Jump to content

R + L = J v 70


Stubby

Recommended Posts

And I think that Rhaegar, in choosing Lyanna, inadvertently fulfilled Maggy the Frog's prophecy to Cersei, and if Cersei poisoned the pie that Joffrey choked on, then she had a hand in it. I also think she will unintentionally kill her remaining children. And after all her power has been taken away, she may burn King's Landing to spite these who in her own demented opinion, took it wrongfully from her but the fact remains is that power was never meant for her.

The poison was in the wine, the way we are shown in the Cressen prologue, and Cersei had nothing to do with it. Her part in the potential self-fulfilling prophecy is making Tyrion exactly the monster that she fears, but I don't think that he wil be her valonquar, anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The poison was in the wine, the way we are shown in the Cressen prologue, and Cersei had nothing to do with it. Her part in the potential self-fulfilling prophecy is making Tyrion exactly the monster that she fears, but I don't think that he wil be her valonquar, anyway.

There was a theory that there was two converging poisoning plots at the Purple Wedding and Cersei accidentally poisoned Joffrey. Here's the link; http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/97964-the-purple-wedding-when-plots-collide/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ygritte tells Jon the story means that he has Bael's blood and is therefore one of them, a Wildling, and in the same way although Jon will will have Targaryen blood he will be his mother's son not his father's.

Like someone else mentioned, I

think that you're applying the Bael story/myth too far. There's replicas and approximations, and while Bael and RLJ share some important similarities, the latter isn't a 1:1 redux. Furthermore, the Bael story is more paternally skewed than you seem to say. After all the pathos and drama of the myth centers more around the father (Bael) rather than the nameless Stark girl imo.

That said, in what way will Jon be his mother's son? Sociologically or are you attributing something more metaphysical to this claim? If Northernness, king of winter-hood whatever is derived from Jon's Stark heritage, then he is more of his adopted Stark father's son than his biological Stark mother -- that is, his Stark identity comes from his upbringing at Winterfell and from Ned not Lyanna.

It seems that if you're going to discount the significance of Jon's biological father then logically you must also minimize the significance of Lyanna as well.

In essence, your position Black Crow on the significance of RLJ (or lack thereof) is not much different than Fire Eater's, except your view plays up the Stark background at the expense of the Targaryen factor. I'm not in the camp that thinks Jon is going to be the next king on the IT restoring his father's dynasty. Rather I see Jon caring very much about his Targ lineage. And by caring I mean this truth will impact him perhaps resulting in him forging something new here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There was a theory that there was two converging poisoning plots at the Purple Wedding and Cersei accidentally poisoned Joffrey. Here's the link; http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/97964-the-purple-wedding-when-plots-collide/

This is not the first time I see the theory of the poisoned pie, and I find it no more convincing than the previous ones. Just like all of those before, it totally fails to acknowledge that unless the pie is made from blueberries or something like that, you can't poison it by a purple substance without anyone noticing. That's why the strangler is served in red wine, to conceal the colour. Furthermore, Tyrion gets a slice, not a whole pie, so what happens with the rest? And if it's just his portion that is poisoned, then once again: how? And why bother with poisoning the pie in the first place when there is no certainty that Tyrion will eat it, whereas adding something to his wine is a perfectly safe bet?

Joffrey starting to cough on the pie doesn't mean that the pie is the culprit, he had had a drink before he started eating, and the effect of the strangler is already manifesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see Jon caring very much about his Targ lineage. And by caring I mean this truth will impact him perhaps resulting in him forging something new here.

:agree:

As I suggested earlier, the various influences will combine in synthesis to create something wholly new :)

Eta-- isn't that the way it is with all children? ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I think that Rhaegar, in choosing Lyanna, inadvertently fulfilled Maggy the Frog's prophecy to Cersei, and if Cersei poisoned the pie that Joffrey choked on , then she had a hand in it. I also think she will unintentionally kill her remaining children. And after all her power has been taken away, she may burn King's Landing to spite these who in her own demented opinion, took it wrongfully from her but the fact remains is that power was never meant for her.

The app confirms that the Tyrells have poisoned Joffrey. Cersei had nothing to do with it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The app confirms that the Tyrells have poisoned Joffrey. Cersei had nothing to do with it.

Most happy to hear that :-)

It would be too much to hope that there is the name of the person who improved Joff's wine, right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is not the first time I see the theory of the poisoned pie, and I find it no more convincing than the previous ones. Just like all of those before, it totally fails to acknowledge that unless the pie is made from blueberries or something like that, you can't poison it by a purple substance without anyone noticing. That's why the strangler is served in red wine, to conceal the colour. Furthermore, Tyrion gets a slice, not a whole pie, so what happens with the rest? And if it's just his portion that is poisoned, then once again: how? And why bother with poisoning the pie in the first place when there is no certainty that Tyrion will eat it, whereas adding something to his wine is a perfectly safe bet?

Joffrey starting to cough on the pie doesn't mean that the pie is the culprit, he had had a drink before he started eating, and the effect of the strangler is already manifesting.

If the TV show confirms the theory of the poisoned pie, then it's even more ammunition for it. And the OP has some very good observations. Cersei is abusive and cruel, and she has no concept of personal boundaries. And in abusive families there usually is a atmosphere of denial, and the Lannisters is no exception. Tywin is in denial about his son and daughter being a couple, and he is cruel to Tyrion, but he denies it.

Same with Cersei. She deflects blame for her own action, preferring to blame others. And the plan to accuse Margaery of adultery backfires on her because she doesn't understands how her behaviours affects others.

So in essence I think the Lannisters are the very image of a dysfunctional family; they turn on each other. Each member is constantly trying to manipulate the others, as shown by Tywin, Cersei and Tyrion. It is no surprise to me that Jaime decide he would like to leave the Lannisters behind; he has seen how toxic his family truly is. And Tyrion killed his father because he felt that Tywin's behaviour and ambition was destroying the family unit, and he wants revenge on Cersei.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the TV show confirms the theory of the poisoned pie, then it's even more ammunition for it. And the OP has some very good observations. Cersei is abusive and cruel, and she has no concept of personal boundaries. And in abusive families there usually is a atmosphere of denial, and the Lannisters is no exception. Tywin is in denial about his son and daughter being a couple, and he is cruel to Tyrion, but he denies it.

Same with Cersei. She deflects blame for her own action, preferring to blame others. And the plan to accuse Margaery of adultery backfires on her because she doesn't understands how her behaviours affects others.

So in essence I think the Lannisters are the very image of a dysfunctional family; they turn on each other. Each member is constantly trying to manipulate the others, as shown by Tywin, Cersei and Tyrion. It is no surprise to me that Jaime decide he would like to leave the Lannisters behind; he has seen how toxic his family truly is. And Tyrion killed his father because he felt that Tywin's behaviour and ambition was destroying the family unit, and he wants revenge on Cersei.

Nonsense. The show has deviated substantially from the books and it cannot be used as a basis for analysing the book twists.

While Cersei would be perfectly capable of poisoning Tyrion, she has absolutely no reason to do so at her son's wedding which she has planned to be perfect in every detail. Why spoil all the splendour, and why bother in the first place, when she can access Tyrion at any other time?

And sorry but Tyrion killed Tywin for revenge, for what he had done to Tysha and Tyrion himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't have the app myself, but there are at least 2 threads listing things that are confirmed in the app only. On those threads it states simply "the Tyrells", but I'll ask around for you :)

No need! Here's the quote from the app in its entirety:

"Tyrion is accused of the crime when Joffrey is poisoned and dies on his wedding day. But in truth, Olenna Tyrell -- the Queen of Thorns -- is the guilty party, who poisoned Joffrey with Littlefinger's aid to save her granddaughter, Margaery, from the match."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No need! Here's the quote from the app in its entirety:

"Tyrion is accused of the crime when Joffrey is poisoned and dies on his wedding day. But in truth, Olenna Tyrell -- the Queen of Thorns -- is the guilty party, who poisoned Joffrey with Littlefinger's aid to save her granddaughter, Margaery, from the match."

Ah, you're fast :) I had just posted the question on another thread :D and then I saw your post. Thank you, very kind :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it was Loras but I haven't found the killer evidence yet so I will save my reasoning for another time.

On the ice/fire balance thing I think Jon was very in touch with his fire side in ADWD. I think Val and Mel represent the two sides and while Jon becomes closer to Mel he reacts badly to Val's ice cold reasoning regarding greyscale. Maybe he is vulnerable to his fire side taking over, in his anger blackouts and wanting to fight rather than wait and see, because he doesn't acknowledge that side of himself and just assumes he is the same as Ned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The part in bold reminds me of an old J.K.Rowling's remark:

Instead of taking a life Rhaegar gives one, setting in motion a chain of events that - at a very dire cost - will eventually put Jon in the position to fulfill it (or being part of its fulfillment toge

together with other actors).

Exactly.

One is supposed to LIVE, and let fate do what it will.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I think we might have gotten Jon's birth window a little off, guys. However, I think it's "off" in a good way, because it narrows the window and makes it likelier that Jon was already born by the time the men at the Tower knew that Rhaegar, Aegon and Aerys were dead.



We always say that Jon was born at the time of the Sack up to a month after. This is based on GRRM's assertion that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany. Dany was conceived, though, about two weeks before the Sack, not right at the time of it. So about half a month before the Sack occurred. For Jon to be 8-9 months older than her, accurately, he should be born at the time of the Sack up to about two weeks after, not a full month. I realize that the math is vague and GRRM hates nailing down stuff like this, but it furthers the idea that Jon's birth was probably closer to the time of the Sack than away from it, within the window of possible time.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

'Been thinking along these lines, as well. It depends, though, how precise GRRM is with the pregnancies :-)



BTW, Apple, I've got a little present for you: I was thinking the other day about "fire to love" and "bride of fire", and came to the conclusion that Dany will go Aerys, develop fascination with fire and burn herself :P


Link to comment
Share on other sites

'Been thinking along these lines, as well. It depends, though, how precise GRRM is with the pregnancies :-)

BTW, Apple, I've got a little present for you: I was thinking the other day about "fire to love" and "bride of fire", and came to the conclusion that Dany will go Aerys, develop fascination with fire and burn herself :P

Oh I've thought that for a while. "Fire to love" -> pyromania.

But that's very sweet of you. :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...