R + L = J v 70

[merlin67]

Ok first post, so forgive me if I am missing something but I did try to scan the forums before posting this. I am 2/3 through my re-read of the series, and have to admit I have never heard or picked up on this theory before seeing it here in this forum just this morning. The first thought that occurs to me, though, is, the last thing I remember about Jon is him being stabbed by nights watch guys. Is there a scene after that in DwD that I am missing to show he doesn't die from that attack, or is it just speculation right now that he will survive? I have to admit it was almost a year ago that I finished DwD so my memory is fuzzy. I am hoping when I get through this re-read I will know more.

[Greymoon]

huh...

So during the BwB London meet-up earlier this evening, GRRM's Significant Other, Parris, turned up (possibly one of the nicest people you will ever meet). During discussions about the series, she reiterated a point that she has made before, that R+L=J is an extremely obvious thing to do in the series, and George doesn't do obvious, leaving the likelihood of that theory being correct much reduced.

As quoted by Han Snow... I think I recall that this quote was discussed at some point? what was the conclusion?

Anyway...it's an ideal opportunity to bring up this little...thing...please don't kill me ;) We were talking about "twists" on the heretic forum some time ago; whereby it occurred to me that Arthur Dayne = Lancelot... and whatever happened at the Tower of Joy, there's an Arthur/Lancelot/Guinevere love triangle to take into account... :P

Gerold Hightower, Rhaegar, Ned, Howland, Oswell Whent...they might all have believed in R+L= J, but Lyanna (and Arthur) might have had doubts... lol.

I ask for mercy and a quick death...

[Ygrain]

Ok first post, so forgive me if I am missing something but I did try to scan the forums before posting this. I am 2/3 through my re-read of the series, and have to admit I have never heard or picked up on this theory before seeing it here in this forum just this morning. The first thought that occurs to me, though, is, the last thing I remember about Jon is him being stabbed by nights watch guys. Is there a scene after that in DwD that I am missing to show he doesn't die from that attack, or is it just speculation right now that he will survive? I have to admit it was almost a year ago that I finished DwD so my memory is fuzzy. I am hoping when I get through this re-read I will know more.

If you recall the Varamyr prologue, it has been speculated that Jon will be "hosted" in Ghost's body for some time and be resurrected later, perhaps by Mel. Or he may not be dead at all. When asked about this, GRRM replied something like "So you think he is dead?" He most certainly isn't, or at least not permanently - the same cliffy was used with Arya before the Twins or with Brienne.

huh...

As quoted by Han Snow... I think I recall that this quote was discussed at some point? what was the conclusion?

Anyway...it's an ideal opportunity to bring up this little...thing...please don't kill me ;) We were talking about "twists" on the heretic forum some time ago; whereby it occurred to me that Arthur Dayne = Lancelot... and whatever happened at the Tower of Joy, there's an Arthur/Lancelot/Guinevere love triangle to take into account... :P

Gerold Hightower, Rhaegar, Ned, Howland, Oswell Whent...they might all have believed in R+L= J, but Lyanna (and Arthur) might have had doubts... lol.

I ask for mercy and a quick death...

/coup-de-grace/

[Hoyti_Von_Totiy]

Deamon took up the name of the sword he was given, Blackfyre. Jon could do the same.... Jon Longclaw a total wildling king name.

Bastard sword names for bastard kings.

[MtnLion]

Deamon took up the name of the sword he was given, Blackfyre. Jon could do the same.... Jon Longclaw a total wildling king name.

Bastard sword names for bastard kings.

You will find very little traction in that approach. The scene at the tower indicates that Jon is legitimate.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

huh...

As quoted by Han Snow... I think I recall that this quote was discussed at some point? what was the conclusion?

Anyway...it's an ideal opportunity to bring up this little...thing...please don't kill me ;) We were talking about "twists" on the heretic forum some time ago; whereby it occurred to me that Arthur Dayne = Lancelot... and whatever happened at the Tower of Joy, there's an Arthur/Lancelot/Guinevere love triangle to take into account... :P

Gerold Hightower, Rhaegar, Ned, Howland, Oswell Whent...they might all have believed in R+L= J, but Lyanna (and Arthur) might have had doubts... lol.

I ask for mercy and a quick death...

Since we can be pretty sure the facts & clues don't fit an A+L scenario, I think I can talk you off this wall. (I've been up there myself ;) )

GRRM does use a lot of Arthurian parallels, but I've found they don't always go in straight lines, as discussed here:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87114-a-closer-look-at-arthur-gwenhyfar-and-lancelot

There is a strong parallel to Lancelot and Gwenhyfar in the ToJ narrative, but I think in that case you can safely compare R+L to L+G

:)

[Alia of the knife]

Since we can be pretty sure the facts & clues don't fit an A+L scenario, I think I can talk you off this wall. (I've been up there myself ;) )

GRRM does use a lot of Arthurian parallels, but I've found they don't always go in straight lines, as discussed here:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87114-a-closer-look-at-arthur-gwenhyfar-and-lancelot

There is a strong parallel to Lancelot and Gwenhyfar in the ToJ narrative, but I think in that case you can safely compare R+L to L+G

:)

Agreed 😊

[serdog]

One thing I keep coming back is Jon's eyes which are and forgive me I don't have the word for word Quote " Such a dark Grey almost black" Eric Dayne's Eyes are called such a dark blue almost black Darkstars are also mistaken for black, on the Tragaryen said Egg's eyes are a mistake for almost black, and Rhaegar is refered to as having dark eyes. It also often brought home that people see what they expect to see. For me therefore I could see Jon having Dark Purple Eyes rather then Dark Grey, of course even if this came out it would all for N+A=J

Also look at Dark Grey eyes on Google images and say that a dark Purple could not be mistake for that

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

huh...

As quoted by Han Snow... I think I recall that this quote was discussed at some point? what was the conclusion?

Anyway...it's an ideal opportunity to bring up this little...thing...please don't kill me ;) We were talking about "twists" on the heretic forum some time ago; whereby it occurred to me that Arthur Dayne = Lancelot... and whatever happened at the Tower of Joy, there's an Arthur/Lancelot/Guinevere love triangle to take into account... :P

Gerold Hightower, Rhaegar, Ned, Howland, Oswell Whent...they might all have believed in R+L= J, but Lyanna (and Arthur) might have had doubts... lol.

I ask for mercy and a quick death...

I disagree that R+L=J is that obvious. It seems obvious to people like us who have hashed it out dozens and dozens of times and aggregated evidence that's otherwise spread out across hundreds of pages. But to Joe Average reader, it really isn't that obvious. And what is she going to say? "Oh you're right, Jon really is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son"?

And Arthur/Lyanna completely negates things like the blue rose in Dany's vision. Not to mention that if Arthur and Lyanna were doin' it, given the isolated nature of the Tower, I find it absurd that Whent and Hightower would be unaware of it.

[Disputatious]

That is an interesting quote from Parris ("George does not do obvious") in that it, if taking seriously will put various of us hereabouts, also GRRM himself perhaps, in double binds of one sort or another.

[JNR]

I disagree that R+L=J is that obvious. It seems obvious to people like us who have hashed it out dozens and dozens of times and aggregated evidence that's otherwise spread out across hundreds of pages. But to Joe Average reader, it really isn't that obvious.

The exceedingly detailed theory as it exists in this forum is far from obvious, that's true.

What Parris is talking about is just the hidden heir trope, as constantly trotted out in fantasy prior to SoIaF (Wheel of Time, Belgariad, etc). That trope is obvious, and so is the logical application of it to SoIaF.

And what is she going to say? "Oh you're right, Jon really is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son"?

Is that her only other option, really? She's as schooled as anybody on Earth in GRRM's standard evasive maneuvers.

She could, for instance, say "there's lots of cheese on that pizza" or "keep reading" or she could say nothing at all. No need to issue such a blanket statement of doubt, multiple times in public over the years.

Not to mention that if Arthur and Lyanna were doin' it, given the isolated nature of the Tower, I find it absurd that Whent and Hightower would be unaware of it.

Or would tolerate it for a minute.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What Parris is talking about is just the hidden heir trope, as constantly trotted out in fantasy prior to SoIaF (Wheel of Time, Belgariad, etc). That trope is obvious, and so is the logical application of it to SoIaF.

And that trope may be obvious, sure, but there are numerous ways for GRRM to subvert it while still making Jon the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

And that trope may be obvious, sure, but there are numerous ways for GRRM to subvert it while still making Jon the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Is there a fantasy series where the hidden heir finds out before the end or becomes a rallying point, I hope Jon has to decide maybe more than once whether to reject/ignore the truth or accept it. I will be disappointed if its oh by the way you're the king at the end ala Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn (still a good series)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Is there a fantasy series where the hidden heir finds out before the end or becomes a rallying point, I hope Jon has to decide maybe more than once whether to reject/ignore the truth or accept it. I will be disappointed if its oh by the way you're the king at the end ala Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn (still a good series)

I think the most likely subversions are:

1. Jon finds out he's the hidden heir and is devastated/horrified by it, because so much of his identity is tied up in being Ned's son.

2. Jon rejects the throne outright even though he has the rightful claim, because he just does not want it.

3. Jon dies before he can assume the throne.

4. Jon comes to terms with his heritage but chooses to identify as a Stark rather than as a Targaryen, even though it's his Targaryen heritage that gives him claim over the entire dominion. (I also think it'd be hilarious if the Targs thought one of theirs was the PtwP, and the guy ends up preferring his Stark side, making his Targaryen-ness entirely incidental.)

5. Jon ends up as an antagonist.

I could see any of those things happening, all of which would be a departure from the Harry Potter-ish thing where the hidden hero discovers who he is, is delighted and is whisked off to fantasyland.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

6. Jon finds out but there is no proof to his claim

Ultimately leading to any of above

[Lyse Stark]

I think the most likely subversions are:

1. Jon finds out he's the hidden heir and is devastated/horrified by it, because so much of his identity is tied up in being Ned's son.

2. Jon rejects the throne outright even though he has the rightful claim, because he just does not want it.

3. Jon dies before he can assume the throne.

4. Jon comes to terms with his heritage but chooses to identify as a Stark rather than as a Targaryen, even though it's his Targaryen heritage that gives him claim over the entire dominion. (I also think it'd be hilarious if the Targs thought one of theirs was the PtwP, and the guy ends up preferring his Stark side, making his Targaryen-ness entirely incidental.)

5. Jon ends up as an antagonist.

I could see any of those things happening, all of which would be a departure from the Harry Potter-ish thing where the hidden hero discovers who he is, is delighted and is whisked off to fantasyland.

6. Jon finds out but there is no proof to his claim

Ultimately leading to any of above

Or

7: Jon may synthesize his two divergent identities into a new House, called Icefyre, Targarstark or Stargaryen.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Or

7: Jon may synthesize his two divergent identities into a new House, called Icefyre, Targarstark or Stargaryen.

Then he has his username all set to join the forum :)

[J. Stargaryen]

Or

7: Jon may synthesize his two divergent identities into a new House, called Icefyre, Targarstark or Stargaryen.

I like butterbumps! King Jon Snow idea if it's going to be a "new" House.

Then he has his username all set to join the forum :)

Lol. Exactly.

[Jory Cassel]

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tbh, I'm not even sold on the idea that a subversion of the hidden heir trope is to be applied to Jon and his situation, it could just as well be FAegon, who, as it turns out, is not really the hidden heir he is made out to be.

[Han Snow]

tbh, I'm not even sold on the idea that a subversion of the hidden heir trope is to be applied to Jon and his situation, it could just as well be FAegon, who, as it turns out, is not really the hidden heir he is made out to be.

Also, there is hardly a new thing to be invented in literature, everything has been done before. And everything is cliche (like people here like to repeat oh so often). What separates bad writers from the good ones is how they apply their writing skills on the already seen material, how they mold it and twist it.

It is impossible to re-invent the wheel, but you sure can upgrade the technology that is used to produce it.

Besides for all the hidden heirs out there, there is the same amount of plain peasants saving the world and marrying the princess. Which one is more cliche?