Mance is illiterate

[danm_999]

I'm still struggling to understand why we need to assume Mance was taught only the common skills during his time at the Watch.

[Rooseman]

Did GRRM confirm Common Tongue is English? Tolkien's Westron was a different language, all he did was a translation from Westron to English.

I don't know to be honest. But have a look at this passage:

“To the... five kings,” read Davos, hesitating briefly over five, which he did not often see written out. “The king... be... the king... beware?

“Beyond,” the maester corrected.

Davos grimaced. “The King beyond the Wall comes... comes south. He leads a... a... fast...”

“Vast.”

“... a vast host of wil... wild... wildlings. Lord M... Mmmor... Mormont sent a... raven from the... ha... ha...”

“Haunted. The haunted forest.” Pylos underlined the words with the point of his finger.

“... the haunted forest. He is... under a... attack?

“Yes.”

Pleased, he plowed onward. “Oth... other birds have come since, with no words. We... fear... Mormont slain with all... with all his... stench... no, strength. We fear Mormont slain with all his strength...”

The way Davos misreads certain words, definitely indicates that it's english.

[Ice Turtle]

The difference between Mance and most of other recruits is that Mance never saw the Watch as the end of his life, for him it was the beginning. He was intelligent and motivated. I stead of self-pitying as the most of the men around him he took all the Watch could give him. Mance was never a peasant who thanks to upbringing would firmly believe that ability to read is only for nobility.Before being a man of the Watch, he was a boy of the Watch. Before he joined wildlings the Watch was all his life. He livid by it's ideals more than anyone else. Mance is the man who firmly believes that man gains his position thanks to ability and not birth. He would do all he could to gain those abilities.

We have no solid proof and Martin can make Mance illiterate if it suits him without stretching things too much, but IMO it would be much more in character if he knew how to read and write.

[Mithras]

I'm still struggling to understand why we need to assume Mance was taught only the common skills during his time at the Watch.

Because he was no different than a thousand other boys who were not taught the letters as far as we know.

I don't know to be honest. But have a look at this passage:

The way Davos misreads certain words, definitely indicates that it's english.

That does not prove the Common Tongue being English. In the original language, Davos may have misread different words which may look like a mess when translated into English, so GRRM may have improvised in this part. Translastion from one language to another is always problematic and translators often add something of their own.

The name Baranduin was Sindarin for "golden-brown river", from baran and duin.

The Hobbits of the Shire originally gave it the punning name Branda-nîn, meaning "border water" in original Hobbitish Westron. This was later punned again as Bralda-hîm meaning "heady ale" (referring to the colour of its water), which Tolkien renders into English as Brandywine.

The word "Brandywine" both resembles the original Elvish name "Baranduin", and provides the Hobbitish meaning adequately.

The word brandywine was actually the archaic English word for brandy as imported from the Dutch brandewijn. David Salo noted that it represents a possible Old English *baernedwin, meaning "burned wine", which would resemble quite closely the original Elvish Baranduin. making Hobbitish Brandywine a legitimate corruption of S. Baranduin.

Tolkien translated Westron Bralda-him as Brandywine (keeping much of its meaning in Westron) but that turned out to be remarkably close the original Baranduin (not in a meaning sense but is very close to the original Sindarin word phonetically).

The difference between Mance and most of other recruits is that Mance never saw the Watch as the end of his life, for him it was the beginning. He was intelligent and motivated. I stead of self-pitying as the most of the men around him he took all the Watch could give him. Mance was never a peasant who thanks to upbringing would firmly believe that ability to read is only for nobility.Before being a man of the Watch, he was a boy of the Watch. Before he joined wildlings the Watch was all his life. He livid by it's ideals more than anyone else. Mance is the man who firmly believes that man gains his position thanks to ability and not birth. He would do all he could to gain those abilities.

We have no solid proof and Martin can make Mance illiterate if it suits him without stretching things too much, but IMO it would be much more in character if he knew how to read and write.

I am sorry but what you suggest are all fan fiction and most of them are wrong. Refer to the previous posts I made about the Qhorin's description of Mance. A cool and badass character do not have to be literate just for we wish him to be.

I gave the example of Squirrel, who was taken to raiding by his brother at the age of 12 and she climbed the Wall with them. Mance was with the wildling raiders when he was found. Not all the wildlings are raiders. Most of them live and die without seeing the Wall. So Mance should be well over 10 and half a raider himself when he was found. I wrote this in previous posts. If you can find evidences from the books suggesting otherwise, please share them with us.

[Mithras]

The Wall did not awe Jarl’s raiders, Jon saw. They have done this before, every man of them. Jarl called out names when they dismounted beneath the ridge, and eleven gathered round him. All were young. The oldest could not have been more than five-and-twenty, and two of the ten were younger than Jon.

It would not be the first time wildlings had scaled the Wall, not even the hundred and first. The patrols stumbled on climbers two or three times a year, and rangers sometimes came on the broken corpses of those who had fallen. Along the east coast the raiders most often built boats to slip across the Bay of Seals. In the west they would descend into the black depths of the Gorge to make their way around the Shadow Tower. But in between the only way to defeat the Wall was to go over it, and many a raider had. Fewer come back, though, he thought with a certain grim pride. Climbers must of necessity leave their mounts behind, and many younger, greener raiders began by taking the first horses they found. Then a hue and cry would go up, ravens would fly, and as often as not the Night’s Watch would hunt them down and hang them before they could get back with their plunder and stolen women.

These two quotes must give you the manner of Mance's capturing along with the wildling raiders.

[danm_999]

Because he was no different than a thousand other boys who were not taught the letters as far as we know.

A thousand other boys at the Wall weren't taught how to play instruments or sing either. Based on that alone, whatever skills Mance picked up along the way aren't necessarily indicative of what the average recruit of the Watch learns.

You don't ever actually prove in any of your posts that Mance can't read, just that it would be atypical for someone in Mance's position to learn how to read.

[Mithras]

A thousand other boys at the Wall weren't taught how to play instruments or sing either. Based on that alone, whatever skills Mance picked up along the way aren't necessarily indicative of what the average recruit of the Watch learns.

No one taught Mance how to play a lute. He picked up one and tried himself. The NW has better things to do than teaching instruments to the recruits.

You don't ever actually prove in any of your posts that Mance can't read, just that it would be atypical for someone in Mance's position to learn how to read.

That is what I am trying to do. Thanks for summarizing. I am saying not only atypical but also highly unlikely.

[danm_999]

No one taught Mance how to play a lute. He picked up one and tried himself. The NW has better things to do than teaching instruments to the recruits.

Source for any of this?

That is what I am trying to do. Thanks for summarizing. I am saying not only atypical but also highly unlikely.

You're still not getting it.

You're arguing probability when the question is possibility.

[Rooseman]

That does not prove the Common Tongue being English. In the original language, Davos may have misread different words which may look like a mess when translated into English, so GRRM may have improvised in this part. Translastion from one language to another is always problematic and translators often add something of their own.

[...]

Tolkien translated Westron Bralda-him as Brandywine (keeping much of its meaning in Westron) but that turned out to be remarkably close the original Baranduin (not in a meaning sense but is very close to the original Sindarin word phonetically).

You can't really have it both ways.

If you turn to saying that George uses a loose translation to get the meaning across - especially when it's about something like spelling-smiliarities - then you weaken your original argument about "Bael" being only an anagram of "Abel" in our own modern day english.

You're selectively applying the argument whenever it fits your narrative, but forget about it when it doesn't.

[Ice Turtle]

I am sorry but what you suggest are all fan fiction and most of them are wrong. Refer to the previous posts I made about the Qhorin's description of Mance. A cool and badass character do not have to be literate just for we wish him to be.

Then we are not going to agree on what fanfiction is. You have every right to disagree with me, be you should try to be polite about it instead of mocking my post.

I still disagree with you.

Mance thinks he’ll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he’s still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He’s never tasted winter.

He loved the wild better than the Wall. It was in his blood. He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again.

Emphasis is mine. Wildness was in Mance's blood not in his upbringing. For some of the wildlings he is still more crow than a wildling. He himself was not a raider when he was taken. If he was he would be much more likely referred as a boy not a child.

[joluoto2]

I still stand by me Three Drunkards theory.

[Mithras]

Source for any of this?

You're still not getting it.

You're arguing probability when the question is possibility.

Do you have an evidence of a Maester giving Mance music lessons? Not even fAegon gets music lessons and his "father" was a gifted harpist. And in a place like the Wall, I see that as a complete waste of time which no LC would suffer. Besides, learning an instrument and various songs do not mean you know the letters. How could thousands of blind men learned instruments, composed and wrote songs throughout the history which goes far before the medieval times?

Give me one single textual evidence where Mance read something or wrote something and I will say no more. Since we cant see any such evidence, it is natural to assume that he is illiterate. I give various wildling raider boys/girls and boy recruits, who are not likely to be taught how to read and write. These are based on textual evidences.

Then we are not going to agree on what fanfiction is. You have every right to disagree with me, be you should try to be polite about it instead of mocking my post.

I still disagree with you.

Mance thinks he’ll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he’s still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He’s never tasted winter.

He loved the wild better than the Wall. It was in his blood. He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again.

Emphasis is mine. Wildness was in Mance's blood not in his upbringing. For some of the wildlings he is still more crow than a wildling. He himself was not a raider when he was taken. If he was he would be much more likely referred as a boy not a child.

Dany was called a child by Jorah many times, how old was she when that happened? And you should tell me what does a child do with the wildling raiders. I already posted that few of the wildling population become raiders. From what we know about the raiders, the most reasonable explanation of a child being with raiders is that it was meant to season the child. And the child must already have some skills as we know from Squirrel. No raider would want a small child with them because that makes one of them busy with babysitting.

I still stand by me Three Drunkards theory.

Can you give a link to that theory so that I can read it and understand your point?

[danm_999]

Do you have an evidence of a Maester giving Mance music lessons? Not even fAegon gets music lessons and his "father" was a gifted harpist.

Who said Mance learnt music from a Maester?

And in a place like the Wall, I see that as a complete waste of time which no LC would suffer.

Err, based on what?

We know Lord Commanders are incredibly permissive in this regard. They allow their men to dice. They allow their men to drink.

Hell, we know the Lord Commanders before Jon were so permissive they let men sneak off to Mole Town every night to whore as a neccessary evil. And shit, bedding whores is at least tangentially relating to upholding the oaths of the Watch (father no children).

There's nothing in the oaths that say you're not allowed to play music. But Black Brothers playing music is outlawed for some reason according to you.

Besides, learning an instrument and various songs do not mean you know the letters.

Jesus you're still not getting it.

As I've said from the start, that Mance can play an instrument isn't evidence he can read, it's evidence he clearly received more at the Wall than training as a Ranger "all along" as you asserted in the OP.

So if you can't account for the fact he clearly received a hell of a lot of musical training whilst he was a Black Brother, you can't pretend it's out of the question someone taught him to read and write.

Basically, Mance isn't your usual case. He's clearly an unusual fellow who took unusual interests and training. Pointing out most peasants that turn up at the Wall never learn to read really proves nothing, since Mance is clearly an atypical, exception fellow.

[Luddagain]

We actually know NOTHING of Mance before his arrival at the wall. Not even his name. If we assume that Rayder was given to him because of his method of arrival.

It is likely that Mance was already 9/10 or so when he was captured. He may already have known how to play the harp. Depending upon who his parents were, he may have been taught to read.

There were after all many girls kidnapped by raiders and some of these will have known how to read andat of may have taught their kids.

Of course we often hear of "secret Targs" but what of "secret Starks" For all we know Mance's daddy or granddaddy may have been a Stark or a Snow or his mother may have been captured etc. It seems highly likely there would be a bit of Stark blood over the wall what with all the Starks who have been rangers etc.

Even more likely is that when taken as a child, in addition to training in arms, he would have been put to work and for a clearly bright boy he would probably have done steward duties of the lighter kind. - acting as a page/cupbearer and messenger. Chances are that he would have picked up a bit of reading, even if only to read songs. Of the other boys recruited, many are there for having committed a crime (eg Chett) and I suspect that even in a modern classroom the Chett's of this world would be remedial. From the experiences of Jon and others, boys older than 14 or so would spend most of their time in training or working, but for younger boys the training would presumably be less rigorous as they lacked strength to mix it with the bigger boys.

Now we KNOW Mance is a very fine swordsman. WHO TAUGHT HIM? There must have been one hell of a good swordsman at the wall to train up young Mance. Perhaps we have a bit of a Dunk and Egg situation.

[Mithras]

As I've said from the start, that Mance can play an instrument isn't evidence he can read, it's evidence he clearly received more at the Wall than training as a Ranger "all along" as you asserted in the OP.

So if you can't account for the fact he clearly received a hell of a lot of musical training whilst he was a Black Brother, you can't pretend it's out of the question someone taught him to read and write.

Basically, Mance isn't your usual case. He's clearly an unusual fellow who took unusual interests and training. Pointing out most peasants that turn up at the Wall never learn to read really proves nothing, since Mance is clearly an atypical, exception fellow.

I really dont understand what you are trying to say so I take this as a summary of your reason why you brought the music into the discussion of the possibility of a maester teaching Mance the letters.

1) Mance may well had a lute and knew how to play it when he was captured. A child is able to do that. As I explained before, Mance should be well over 10 when he was captured. Raiders are not babysitters.

2) (Assuming he got the music at the Wall) Music and songs are not "atypical". Singers, bards are gifted and greatly prized everywhere. So if he felt like he had the gift, he could try it in his spare times. But if you suggest that he was trained by someone, then you should tell us who taught Mance the music. Is music the only "atypical" thing you can come up with about Mance?

3) I can pretend it is out of the question someone taught him the letters. Just because he learned music from someone at the Wall you still not named yet (and this is an assumption) does not mean that he wants to learn the letter too. Do these two things come as a package?

4) There is nothing unusual about Mance other than he was wildling born and taken from wildling raiders. And this makes me think more in the favor of he gave zero shit to wasting his time with learning the letters.

[Mithras]

We actually know NOTHING of Mance before his arrival at the wall. Not even his name. If we assume that Rayder was given to him because of his method of arrival.

It is likely that Mance was already 9/10 or so when he was captured. He may already have known how to play the harp. Depending upon who his parents were, he may have been taught to read.

There were after all many girls kidnapped by raiders and some of these will have known how to read andat of may have taught their kids.

Of course we often hear of "secret Targs" but what of "secret Starks" For all we know Mance's daddy or granddaddy may have been a Stark or a Snow or his mother may have been captured etc. It seems highly likely there would be a bit of Stark blood over the wall what with all the Starks who have been rangers etc.

Even more likely is that when taken as a child, in addition to training in arms, he would have been put to work and for a clearly bright boy he would probably have done steward duties of the lighter kind. - acting as a page/cupbearer and messenger. Chances are that he would have picked up a bit of reading, even if only to read songs. Of the other boys recruited, many are there for having committed a crime (eg Chett) and I suspect that even in a modern classroom the Chett's of this world would be remedial. From the experiences of Jon and others, boys older than 14 or so would spend most of their time in training or working, but for younger boys the training would presumably be less rigorous as they lacked strength to mix it with the bigger boys.

Now we KNOW Mance is a very fine swordsman. WHO TAUGHT HIM? There must have been one hell of a good swordsman at the wall to train up young Mance. Perhaps we have a bit of a Dunk and Egg situation.

Please check the topic from the beginning. There are quotes clearly suggest that Mance was wildling born. We dont know any single wildling knowing how to read and write we do not see any reason why they should.

Every recruit is taught the arms but not all of them have the same skill. It is a talent. Mance has it. He does not have to be a highborn kid trained by a maester-at-arms. Leathers is a wildling who is very skilled with an axe.

[Ice Turtle]

Dany was called a child by Jorah many times, how old was she when that happened? And you should tell me what does a child do with the wildling raiders. I already posted that few of the wildling population become raiders. From what we know about the raiders, the most reasonable explanation of a child being with raiders is that it was meant to season the child. And the child must already have some skills as we know from Squirrel. No raider would want a small child with them because that makes one of them busy with babysitting.

He calls her child when he is addressing her, he dosn't describe her as a child. It's about more about their social roles than age. Blackfish calls Cat child:

“There was a bird from Riverrun,” Catelyn began, “a letter from Edmure …”

“I know, child.”

We have no information where the raiders were caught. It could have been south the Wall or north the Wall in their own village. Mance could have been child of one of the raiders especially if the raider was a woman.

[Kennedy the Keen]

Didn't the HalfHand say that Mance was "the best of us", us being the NW.

From what I've seen from Jon's experiences on the wall, doesn't the NW try and find people with a potential for greatness or even just over average skills, and take them and groom them to a position of some importance.

I am a supporter of Mance and think is one of the more interesting, baddass, characters in the novels. But does it really matter if Mance is illiterate. He could have easily had someone else write the PL for him. We can all agree that Mance does seen to have some skills in persuasion.

Mance is tPtwP! He's the son of the King Scab! You know nothing... Hehe *Crackpottery*

[joluoto2]

Can you give a link to that theory so that I can read it and understand your point?

I theorize that Stannis, Ramsay and Mance got drunk together and wrote the letter to fuck with Jon. The only solution that makes sense to me, there are enough indications that all three of them are the author. So perhaps they are.

[Onna Lewyys]

I dont agree with that anagram proving Mance's literacy. Does this anagram works in Common Tongue or the Old Tongue? We dont know how Abel and Bael are written in their original languages.

Bael and Abel are the names in the Common Tongue. The Common Tongue is what Mance was speaking when he and Jon talked about Bael, and it's what he would be speaking in Winterfell when he calls himself Abel. So how the names would be written in another language is irrelevant. In order to rearrange the letters in a word to make a new word, Mance would not only have to know the letters themselves, but also how to spell, which only comes into play when reading or writing.

As for how Mance learned to read, even if no one in the NW took special care to teach him, it is possible for people to teach themselves. Castle Black has a pretty extensive library. Of course, you argue that Mance is wild at heart, so he would have no motivation to sit and read; but loving the wild and loving stories are not diametrically opposed. Many people who love having travels and adventures also love to read about travels and adventures. (Just look at Bran: He was an incredibly active boy who loved to run and climb and wanted to be a knight, and he also loves to be told stories!) And it has long been established that Mance loves songs, and what are those songs but stories. His love of stories themselves is ample motivation for him to want to learn to read.