R + L = J v 70

[FrozenFire3]

Also, there is hardly a new thing to be invented in literature, everything has been done before. And everything is cliche (like people here like to repeat oh so often). What separates bad writers from the good ones is how they apply their writing skills on the already seen material, how they mold it and twist it.

It is impossible to re-invent the wheel, but you sure can upgrade the technology that is used to produce it.

Besides for all the hidden heirs out there, there is the same amount of plain peasants saving the world and marrying the princess. Which one is more cliche?

I couldn't agree more. I'll never stress enough the difference between trope/cliché and archetype. Besides I'm not really that invested in one story development or the other. It's GRRM's story. HIS and only HIS. I'm in for the ride and trust in his ability to make it unique and unforgettable. It's the journey that counts, not the destination.

[Greymoon]

And Arthur/Lyanna completely negates things like the blue rose in Dany's vision. Not to mention that if Arthur and Lyanna were doin' it, given the isolated nature of the Tower, I find it absurd that Whent and Hightower would be unaware of it.

For what it’s worth, I'm not trying to argue for A+L, I've done it before, sometime last year not because I believed it, but because I thought “why not try that angle and see where it leads?” and I do believe the R+L = J theory. However, that quote from Parris is interesting, and I'm unsure that it should be discounted right away - it is explicitly the R+L=J angle that is mentioned in the quote and called "too obvious" not necessarily the hidden heir trope. Though I'm sure the fact that this is only a testimony from a meeting with Parris and no direct quote makes the true intend of her words (her very words even) questionable.

Anyway.

What I don't get is why the blue rose should symbolize R+L, when IMHO, the blue rose symbolizes Lyanna, and only Lyanna. Blue roses are grown in Winterfell, a blue rose appears in the Bael the Bard story... for me, the blue rose, the "winter rose" is a daughter of Winterfell, not a symbol of a union or marriage or anything that pertains to Rhaegar. Yes, I know that the crown given to Lyanna is made of blue roses, but the symbolism for "daughter of Winterfell" is much stronger IMO, since it so very clearly appears in the Bael the Bard story - and there the analogy between rose and daughter is rather explicit.

[Mia B.]

Or

7: Jon may synthesize his two divergent identities into a new House, called Icefyre, Targarstark or Stargaryen.

I've never thought of that but I'm loving that option. He'll have to reassemble his whole identity and values once he realizes he's stark/targaryen, so why not just create a new one

[J. Stargaryen]

For what it’s worth, I'm not trying to argue for A+L, I've done it before, sometime last year not because I believed it, but because I thought “why not try that angle and see where it leads?” and I do believe the R+L = J theory. However, that quote from Parris is interesting, and I'm unsure that it should be discounted right away - it is explicitly the R+L=J angle that is mentioned in the quote and called "too obvious" not necessarily the hidden heir trope. Though I'm sure the fact that this is only a testimony from a meeting with Parris and no direct quote makes the true intend of her words (her very words even) questionable.

Anyway.

What I don't get is why the blue rose should symbolize R+L, when IMHO, the blue rose symbolizes Lyanna, and only Lyanna. Blue roses are grown in Winterfell, a blue rose appears in the Bael the Bard story... for me, the blue rose, the "winter rose" is a daughter of Winterfell, not a symbol of a union or marriage or anything that pertains to Rhaegar. Yes, I know that the crown given to Lyanna is made of blue roses, but the symbolism for "daughter of Winterfell" is much stronger IMO, since it so very clearly appears in the Bael the Bard story - and there the analogy between rose and daughter is rather explicit.

In both blue rose instances, Bael and R+L=J, the daughter of Winterfell gave birth to a son.

As for your analysis, I believe you're looking at it from an in story POV. GRRM does a bait and switch in the Bael story. Ygritte basically says that Bael traded the rose for the daughter, but that's not entirely true. Bael actually gave Winterfell a son and heir through the female line.

[Wolfking007]

In both blue rose instances, Bael and R+L=J, the daughter of Winterfell gives birth to a son.

As for your analysis, I believe you're looking at it from an in story POV. GRRM does a little bit of bait and switch in the Bael story. Ygritte basically says that Bael traded the rose for the daughter, but that's not entirely true. Bael actually gave Winterfell a son and heir. A female line Stark.

And now Rhaegar has done the same.

[J. Stargaryen]

And now Rhaegar has done the same.

Exactly. :thumbsup:

[jet199]

R+L=J is only obvious because GRRM himself put the hints and foreshadowing in the books. If he didn't want people to guess he should have left the blue roses out. I do think the trope will be undermined, I no longer think Jon will be TPTWP and I don't think Jon is going to be nice about being king, but I doubt R+L=J will be proved wrong. I think that is pretty bitter sweet, sweet ending would be if Jon got to meet his I've of his parents. I had a terrible thought today that if Jon and Arya meet before R+L=J is revealed then she will tell him his mother is alive.

[Black Crow]

And now Rhaegar has done the same.

The point being that like Bael's son; Jon is a son of Winterfell. It is his mother who is important not his father.

[Jory Cassel]

R+L=J is only obvious because GRRM himself put the hints and foreshadowing in the books. If he didn't want people to guess he should have left the blue roses out. I do think the trope will be undermined, I no longer think Jon will be TPTWP and I don't think Jon is going to be nice about being king, but I doubt R+L=J will be proved wrong. I think that is pretty bitter sweet, sweet ending would be if Jon got to meet his I've of his parents. I had a terrible thought today that if Jon and Arya meet before R+L=J is revealed then she will tell him his mother is alive.

The reveal itself is already "bittersweet" - sweet as Jon learns he is not truly a bastard but trueborn, bitter as he learns that his biggest idol whose son he believed he was is not truly his father.

[UVA]

The point being that like Bael's son; Jon is a son of Winterfell. It is his mother who is important not his father.

I'm curious as to why you say this. One could argue that if Jon is a son of Winterfell and all that it entails (Northern concerns, Long Night, etc.), and that this is firmly based on his upbringing through Ned and the belief that he's Ned's son (and not Lyanna's) at Winterfell, his biological parentage becomes irrelevant.

[J. Stargaryen]

I'm curious as to why you say this. One could argue that if Jon is a son of Winterfell and all that it entails (Northern the concerns, Long Night, etc.), and that this is firmly based on his upbringing through Ned and the belief that he's Ned's son (and not Lyanna's) at Winterfell, his biological parentage becomes irrelevant.

Because he hates Rhaegar.

[Alia of the knife]

On the subject of bitterness, I wonder just how well Jon would be received by "Aegon."

[UVA]

Because he hates Rhaegar.

Ah, I was wondering if there was an anti-Targaryen bias here.

[FrozenFire3]

The point being that like Bael's son; Jon is a son of Winterfell. It is his mother who is important not his father.

A sort of narrative parthenogenesis?

Difficult to believe an author builds such a huge plot twist, with its solid ice/fire symbolic foundations, bothering to mention the 'unimportant' father more than 200 times to make him simply, well, unimportant.

[Varmyr]

R+L=J is only obvious because GRRM himself put the hints and foreshadowing in the books. If he didn't want people to guess he should have left the blue roses out. I do think the trope will be undermined, I no longer think Jon will be TPTWP and I don't think Jon is going to be nice about being king, but I doubt R+L=J will be proved wrong. I think that is pretty bitter sweet, sweet ending would be if Jon got to meet his I've of his parents. I had a terrible thought today that if Jon and Arya meet before R+L=J is revealed then she will tell him his mother is alive.

She is far more likely to kill him.

[Ghost's Shadow]

In bad fanfiction perhaps, yes.

[Greymoon]

In both blue rose instances, Bael and R+L=J, the daughter of Winterfell gave birth to a son.

As for your analysis, I believe you're looking at it from an in story POV. GRRM does a bait and switch in the Bael story. Ygritte basically says that Bael traded the rose for the daughter, but that's not entirely true. Bael actually gave Winterfell a son and heir through the female line.

That might be true, but either way, the blue rose has little if anything to do with Rhaegar, even in the way you understand it. It's just that generally speaking saying that the symbolism of the blue rose is negated if Jon is not the son of Rhaegar doesn't make much sense, since as you've stated Bael gave Winterfell a son and heir through the female line. Bael himself is almost incidental here, however. He's the "sire", but IMO, he could have been anyone else, and his identity is not really important. The blue rose doesn’t say that R+L = J. All it says is that Lyanna is Jon’s mother - in the same way that Maege Mormont is Dacey's mother.

The blue rose symbolism + the story of Bael the bard rather makes me think that Jon is bastard born and not a true born Targaryen.

[Ygrain]

That might be true, but either way, the blue rose has little if anything to do with Rhaegar, even in the way you understand it. It's just that generally speaking saying that the symbolism of the blue rose is negated if Jon is not the son of Rhaegar doesn't make much sense, since as you've stated Bael gave Winterfell a son and heir through the female line. Bael himself is almost incidental here, however. He's the "sire", but IMO, he could have been anyone else, and his identity is not really important. The blue rose doesn’t say that R+L = J. All it says is that Lyanna is Jon’s mother - in the same way that Maege Mormont is Dacey's mother.

The blue rose symbolism + the story of Bael the bard rather makes me think that Jon is bastard born and not a true born Targaryen.

??? It's the crown that he gives her, and it's what she is holding on her deathbed, the flowers that Rhaegar must have given her (perhaps it is even the very crown). The blue roses are very much interconnected with their relationship, not just with Lyanna herself.

[Greymoon]

A sort of narrative parthenogenesis?

Difficult to believe an author builds such a huge plot twist, with its solid ice/fire symbolic foundations, bothering to mention the 'unimportant' father more than 200 times to make him simply, well, unimportant.

Not every one believes that Jon is some sort of embodiment of Ice/Fire. That sounds ridiculous IMO, and is something I'd expect in a bad fantasy novel - just not in asoiaf. The Ice and fire dichotomy exist on plenty of different levels in the story; though I really don't think that either element can be embodied even symbolically by a single person.

Jon is human, as was Rhaegar, as was Lyanna. Rhaegar wasn't fire made flesh, nor was Lyanna Ice. But if Jon were to be anything in particular it wouldn't imo, be a mix of Ice/Fire, but rather plain old ice - his whole story arc so far has to do with the frozen Wall and the lands beyond, with the north and cold, and winter. The fire element is currently, imo, associated to Dany, Stannis/Melisandre, Thoros of Myr and UnCat; Victarion and Moqorro....all factions I hope Jon stays well away from - and honestly, I can't see that anyone would still believe that fire is a force of "good," considering the aforementioned.

Rhaegar turning out to be unimportant in Jon’s arc would be the (one of the) famous twist we all expect when we say that GRRM likes to subvert fantasy tropes.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Are there any hints given that Rhaegar might have loved Lyanna? I know Dany says it, but she wasn't born when it all happened, so she must have heard it from Viserys, who was only a little boy at the time and who wouldn't have known precisely either. Barristan also says something along the line of "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna", but would Barristan actually know, giving that Rhaegar wasn't in KL for the most time of the war, or would he just conclude it, knowing Rhaegar's character (in which case, he might be wrong about it).

I am sure this has been discussed before in one of the many versions of this thread :) but I was just wondering about it and thought I´d ask it here, where the subject is so heavily discussed.

I was wondering about this, in order to make some small conclusions about whether or not Rhaegar actually loved Lyanna, or if he used her to fullfill his prophecy.

On the subject of bitterness, I wonder just how well Jon would be received by "Aegon."

Aegon would still be the elder of the two, so he wouldn't have to worry