myth because so many different interpretations seem to fit. I don't know which one I like more, this one or the idea of the Watch as Lightbringer; either way, it's a really well-thought piece of analysis.

One last passing thought: Your interpretation of Jon as Mithras works very well... but in Bran's early chapters in AGoT (particularly Bran II and III), we get another Mithras-like figure: Jaime. In Bran II, Jaime tells Bran to take [his] hand while Bran III describes Jaime as glowing like the sun. You mentioned that the second forging of Lightbringer resulted in a split, and used Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper in that regard... in some ways, we also see a split between Jaime and Tyrion, the two (male) lions, since the end of ASoS. I'm not really getting to any conclusions here yet, it's just the start of another idea about all of this, of course ;)

[Ghost's Shadow]

Beautiful posts for sure, same thing about Jon being the Sun's son.

[Frey family reunion]

The OP's talk of the Mithraic sacrifice of the White Bull brings the following passage from ADWD to mind:

Beyond it, by the canal, that's the temple of Aquan the Red Bull. Every thirteenth day, his priests slit the throat of a pure white calf, and offer bowls of blood to beggars."

[Frey family reunion]

Very, very nice to have read part II. Really interesting stuff there.

I think some of it is a tad too convoluted, but it still fits very nicely overall. I have always been cautious about all attempts at interpretation of the Azor Ahai myth because so many different interpretations seem to fit. I don't know which one I like more, this one or the idea of the Watch as Lightbringer; either way, it's a really well-thought piece of analysis.

One last passing thought: Your interpretation of Jon as Mithras works very well... but in Bran's early chapters in AGoT (particularly Bran II and III), we get another Mithras-like figure: Jaime. In Bran II, Jaime tells Bran to take [his] hand while Bran III describes Jaime as glowing like the sun. You mentioned that the second forging of Lightbringer resulted in a split, and used Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper in that regard... in some ways, we also see a split between Jaime and Tyrion, the two (male) lions, since the end of ASoS. I'm not really getting to any conclusions here yet, it's just the start of another idea about all of this, of course ;)

And of course Jaime and Tyrion were both born in a Rock as was Mithras.

[J. Stargaryen]

Very, very nice to have read part II. Really interesting stuff there.

I think some of it is a tad too convoluted, but it still fits very nicely overall. I have always been cautious about all attempts at interpretation of the Azor Ahai myth because so many different interpretations seem to fit. I don't know which one I like more, this one or the idea of the Watch as Lightbringer; either way, it's a really well-thought piece of analysis.

One last passing thought: Your interpretation of Jon as Mithras works very well... but in Bran's early chapters in AGoT (particularly Bran II and III), we get another Mithras-like figure: Jaime. In Bran II, Jaime tells Bran to take [his] hand while Bran III describes Jaime as glowing like the sun. You mentioned that the second forging of Lightbringer resulted in a split, and used Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper in that regard... in some ways, we also see a split between Jaime and Tyrion, the two (male) lions, since the end of ASoS. I'm not really getting to any conclusions here yet, it's just the start of another idea about all of this, of course ;)

And of course Jaime and Tyrion were both born in a Rock as was Mithras.

This is interesting. I wonder if the Lion/split doesn't maybe refer to Tyrion and Jaime somehow.

[Han Snow]

Lady Sunderly/burst asunder -- c'mon! That's not a coincidence.

:) Maybe, maybe not.

So Vic fails to "permanently" bind the dragons or a dragon to his will, Tyrion fails to bind them with spells/old knowledge, whatever he uses and then Jon succeeds with his skinchanging abilities?! How does Dany fit in all this? Does she stand and watch as others take her "children" away from her. The dragon has three heads? Jon skinchanging three dragons at the same time? Three riders?...

part 3 can't come soon enough.

[Jô Maltese]

Brilliant work :bowdown: .

What I definitely buy:

- Lyanna is... Luna, Lune, yes, the Moon.

- The three riders - Vic, Tyrion and Jon, and fAegon Blackfyre.

- Tyrion has guessed Jon's parentage.

Paradoxically, your analysis confirms my gut feeling on the outcome: Tyrion (and Varys) will be the 'winner' in the end, because he is the only one who will not use magic (the sword without a hilt).

[J. Stargaryen]

Brilliant work :bowdown: .

What I definitely buy:

- Lyanna is... Luna, Lune, yes, the Moon.

- The three riders - Vic, Tyrion and Jon, and fAegon Blackfyre.

- Tyrion has guessed Jon's parentage.

Paradoxically, your analysis confirms my gut feeling on the outcome: Tyrion (and Varys) will be the 'winner' in the end, because he is the only one who will not use magic (the sword without a hilt).

Where does it say this?

[Schmendrick]

Hi everyone. There have been some posts that I've been meaning to respond to for several days, so I'm going to try to catch up a bit.

The PTWP and AAR are the same person. It is known. Or if not a person, at least the same entity.

Jon, the PTWP / AAR, fights with a burning sword... Lightbringer. The sword is Longclaw. Predawn gloom (therefore the darkness has gathered) makes sure we understand the dream is linked to reality.

I don't think AAR and tPtwP are the same person, but "same entity" is in the ballpark of how I see it. I'll be spending some time on AAR and the three heads of the dragon in Part III.

I'll be spending some time on Longclaw in Part III also. I don't think Longclaw is Lightbringer, though. Compare how Salladhor Saan characterizes Stannis' "fake" Lightbringer:

“A sword plucked from fire, yes. Men tell me things, it is my pleasant smile. How shall a burnt sword serve Stannis?”

“A burning sword,” corrected Davos.

“Burnt,” said Salladhor Saan, “and be glad of that, my friend."

[He tells the tale of the three forging attempts]

“Now do you see my meaning? Be glad that it is just a burnt sword that His Grace pulled from that fire. Too much light can hurt the eyes, my friend, and fire burns.”

ACoK, Davos I.

... with how Longclaw is described just after Jon receives it:

“Rudge has been helping Donal Noye in the forge. He was there when the Old Bear brought him the burnt blade.”

“The sword!” Matt insisted. The others took up the chant. “The sword, the sword, the sword.”

Jon unsheathed Longclaw and showed it to them, turning it this way and that so they could admire it. The bastard blade glittered in the pale sunlight, dark and deadly. “Valyrian steel,” he declared solemnly, trying to sound as pleased and proud as he ought to have felt. ....

“The Night’s Watch is thousands of years old,” he said, “but I’ll wager Lord Snow’s the first brother ever honored for burning down the Lord Commander’s Tower.”

AGoT, Jon VIII

The exchange between Salla and Davos suggests that Lightbringer isn't a "burnt sword," it's a "burning sword." The irony in this Jon passage is that there are two "bastard blades" on display: The "burnt" one (Longclaw) and the "burning" one (Jon, who was "honored for burning down the Lord Commander's tower" with a sword).

Jon was born in Dorne where the sun burns hot. But he was brought up in the North where it is cold. Does not this sound like a sword being hammered hot and then tempered in cold?

I like it! Good catch.

A sword that sends off it's own heat would be a fine thing to have on the Wall, which would be an ironic statement if Jon is Lightbringer. And when he was talking to Tycho, he said that a dragon would be nice to have on the Wall. So, there's precedent for this kind of irony.

And it could also be foreshadowing Dany coming to the Wall in the future. Like before the battle when he thinks he "might as well wish for another thousand men, or maybe a dragon or three." He did actually get the extra thousand men, so now I'm just waiting for the dragons.

Thanks for reminding me of these two passages! I used them both in Part II (and gave you both credit).

My guess is Martin's trick is that there may be multiple persons who fulfill the ancient prophecies.

I think Rhaegar is one. Born on the day of Aegon V death, my belief is he inhereited Aegon V's mantle as the dragon.

I've been playing around with a similar theory related to the three heads of the dragon. I like the idea that "true dragon" status can pass from one Targaryen to another upon the death of a "true dragon." There's some evidence to support it in the books (like the Rhaegar/Aegon V thing you mentioned) and also some interesting parallels in Zoroastrianism which I'm still researching.

<snip>

Thanks a ton (for the compliment and the help)!

Long time lurker first time poster!

Both essays are fantastic work. The level of knowledge on this forum is astounding at times. Well done, brilliant analysis.

Thank you very much. And welcome to the forums. :cheers:

Unfortunately, I have to get some work done, but I'll be back tomorrow to respond to a bunch more posts. Thanks to everyone who took the time to read such a long theory!

[furiousmoose0]

Amazing work! I am going to have a reread I think but real quick another point in the Dragon blade and Jon references. Jons sword "Longclaw". Tywin Lannister is one of the wealthiest men in Westeros and he was incapable of finding valyrian steel to make a heirloom. Yet Jon is handed one by the LC. Yes for saving his life, but it's strange that Mormont even brought his sword with him no? When a man of the NW takes the black they forsake all lands, titles, and claims. Strange that he takes the heirloom of his house with him to the wall.

Now lets go to Jons last conversation with Samwell. Almost their entire conversation is in both AFFC and ADWD. I am sure there is more to that what I have gleaned, but what about "dragonsteel"? If dragonsteel is simply another term for valyrian steel, Jon now bears one. Dragon blade and Jon. Also dragonsteel could have a double meaning as well with lightbringer being a literal dragon.

[Jô Maltese]

Where does it say this?

Here:

So they say,” Tyrion replied. “Sad, isn’t it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own.”

(...)

Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. “Don’t look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You’ve dreamt the same kind of dreams.”

AGoT, Tyrion II.

Else, The more I think of it, the more I find the comparison of Lyanna and Rhaegar to the Moon and the Sun absolutely spot on. Lyanna is very much a Diana / Artemis, the Greek Huntress divinity, also associated with the moon and birthing.

As for Rhaegar = the Sun, his name evokes Râ, the Egyptian sun divinity, and his image of a beautiful and seducing bard with a harp reminds me of Apollo, often associated with a Lyre (at small harp)... and the sun in Greek mythology. Of note, Apollo is the twin brother of Diana/Artemis and is in love with her - he kills Orion, Artemis' best friend, by jealousy.

Last, I also think we should not read too much in resemblances with existing Myths. After all, all mankind mythologies are based on men's realities and specifically on their inner nature. As GRRM put it, aSoIaF is a story about the 'choices of the human heart', so it should be no surprise the characters act like myths - not always intentionally IMO.