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Mance is illiterate


Mithras

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He called himself Abel as an anagram of Bael. Doesn't that indicate he knows the alphabet?

Wow, that is a great catch. I never made that connection.

I was briefly considering if this could be a simple slip of George, that he just didn't think of this. But then I rememberd the dialogue between Roose and Theon, about peasants saying "m'lord" as if it was one word, because they never see it written down. So he certainly considered this.

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He called himself Abel as an anagram of Bael. Doesn't that indicate he knows the alphabet?

Wow, that is a great catch. I never made that connection.

I was briefly considering if this could be a simple slip of George, that he just didn't think of this. But then I rememberd the dialogue between Roose and Theon, about peasants saying "m'lord" as if it was one word, because they never see it written down. So he certainly considered this.

I think this pretty much settles it. Mance can read or GRRM has made a mistake by indicating that he knows how to read.

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Wow, that is a great catch. I never made that connection.

I was briefly considering if this could be a simple slip of George, that he just didn't think of this. But then I rememberd the dialogue between Roose and Theon, about peasants saying "m'lord" as if it was one word, because they never see it written down. So he certainly considered this.

I don't think Roose says anything about it being because they've never seen it written down, just that they slur the two words together

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@BBE

Mance isn't ignorant of the population disparity. He knows the gift and the new gift are essentially unpopulated and that there are a lot of cultural similarities between the Free Folk and the North (GRRM has said there isn't the same degree of enmity from the Free Folk toward the North as there is toward the Crows). He probably wanted to negotiate a truce in which the free folk could populate the gifts w/ some degree of autonomy in exchange for fighting against the Others. Obviously he'd rather face the North/7 Kingdoms w/ his own strength and the power to negotiate some sort of terms of co-existence than the Others.

Except that he flat-out refused to do that in his treatings with Jon. Remember, Jon is not only the Watchmen who may negotiate a treaty for the Watch (as far as Mance knows), he is also the brother of the King in the North, who'd probably listen to him. Lying to him on the matter when Mance intended to negotiate would be worse than useless, he'd outright harm his cause.

The OP has failed to acknowledge that Maester Aemon was at the Wall when Mance was a child.I'd be very surprised if someone like him lay around and failed to teach a young boy in the care of the NW his letters.

Mance is implied to have grown up at the Shadow Tower, not in Castle Black. Furthermore, Maester Aemon was already blind, not being able to teach anybody.

Watchmen are not peasants though, and by Mormont's admission, they need more people who can read and write. Not teaching the one boy you can actually teach a skill that you desperately need would be myopic beyond belief.

Then why isn't Chett able to read? He was fairly young when he came to the Watch, he served Maester Aemon personally for years, tending the ravens, still, he can't read.

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Except that he flat-out refused to do that in his treatings with Jon. Remember, Jon is not only the Watchmen who may negotiate a treaty for the Watch (as far as Mance knows), he is also the brother of the King in the North, who'd probably listen to him. Lying to him on the matter when Mance intended to negotiate would be worse than useless, he'd outright harm his cause.

Mance is implied to have grown up at the Shadow Tower, not in Castle Black. Furthermore, Maester Aemon was already blind, not being able to teach anybody.

Then why isn't Chett able to read? He was fairly young when he came to the Watch, he served Maester Aemon personally for years, tending the ravens, still, he can't read.

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to wrt Mance and his refusal/lying. I assume you're saying he refused to give up autonomy for free passage through the wall. On this your totally correct. Sorry if i was unclear in my post. It certainly wasn't very clear and/or accurate when I said that he would negotiate for a degree of autonomy in exchange for fighting against the others. The deal Mance offered was free passage and complete autonomy for the horn/an intact Wall. My bad.

Nevertheless Mance organized a mass exodus out of necessity not ignorance or stupidity. He wasn't looking to conquer like his predecessors he was looking to hide behind the Wall. Mance clearly preferred the idea of negotiating w/ the Watch instead of engaging in any more attacks on the Wall or facing the Others because either option would only further bloody his peeps:

Mance ran a hand along the curve of the great horn. “No man goes hunting with only one arrow in his quiver,” he said. “I had hoped that Styr and Jarl would take your brothers unawares, and open the gate for us. I drew your garrison away with feints and raids and secondary attacks. Bowen Marsh swallowed that lure as I knew he would, but your band of cripples and orphans proved to be more stubborn than anticipated. Don’t think you’ve stopped us, though. The truth is, you are too few and we are too many. I could continue the attack here and still send ten thousand men to cross the Bay of Seals on rafts and take Eastwatch from the rear. I could storm the Shadow Tower too, I know the approaches as well as any man alive. I could send men and mammoths to dig out the gates at the castles you’ve abandoned, all of them at once.”

“Why don’t you, then?” Jon could have drawn Longclaw then, but he wanted to hear what the wildling had to say.

Blood,” said Mance Rayder. “I’d win in the end, yes, but you’d bleed me, and my people have bled enough.”

“Your losses haven’t been that heavy.”

“Not at your hands.” Mance studied Jon’s face. “You saw the Fist of the First Men. You know what happened there. You know what we are facing.”

“The Others...

“They grow stronger as the days grow shorter and the nights colder. First they kill you, then they send your dead against you. The giants have not been able to stand against them, nor the Therns, the ice river clans, the Hornfoots.”

“Nor you?”

“Nor me.” There was anger in that admission, and bitterness too deep for words. “Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I’ve come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall.” He touched the horn. again. “If I sound the Horn of Winter, the Wall will fall. Or so the songs would have me believe. There are those among my people who want nothing more...”“But once the Wall is fallen,” Dalla said, “what will stop the Others?”

Mance gave her a fond smile. “It’s a wise woman I’ve found. A true queen.” He turned back to Jon. “Go back and tell them to open their gate and let us pass. If they do, I will give them the horn, and the Wall will stand until the end of days.”

Open the gate and let them pass. Easy to say, but what must follow? Giants camping in the ruins of Winterfell? Cannibals in the wolfswood, chariots sweeping across the barrowlands, free folk stealing the daughters of shipwrights and silversmiths from White Harbor and fishwives off the Stony Shore? “Are you a true king?” Jon asked suddenly.

“I’ve never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that’s what you’re asking,” Mance replied. “My birth is as low as a man’s can get, no septon’s ever smeared my head with oils, I don’t own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist. You don’t become King- beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won’t follow a name, and they don’t care which brother was born first. They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they’d sooner fight than follow.”

“You can kill your enemies,” Jon said bluntly, “but can you rule your friends? If we let your people pass, are you strong enough to make them keep the king’s peace and obey the laws?”

Whose laws? The laws of Winterfell and King’s Landing?” Mance laughed. “When we want laws we’ll make our own. You can keep your king’s justice too, and your king’s taxes. I’m offering you the horn, not our freedom. We will not kneel to you.”

“What if we refuse the offer?” Jon had no doubt that they would. The Old Bear might at least have listened, though he would have balked at the notion of letting thirty or forty thousand wildlings loose on the Seven Kingdoms. But Alliser Thorne and Janos Slynt would dismiss the notion out of hand.

“If you refuse,” Mance Rayder said, “Tormund Giantsbane will sound the Horn of Winter three days hence, at dawn.”

He could carry the message back to Castle Black and tell them of the horn, but if he left Mance still alive Lord Janos and Ser Alliser would seize on that as proof that he was a turncloak. A thousand thoughts flickered through Jon’s head. If I can destroy the horn, smash it here and now... but before he could begin to think that through, he heard the low moan of some other horn, made faint by the tent’s hide walls. Mance heard it too. Frowning, he went to the door. Jon followed.

Mance is clearly an intelligent character. He managed to organize the most disorganized and unruly folks, in the entire series/universe, and lead them on a mass exodus away from the Others/White Walkers, while at the same time having to account for a huge obstacle and further hostilities blocking the only retreat. He did this all the while maintaining pretty impressive group cohesion and unity of purpose. And the dude even after his ploy failed he still figured out how to cheat both Stannis' and the Watch' justice surviving despite having deserted, crowned himself King-Beyond-the-Wal and lead a wilding horde down on the realm.

We don't know that Aemon was blind when Mance came to the Wall. Mance is probably in his late thirties or early forties (grey hair). If he came to the Wall in the early 270s Aemon may have still had his sight.

And while it's unclear if Aemon's blindness was an issue limiting Mance's opportunity to have learned his letters from Aemon it certainly would have been an issue for Chett who was only under Aemon for 4 years prior to Sam taking his job. And we don't know how old he was when he came to the wall, he was most likely a young man (16-20) we don't know how long he long his training took before he was accepted as man of the Watch, so he could be anywhere form 20-26 at the time of his death. And it sounds like Chett's primary motivation was to do as little as possible while not being punished:

Sure enough, the nearest bowman was Ser Piggy himself, the fat boy who had stolen his place with Maester Aemon. Just the sight of Samwell Tarly filled him with anger. Stewarding for Maester Aemon had been as good a life as he’d ever known. The old blind man was undemanding, and Clydas had taken care of most of his wants anyway. Chett’s duties were easy: cleaning the rookery, a few fires to build, a few meals to fetch... and Aemon never once hit him. Thinks he can just walk in and shove me out, on account of being highborn and knowing how to read. Might be I ask him to read my knife before I open his throat with it. “You go on,” he told the others, “I want to watch this.” The dogs were pulling, anxious to go with them, to the food they thought would be waiting at the top. Chett kicked the bitch with the toe of his boot, and that settled them down some.

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“You can kill your enemies,” Jon said bluntly, “but can you rule your friends? If we let your people pass, are you strong enough to make them keep the king’s peace and obey the laws?”

Whose laws? The laws of Winterfell and King’s Landing?” Mance laughed. “When we want laws we’ll make our own. You can keep your king’s justice too, and your king’s taxes. I’m offering you the horn, not our freedom. We will not kneel to you.”

That is the passage I'm referring to. Mance flat-out refuses to treat with Winterfell or the Iron Throne.


We don't know that Aemon was blind when Mance came to the Wall. Mance is probably in his late thirties or early forties (grey hair). If he came to the Wall in the early 270s Aemon may have still had his sight.

We know that Aemon was already completely blind during Robert's Rebellion. Furthermore, Mance was still a "young ranger" when he visited Winterfell at least five years later. Jon remembers him as one such, and coherent memories form at about four to five years. At least, since Jon and Robb were already allowed to play on the battlements (100 feet high!) during winter (ice!) unsupervised. And since it's Jon who remembers him and not Aemon, he is unlikely to consider thirty young.

Ned Stark had a lot of grey in his hair as well, and he was only thirty-five. Jaime kept his hair color longer, but he got grey streaks sometime between thirty-three and thirty-five.

So, Mance was probably fifteen or younger when Aemon was definitely completely blind, probably much younger.

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Mance is certainly cunning, that is not the point of the discussion. The problem is, what makes it different than so many other recruits that he is taught how to read and write?



Gared and Kedge Whiteye joined the NW as boys (not much greater than 10). These experienced rangers show no sign of getting any education from maesters. They dont need such an education. Why should Mance be different than any of them?



Surely a peasant having 10 sons must give few of them to the NW recruiter from time to time. That should save him from hungry mouths which he could not feed. Child recruits should not be a rare sight at the Wall. How old was the company of Arya? Hot Pie, Lommy etc.? Were they going to learn the letters too?


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Mance was bright, ambitious, capable, and independent. Just like with a little help some southern slaves taught themselves to read, he could have done the same. Davos did, also with a little help plus an illustrated book. I think Mance was much more intelligent--don't forget he played an instrument and was an amateur bard, knowing many songs. He might have cleverly kept his knowledge hidden, like the protagonist of 12 Years a Slave.


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Hmmm I may have answered my own question.

The Thenns are of the firstmen

-the Firstmen didn't read or write(to the best of my knowledge , they used Runes as a for of cuneiform.)

-The Thenns being rich in ancient traditions would probably not be able to read or write either(unless they picking up reading and writing when then learned the common tongue.)

reading and writing what? As you said, the first men used runes.... you mean they can't read words set to paper in the 'common' Westori tounge? How many people south of the wall can't read anything at all....let alone multiple languages... few can read the books their own language is in to begin with....so to say the the average lord that can speak and read the common tongue is 'smarter' than the average Thenn that can read runes? How many lords speak or read other languages?

and what is the point of proving if Mance is illiterate or not? If he wanted to learn to read, I kinda think its something he could do easily enough if he wanted to.....if its to prove he was the author of the Pink Letter...his inability to read does not mean he could not have been the one responsible for what it says.

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Mance came to the shadow tower as a child, so let's say anywhere between 3-13. Now for the sake of argument let's say he was 5, what can a 5 year old do in the wall? well, maybe tending to the needs of the maester, something that gives him access to books and letters and maybe even to reading leasons.


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Mance came to the shadow tower as a child, so let's say anywhere between 3-13. Now for the sake of argument let's say he was 5, what can a 5 year old do in the wall? well, maybe tending to the needs of the maester, something that gives him access to books and letters and maybe even to reading leasons.

Run errands, fletch arrows, peel turnips, just the same as what Jon has his hostages doing.

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I dont agree with that anagram proving Mance's literacy. Does this anagram works in Common Tongue or the Old Tongue? We dont know how Abel and Bael are written in their original languages. And we do not know for sure whether Mance is aware of this Abel-Bael anagram (which exists only in English). Barristan used the alias Arstan and that was not an anagram, only a name which sounds isimilar to the original. Sometimes the characters are not aware of the anagrams put by the writers.



ETA: For example "Tom Marvolo Riddle = I am Lord Voldemort" is done by the character on purpose. It exists in English and the characters speak English. I think GRRM came up with "Bael=Abel" not Mance who does not know English.


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Run errands, fletch arrows, peel turnips, just the same as what Jon has his hostages doing.

Mance came to the shadow tower as a child, so let's say anywhere between 3-13. Now for the sake of argument let's say he was 5, what can a 5 year old do in the wall? well, maybe tending to the needs of the maester, something that gives him access to books and letters and maybe even to reading leasons.

“One hundred boys between the ages of eight and sixteen. A son from each of their chiefs and captains, the rest chosen by lot. The boys will serve as pages and squires, freeing our own men for other duties. They shall also churn butter, hew firewood, muck stables, empty chamber pots, and run messages.”

They will be assigned to whatever they can do and there is hell lot of work at the Wall.

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I don't think Roose says anything about it being because they've never seen it written down, just that they slur the two words together





He says, that peasants say it that way because they're too stupid to realize it's two words. By implication, if they could read, they wouldn't make that same mistake.


Reminds me of people saying "I would of hoped, that..."





I dont agree with that anagram proving Mance's literacy. Does this anagram works in Common Tongue or the Old Tongue? We dont know how Abel and Bael are written in their original languages. And we do not know for sure whether Mance is aware of this Abel-Bael anagram (which exists only in English). Barristan used the alias Arstan and that was not an anagram, only a name which sounds isimilar to the original. Sometimes the characters are not aware of the anagrams put by the writers.





Well, it works in the common tongue. The common tongue is english, and written down in english "Abel" is an anagram of "Bael."



Or are you working under the assumption, that the common tongue is something entirely different and we only get a direct translation from GRRM, similar to Daenerys' chapters?


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He says, that peasants say it that way because they're too stupid to realize it's two words. By implication, if they could read, they wouldn't make that same mistake.

Reminds me of people saying "I would of hoped, that..."

The peasants are ignorant rather than stupid. And I agree Ser Pollo that this has nothing to do with the knowledge of the written language. Even literate people do slur words. People do not talk formally all the time. They speak in the easiest possible way. This is true for all the languages, not just English.

E-Ro says "Brah" instead of "Brother" and we know that he is literate (we read what he wrote in the Forum).

Well, it works in the common tongue. The common tongue is english, and written down in english "Abel" is an anagram of "Bael."

Or are you working under the assumption, that the common tongue is something entirely different and we only get a direct translation from GRRM, similar to Daenerys' chapters?

Did GRRM confirm Common Tongue is English? Tolkien's Westron was a different language, all he did was a translation from Westron to English.

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This new crop consisted of a greybeard leaning on a staff, two blond boys with the look of brothers, a foppish youth in soiled satin, a raggy man with a clubfoot, and some grinning loon who must have fancied himself a warrior.


“Where did Conwy find them?”


“A lord’s dungeon near Gulltown,” the smith replied. “A brigand, a barber, a beggar, two orphans, and a boy whore. With such do we defend the realms of men.”



The two orphans came by Satin were boy recruits. The realm does not lack orphans and surely some of them find themselves at the Wall. I think boy recruits are not rare.


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