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Mance is illiterate


Mithras

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I think the anagram certainly is evidence to Mance being literate. It could turn out that someone told him that bale and able were the same letters of the names mixed up, because all things are possible. The idea that common does not equal English is silly. Tolkien was a linguist and created many new langues for his books. GRRM commented that he just had no patience or time for that in his writing. Dothraki has been a slap together language making up words as needed and just backtracking to keep them right. The Dothraki Dictionary is a new compilation, probably for use by HBO, and has now been written by someone else, and probably to the relief of GRRM.



To think though that after everything that we know of GRRM that common is not English is just creating an argument just for the sake of it.


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It could always be Mance got someone else to write the letter.

Yeah, OP acknowledged that.

But either way, I find it to be an interesting question.

Before this thread, I was of the opinion that there's no evidence if or if not he has ever been taught to read. Even though I was leaning toward "yes."

But that great find about the anagram convinced me.

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Mance was bright, ambitious, capable, and independent. Just like with a little help some southern slaves taught themselves to read, he could have done the same. Davos did, also with a little help plus an illustrated book. I think Mance was much more intelligent--don't forget he played an instrument and was an amateur bard, knowing many songs. He might have cleverly kept his knowledge hidden, like the protagonist of 12 Years a Slave.

I really like the anagram idea, though it doesn't prove literacy. Neither does what I'm about to add to my earlier quote. It's well proven in RL that playing music requires a certain level of abstraction. Some scientists also see a link between musical ability and mathematics and other disciplines that require intelligence. Moreover, a bard would have to have prodigious memory to have an extensive repertoire of songs. So at the very least we can assume that Mance is very intelligent, capable of an unusual amount of abstractive ability for that time and place, and has a high-capacity and fluid memory. All of these would make him capable of learning something he wanted to learn, especially if he had some help (which we have no evidence of but would not surprise me).

Add that to the anagram and using it as a pseudonym, and I'd bet money that he can read and write...to some extent.

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The ability to memorize many songs is not evidence of literacy. The ballad singers of the Middle Ages were illiterate, and were still capable of memorizing vast amounts of information. Before the invention of the printing press, a great deal of mental training centered on techniques for memorization. That's why all those little ditties that convey information to common people rhyme - it's a memory aid. We don't use that now because we don't need to - we have cheap books.



The use of anagrams, however, does support the claim that Mance could read, and read well. An anagram is a kind of joke that you can only appreciate if you can read AND write well. (Many poor readers spell badly when they write, or make up their own spellings.)



I don't see any evidence that the NW educated their recruits, even though Mormont complained about the lack of literate men. He could have used the maesters at Eastwatch and Shadow Tower to teach classes to key people if that was practical. Apparently it wasn't.



The fact that Mance went over the Wall with a wilding raiding group implies he could fight even at that age (maybe 12-14). As a NW brother, he was a ranger, not a steward. Given how much time he must have spent to develop his fighting skills, he probably didn't spend any time on duty helping the maester. This would seem to require that he knew how to read before he was captured, which is incredibly atypical for a wilding.



Mance is incredibly atypical, though. I'm keeping an open mind, but I'm very curious about his wilding parents. We get that story from Qhorin. Mance may have lied to the Watch about his parents when he was captured; he may be much more than he seems.


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Not that it makes much of a difference, but is it really proven, that Mance was taken south of the Wall?



It's only said, that he was taken as a child when a few raiders were put to the sword. Qhorin could have called them "raiders" because they were known as such to the Night's Watch, even if they weren't currently raiding.



Wouldn't he have been a raider himself, if he was 12-14 and taken south of the Wall? Or at least called "young boy" instead of child, if he was old enaugh to climb the Wall and go raiding with the others?


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Literacy in rangers is a good thing too,they can send back relevant news by raven when necessary.I still hark back to Maeste Aemon,though Mance was at the Shadow Tower,he could still have insisted that Mance was taught literacy by someone.

The anagram seals it for me,though.

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what Maester or Septon would turn down a member of the Night's watch if they came to them and asked them to teach him how to read? He learned to play a lute and far more people know how to read than how to play music. The point its, if he wanted to learn there was every chance he could have. While most are illiterate , not ALL are and there seems to be every indication that Mance was well liked so what would stop him from going to someone that already knew how to read and what would stop them from teaching him?

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Just to show if you've the right LC or Maester around a child could be taught his letters.From Jon 1,ADWD to Gilly.





Your boy will be safe.I will find a wet nurse for him and he'll be raised here at Castle Black under my protection.He'll learn to hunt and ride,to fight with sword and axe and bow.I'll even see that he's taught to read and write.





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  • 1 month later...

Not that it makes much of a difference, but is it really proven, that Mance was taken south of the Wall?

It's only said, that he was taken as a child when a few raiders were put to the sword. Qhorin could have called them "raiders" because they were known as such to the Night's Watch, even if they weren't currently raiding.

Wouldn't he have been a raider himself, if he was 12-14 and taken south of the Wall? Or at least called "young boy" instead of child, if he was old enaugh to climb the Wall and go raiding with the others?

Normally majority of the wildling population are simple villagers. Raiders are only a small portion of them. The NW have no reason to go and kill the simple wildlings in their villages. However, their laws dictate that whoever passes south of the Wall without the leave of Lord Stark or LC of the NW, they should be executed. The raiders are called raiders because they attack the realm. They have a nautral death sentence hanging on their necks. The NW can pursue and hunt the raiders north of the Wall. Simple wildlings should have learned well to stay away from these two groups.

It is also possible that some wildlings help the raiders secretly (like the case of Beric and Smiling Knight). However, there should be a lot of wildlings who despise some of the raiders. We know the kinds of Rattleshirt are despised generally. When Weeper called for men after the defeat by Stannis, only a small portion followed him. I think all these make it more likely that Mance was already hanging with dangerous guys when he was captured and he was already in the process of becoming a raider. Rayder?

Just to show if you've the right LC or Maester around a child could be taught his letters.From Jon 1,ADWD to Gilly.

The key point is the right LC. Jon is a highly unorthodox LC. I believe the old school LC's would consider 90% of his acts as high treason.

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Captured north or south of the wall, if the NW considered Mance old enough to be a raider he would have been executed. The Wildlings respect strength and pluck. If Mance as a little boy grabbed some horse and galloped off to join the raiding party he might very well have been encouraged and praised for his behavior and allowed to stay with them. Possibly with a "don't tell your mother" or "fine but if you get killed it's on your own head."



We have no evidence of Wildlings who read or write, but that does not prove definitively that none of them do. They tend to steal women of the north, and any northern woman who is literate would also teach her children to read. It wouldn't be something they make a big deal of, as it makes little difference to the Wildlings (unless they bring down a NW raven and need to read the message), but it's within the realm of possibility. A north-stolen woman might even teach her kids to read and write as a sort of revenge for being stolen.



Mance could have Stark blood via Bael's adventures with King Stark's daughter. They didn't come out of the crypt until the baby would have been old enough to eat food other than milk. Bael the bard and his lady love could have had twins. She kept one kid, he took the other. Crackpot theory, I know, but it IS possible. And if Mance could go to Winterfell without being noticed, another Wildling might have done the same in generations past and brought back a Stark girl, which is far less crackpot.



Whether the NW would train him or not is moot. The only reason for anyone to learn something that is not required of them is the desire to do so. We do not know whether a young Mance had the desire to learn or not, but we do know that when he decides to do something he does it, no matter how long it takes. Mance is a smart guy. He would have noticed that those members of the Watch who could read and write held an advantage over those who couldn't. He could want that advantage for himself. And knowing his letters could be another reason why the Wildlings still consider him more a crow than one of them. This doesn't prove that he can read, but it does provide evidence that it is not outside the realm of possibility.



It is also possible that he can do basic reading and even writing, but nothing on the level of a maester-trained Lord's son. This would be consistent with self-teaching in the little spare time he had from his NW duties. And it allows for the anagram as well. A middle-ground, if you will. I would not be surprised if Mance has many skills he's kept to himself.



Question regarding the pink letter: do we have any evidence that Ramsay Snow/Bolton can read and write? Some of the Lords of Westeros are illiterate; that's one of the reasons for keeping Maesters. Would Roose have bothered with forcing him to learn?


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Mance doesn't have to be literate to be the author of the letter.



The letter arrives by raven, we know due to a chapter from TWOW that



most ravens only fly to one location, therefore Mance had to have had the assistance of a Maester in getting the letter tied to the right raven.



Since the Maesters aren't Western Union or your telegraph company of choice there has to be some degree of agreement between Mance and a Maester who has a raven that flies to Castle Black, whether that was achieved through coercion or collaboration it is impossible to say, but that maester could have been the scribe who wrote down the message that Mance wanted to say.



The whole situation is still mysterious.


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  • 2 weeks later...

Mance doesn't have to be literate to be the author of the letter.

The letter arrives by raven, we know due to a chapter from TWOW that

most ravens only fly to one location, therefore Mance had to have had the assistance of a Maester in getting the letter tied to the right raven.

Since the Maesters aren't Western Union or your telegraph company of choice there has to be some degree of agreement between Mance and a Maester who has a raven that flies to Castle Black, whether that was achieved through coercion or collaboration it is impossible to say, but that maester could have been the scribe who wrote down the message that Mance wanted to say.

The whole situation is still mysterious.

Not only that, we have six spearwives whose past we know nothing about and Theon who is most definitely literate.

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Captured north or south of the wall, if the NW considered Mance old enough to be a raider he would have been executed.

I don't agree. Rangers are the most important members of the NW and they are the hardest to train. We are shown that the wildlings know the wild better than most of the rangers (maybe except a few people). I think the NW takes their chances when they find a young and moldable raider like Mance.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Therefore, Mance was half a raider himself when he was captured. He never learned to obey. It is better to assume that he was never given a maester's lessons. Rather he must have been trained as a ranger all along.

I was just watching the Game of Thrones BluRay extras for season 3.

There's a section called "Inside the Wildlings." In this section, GRRM himself says, and I quote "Mance is a wildling by birth, but he was captured as an infant by the Night's Watch, who they brought back and raised."

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