R + L = J v 70

[The guy from the Vale]

I do know what a figure of speech is, which is why I've written "even symbolically." Lots of people on the forums keep bringing up that Jon is both Ice and Fire, or that he's important because he's half Stark, half Targaryen. Or that there'll be an ultimate "win" over the Long Night, that the dragons will be instrumental in the "fight" etc. etc. This is also what I understood you were implying with your post. I don't agree with that perspective. Further, as things stand I can’t image Jon even remotely embracing a Targaryen identity. But we can leave it at that.

Why wouldn't he embrace it, though? I agree that the Stark side will always be more important to him, but I don't see Jon hating the Targaryens either. His childhood idols were Daeron I and Aemon the Dragonknight; the one Targaryen he got to know, Maester Aemon, was a man whose advice he appreciated. Why would he not embrace that side of himself too?

[Greymoon]

You better read my post again about Jon balancing the "icy"and "fiery" aspects of his personality, and maybe you will understand that in order to lead the fight against the Others, he need to find balance within himself. And I think both the dragons and the Others are symptoms of a world gone out of whack, and need to brought back in balance. So if it might be possible that in order for the balance to return, both the Others and the dragons need to die.

Well I don't believe there will be a fight against "The Others." I think the Others are part of the old races who have been marginalized over the centuries. They want to reclaim their territory, some want to do it with force (thus the attacks) others in a more subtle manner. But ultimately, these old races, IMO, need a human champion to represent them: Bloodraven and Bran fit in that category, and hopefully Jon will have his part to play, alongside his other Stark cousins.

The way I see it, the balance is currently tipping in favor for “fire,” – “life,” “summer,” “heat,” “humans,” “dragons,” “Shadow binding,” “New Gods,” etc.

It follows that to “restore” the balance, you must strengthen/liberate “ice,” – “death,” “old races,” “cold,” “winter,” “Old gods,” etc. in brief, that is why I cannot rightly see Jon as a mix – a mix would not change the game.

Evidently, we have a very different understanding on how the story will develop – but at this point in time it is rather futile to speculate anyway.

[Greymoon]

Why wouldn't he embrace it, though? I agree that the Stark side will always be more important to him, but I don't see Jon hating the Targaryens either. His childhood idols were Daeron I and Aemon the Dragonknight; the one Targaryen he got to know, Maester Aemon, was a man whose advice he appreciated. Why would he not embrace that side of himself too?

There's a difference between childhood heroes, and being told your whole identity was a lie ...at this point it's difficult to tell how Jon would react, but in terms of affection the Stark side will I believe, always be more important - especially if he discovers that Rickon, Bran, Sansa and Arya are still alive - though their memory alone would be a great motivation to claim a Stark heritage above all else. The likelihood is increased if Robb named Jon his heir.

[Fire Eater]

In terms of ice and fire aspects (yin-yang) regarding Jon let's have a list:

The Targaryen heir, Rhaegar's son, raised by a fervent supporter of Robert

A member of the NW who rode with the wildlings

Born in Dorne in the South but raised in the North

A Northman with a claim to the throne in the South

A Snow who is black

Descended from both the Starks and Targaryens who fought each other

A bastard (the lowest rung) who is a king (highest rung)

His birthplace was named the Tower of Joy, which hosted a tragic event with the deaths of 9 people (Lyanna, the three KG, Ethan Glover, Theo Wull, William Dustin, Mark Ryswell and Martyn Cassel)

The Red Faith's messiah who worships the Old Gods

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

In terms of ice and fire aspects (yin-yang) regarding Jon let's have a list:

The Targaryen heir, Rhaegar's son, raised by a fervent supporter of Robert

A member of the NW who rode with the wildlings

Born in Dorne in the South but raised in the North

A Northman with a claim to the throne in the South

A Snow who is black

Descended from both the Starks and Targaryens who fought each other

A bastard (the lowest rung) who is a king (highest rung)

His birthplace was named the Tower of Joy, which hosted a tragic event with the deaths of 9 people (Lyanna, the three KG, Ethan Glover, Theo Wull, William Dustin, Mark Ryswell and Martyn Cassel)

The Red Faith's messiah who worships the Old Gods

& is hier (rightful King) to a land that worships the Seven.

[Lyse Stark]

The Red Faith's messiah who worships the Old Gods

That's interesting. Jon worships the Old Gods because they are the only thing he has ever known, and he is perfectly comfortable with them. R'hllor is an alien concept to him.

And I mentioned in two other threads that Jon, being a Old Gods follower would have problems with the Targaryen incest because it goes against his beliefs. It is considered one of three abominations in his religion, and after what he saw in Craster's keep, I have no doubt that Jon would despise it with a white-hot passion. Hell, I can imagine him writing a royal decree that prohibits brother-sister, father-daughter, mother-son, uncle-niece and aunt-nephew marriages among the nobility, especially among the royal family because the idea of incest sickens him.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

That's interesting. Jon worships the Old Gods because they are the only thing he has ever known, and he is perfectly comfortable with them. R'hllor is an alien concept to him.

And I mentioned in two other threads that Jon, being a Old Gods follower would have problems with the Targaryen incest because it goes against his beliefs. It is considered one of three abominations in his religion, and after what he saw in Craster's keep, I have no doubt that Jon would despise it with a white-hot passion. Hell, I can imagine him writing a royal decree that prohibits brother-sister, father-daughter, mother-son, uncle-niece and aunt-nephew marriages among the nobility, especially among the royal family because the idea of incest sickens him.

Bittersweet ending? Marrying Dany then finding out they are related?

[Fire Eater]

Hell, I can imagine him writing a royal decree that prohibits brother-sister, father-daughter, mother-son, uncle-niece and aunt-nephew marriages among the nobility, especially among the royal family because the idea of incest sickens him.

I see that too, a long overdue reform.

Bittersweet ending? Marrying Dany then finding out they are related?

I actually I think the bittersweet ending for Dany would be that her family regains the IT, but she doesn't get to sit it.

I think what will separate Jon from all the other claimants to the IT, including Dany, is that he doesn't see the Crown as an end in and of itself, but as a means to an end: the defense of the realm against the Others.

[Bluecore]

Hi, first post. I'll keep it simple, as I have not re-read the series and have not taken in as much of this as many of you have.

The evidence that really sells me on the R+L=J theory is the battle at the Tower of Joy. The only plausible explanation for a bloodied and dying Lyanna Stark in a remote tower, guarded by three of the most prestigious Kingsguard, at a time where the entire royal line is in imminent danger, is that Lyanna is carrying a child of Rhaegar Targaryen. For me, I can think of, nor have I read, any logical explanation for this except the one that affirms the theory. That, of course, to go hand in hand with other circumstantial evidence, such as Ned's actions, etc....So, I pretty much approach this theory as a fact when I examine other things.

As for the notion that Jon represents some sort of embodiment of Ice and Fire because of his parentage, I suppose I could buy that. For me though, my analysis of Jon has him as "Ice" in this line of thought. He is a product of the North; he thinks he is a Stark, and in practice he is. He was raised by them and lived among them his entire life. That said, I think of that issue more in the terms of the "Dragon having three heads" line of thinking. I think Jon represents the Ice and Danerys represents the Fire, and "Aegon" (who in some form I do think is a Targaryen, whether it be Aerys+Ashara @ Harrenhal or by the baby-swapping strategy) may turn out to represent something else I haven't been able to articulate or don't have the information to plug in to the metaphor practically, but a Targaryen nonetheless. The dragon had to have three heads so it would make sense he is a Targaryen in some form. I think the three of them together will play a critical, if not the pivotal, role of the story at large in the last two books.

[WhiteOwl18]

Why wouldn't he embrace it, though? I agree that the Stark side will always be more important to him, but I don't see Jon hating the Targaryens either. His childhood idols were Daeron I and Aemon the Dragonknight; the one Targaryen he got to know, Maester Aemon, was a man whose advice he appreciated. Why would he not embrace that side of himself too?

I completely agree.

[Varmyr]

That's interesting. Jon worships the Old Gods because they are the only thing he has ever known, and he is perfectly comfortable with them. R'hllor is an alien concept to him.

And I mentioned in two other threads that Jon, being a Old Gods follower would have problems with the Targaryen incest because it goes against his beliefs. It is considered one of three abominations in his religion, and after what he saw in Craster's keep, I have no doubt that Jon would despise it with a white-hot passion. Hell, I can imagine him writing a royal decree that prohibits brother-sister, father-daughter, mother-son, uncle-niece and aunt-nephew marriages among the nobility, especially among the royal family because the idea of incest sickens him.

Yeah, that is where GRRM is going, he's going to have Jon claim the Iron Thrown & start making Royal Decrees, and among the first will be you outlaw incest. Then Jon will dissolve the Iron Thrown to form seven democratic ruled states, everyone will hold hands, drink free milk-of-the-poppy, and never go hungry again.

What a joke, I don't think you were being serious, but if you were then we must be reading different books.

[Varmyr]

Why wouldn't he embrace it, though? I agree that the Stark side will always be more important to him, but I don't see Jon hating the Targaryens either. His childhood idols were Daeron I and Aemon the Dragonknight; the one Targaryen he got to know, Maester Aemon, was a man whose advice he appreciated. Why would he not embrace that side of himself too?

They Jon that we'll see in the TWOW and ADOS is probably not going to be the sentimental type who who will embrace much of anything.

[Ghost's Shadow]

You do not know that. Best not to expect him to eventually change all that much. I think he'll be angry at first, both at what happened and what he might have learned in his coma (BR/B approaching him like BR did with B?), but to imply that his character will make a 180° turn is a bit silly.

[Ygrain]

You do not know that. Best not to expect him to eventually change all that much. I think he'll be angry at first, both at what happened and what he might have learned in his coma (BR/B approaching him like BR did with B?), but to imply that his character will make a 180° turn is a bit silly.

That will depend also on how he will be brought back. I sincerely hope we won't be getting UnJon, but if we do...

[Ghost's Shadow]

But best not to overshoot with one's fantasy too much. That only creates disappointment later on. Some theories to me sound like they're so much out there that George will probably never be able to satisfy the people in support of them.

[Quentyn Kartell]

I don't see Jon marrying Dany. They are not a good match for one another. Plus what would be the purpose of Dany marrying Jon. Jon will not be King. For 5 Books Jon has relegated himself to being a bastard. Even if he is Rhaegar's son, he's still bastard. Bastard's have no claim, which is why Ramsay had to become a Bolton to have Winterfell. When Stannis offered him Winterfell and the Stark name, he said "No". Jon will always be a Snow. It's more possible, in my opinion, that Jon will be the Night's King and King Beyond The Wall.

[Alia of the knife]

I believe GRRM himself said that Jons character would turn much more grey.

As far as the direction Martin goes, like FF3, I'm comfortable with what he wants to do and am along for the ride.

And while the title of his series could mean many different things from a song/saga/tale/poem of the divergent journeys of two opposite familes, to one with the theme of "balance," I'm on board with the latter as well.

I don't think the Others, or the dragons are "good," or "evil," but a symptom of something that needs to be put right, so Jons function may not actually be to destroy the Others, or control the dragons but to be in synthesis, (the combining of different subsances to form a coherent whole), with them.

If Martin didn't want to highlight the idea of balance or imbalance as is sometimes the primary reason for apocolyptic themes, then he could have written a book about Ice and Lions, Ice and Sun, Sun and Fire, Roses and Weeds, etc.

In most stories with "end-of-world" themes, the notion of imbalance and corruption, (i.e., the Nights Watch, the Kingsguard, the Citadel, the Wall, KL, institutions that might have started out with honor and good intentions but have fallen into decay), are heavily prevalent, waiting on the one leader with the right elements to set things right.

And that person to me seems to be Jon.

On the idea of prophesy, one of Martins other themes/warnings is getting it wrong. The irony is that the prophesy was likely interpreted backwards, because Jon was not necessarily born to fulfill prophesy, but was conditioned to fulfill prophesy through the way he lived his life and his heritage will play a part in that.

If Rhaegar had lived and taken him back to KL and along with his other children, raised him to fulfill prophesy, he probably would not be what he is.

This is why Rhaegar at the TOJ with Lyanna, perhaps living for the first time, and in the process, begetting Jon, did fulfill prophesy, because he wasn't trying.

The last heir, a prince, of a dying House whose life was spared with a promise whose "fire," (fire in many religions and cultures is also a symbol for truth,) is yet to be born.

"Kill the boy, " (a lie), "and let the man," (truth), "be born."

A second birth from "death" that releases him from any of his vows or constraints.

Perhaps while he is asleep, he will dream of the dark bowls of KL, and he will hear the stone dragons beckon him as well as the ashes of the old Targaryen kings, whereas the old kings of Winter in the crypts of Winterfell rejected him for not belonging.

[Lyse Stark]

Yeah, that is where GRRM is going, he's going to have Jon claim the Iron Thrown & start making Royal Decrees, and among the first will be you outlaw incest. Then Jon will dissolve the Iron Thrown to form seven democratic ruled states, everyone will hold hands, drink free milk-of-the-poppy, and never go hungry again.

What a joke, I don't think you were being serious, but if you were then we must be reading different books.

I just pointed out that this decree that Jon writes will be a important step toward acknowledging the madness in the Targaryen line, and I said that his experiences at Craster's keep has deeply affected him.

If you saw a man raping his daughters and sister to make babies, offer his sons to ice demons and kept the girls as even more breed mares, there is a high chance that you'll despise him.

[FrozenFire3]

I believe GRRM himself said that Jons character would turn much more grey.

As far as the direction Martin goes, like FF3, I'm comfortable with what he wants to do and am along for the ride.

And while the title of his series could mean many different things from a song/saga/tale/poem of the divergent journeys of two opposite familes, to one with the theme of "balance," I'm on board with the latter as well.

I don't think the Others, or the dragons are "good," or "evil," but a symptom of something that needs to be put right, so Jons function may not actually be to destroy the Others, or control the dragons but to be in synthesis, (the combining of different subsances to form a coherent whole), with them.

If Martin didn't want to highlight the idea of balance or imbalance as is sometimes the primary reason for apocolyptic themes, then he could have written a book about Ice and Lions, Ice and Sun, Sun and Fire, Roses and Weeds, etc.

In most stories with "end-of-world" themes, the notion of imbalance and corruption, (i.e., the Nights Watch, the Kingsguard, the Citadel, the Wall, KL, institutions that might have started out with honor and good intentions but have fallen into decay), are heavily prevalent, waiting on the one leader with the right elements to set things right.

And that person to me seems to be Jon.

And on the idea of prophesy, one of Martins other themes/warnings is getting it wrong. The irony is that the prophesy was likely interpreted backwards, because Jon was not necessarily born to fulfill prophesy, but was conditioned to fulfill prophesy through the way he lived his life and his heritage will play a part in that.

If Rhaegar had lived and taken him back to KL and along with his other children, raised him to fulfill prophesy, he probably would not be what he is.

This is why Rhaegar at the TOJ with Lyanna, perhaps living for the first time, and in the process, begetting Jon, did fulfill prophesy, because he wasn't trying.

The last heir, a prince, of a dying House whose life was spared with a promise whose "fire," (fire in many religions and cultures is also a symbol for truth,) is yet to be born.

"Kill the boy, " (a lie), "and let the man," (truth), "be born."

A second birth from "death" that releases him from any of his vows or constraints.

Perhaps while he is asleep, he will dream of the dark bowls of KL, and he will hear the stone dragons beckon him as well as the ashes of the old Targaryen kings, whereas the old kings of Winter in the crypts of Winterfell rejected him for not belonging.

The part in bold reminds me of an old J.K.Rowling's remark:

In choosing which boy to murder, he was also (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One - to give him tools no other wizard possessed [...] the prophecy (like the one the witches make to Macbeth, if anyone has read the play of the same name) becomes the catalyst for a situation that would never have occurred if it had not been made.

Instead of taking a life Rhaegar gives one, setting in motion a chain of events that - at a very dire cost - will eventually put Jon in the position to fulfill it (or being part of its fulfillment together with other actors).

[Lyse Stark]

I believe GRRM himself said that Jons character would turn much more grey.

As far as the direction Martin goes, like FF3, I'm comfortable with what he wants to do and am along for the ride.

And while the title of his series could mean many different things from a song/saga/tale/poem of the divergent journeys of two opposite familes, to one with the theme of "balance," I'm on board with the latter as well.

I don't think the Others, or the dragons are "good," or "evil," but a symptom of something that needs to be put right, so Jons function may not actually be to destroy the Others, or control the dragons but to be in synthesis, (the combining of different subsances to form a coherent whole), with them.

If Martin didn't want to highlight the idea of balance or imbalance as is sometimes the primary reason for apocolyptic themes, then he could have written a book about Ice and Lions, Ice and Sun, Sun and Fire, Roses and Weeds, etc.

In most stories with "end-of-world" themes, the notion of imbalance and corruption, (i.e., the Nights Watch, the Kingsguard, the Citadel, the Wall, KL, institutions that might have started out with honor and good intentions but have fallen into decay), are heavily prevalent, waiting on the one leader with the right elements to set things right.

And that person to me seems to be Jon.

On the idea of prophesy, one of Martins other themes/warnings is getting it wrong. The irony is that the prophesy was likely interpreted backwards, because Jon was not necessarily born to fulfill prophesy, but was conditioned to fulfill prophesy through the way he lived his life and his heritage will play a part in that.

If Rhaegar had lived and taken him back to KL and along with his other children, raised him to fulfill prophesy, he probably would not be what he is.

This is why Rhaegar at the TOJ with Lyanna, perhaps living for the first time, and in the process, begetting Jon, did fulfill prophesy, because he wasn't trying.

The last heir, a prince, of a dying House whose life was spared with a promise whose "fire," (fire in many religions and cultures is also a symbol for truth,) is yet to be born.

"Kill the boy, " (a lie), "and let the man," (truth), "be born."

A second birth from "death" that releases him from any of his vows or constraints.

Perhaps while he is asleep, he will dream of the dark bowls of KL, and he will hear the stone dragons beckon him as well as the ashes of the old Targaryen kings, whereas the old kings of Winter in the crypts of Winterfell rejected him for not belonging.

And I think that Rhaegar, in choosing Lyanna, inadvertently fulfilled Maggy the Frog's prophecy to Cersei, and if Cersei poisoned the pie that Joffrey choked on, then she had a hand in it. I also think she will unintentionally kill her remaining children. And after all her power has been taken away, she may burn King's Landing to spite these who in her own demented opinion, took it wrongfully from her but the fact remains is that power was never meant for her.