R + L = J v 70

[FrozenFire3]

Looking at the general climate lately on these boards, I'm tempted to borrow Jon's word:

Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three.

Yeah, let them ;)

[Fire Eater]

'Been thinking along these lines, as well. It depends, though, how precise GRRM is with the pregnancies :-)

BTW, Apple, I've got a little present for you: I was thinking the other day about "fire to love" and "bride of fire", and came to the conclusion that Dany will go Aerys, develop fascination with fire and burn herself :P

I think "bride of fire" refers to the fire aspect of Dany. While Jon is both fire and ice, Dany is pure fire, and fire destroys and consumes until there is nothing left. "Bride of fire" goes with "child of storm" in that Dany brings fire and destruction wherever she goes.

drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire

I think it refers to several times where Dany has choose between the constructive ice aspect and the destructive fire aspect. In AGoT, Dany isn't content with being a khaleesi, which is a kind of queen in and of itself, but wants to invade Westeros. We see this again in her first chapter in ACoK, where she is tempted to stay in Vaes Tolorro, and tend the gardens and let her dragons grow. At the end of ADwD, she has entirely embraced "fire and blood."

The King's Crown was the Cradle to hear her tell it

the Iron Victory came round the point and entered the holy bay called Nagga's Cradle [for the kingsmoot].

Alysanne and Arianne died still in the cradle

she [Cersei] had drawn a picture of herself flying behind Rhaegar on a dragon, her arms wrapped tight around his chest. When Jaime had discovered it, she told him it was Queen Alysanne and King Jaehaerys.

The first two quotes connect cradles to crowns and monarchs. The third quote is foreshadowing for the deaths of Arianne Martell and Cersei with both of them dying crowned as queens. Let's add one more cradle quote:

Catelyn Tully was a mouse or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle.

Jon as king

[Eira Seren]

'Been thinking along these lines, as well. It depends, though, how precise GRRM is with the pregnancies :-)

BTW, Apple, I've got a little present for you: I was thinking the other day about "fire to love" and "bride of fire", and came to the conclusion that Dany will go Aerys, develop fascination with fire and burn herself :P

Heck, if the first time she did it she got dragons, why not try again!

[Ygrain]

I think "bride of fire" refers to the fire aspect of Dany. While Jon is both fire and ice, Dany is pure fire, and fire destroys and consumes until there is nothing left. "Bride of fire" goes with "child of storm" in that Dany brings fire and destruction wherever she goes.

drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire

I think it refers to several times where Dany has choose between the constructive ice aspect and the destructive fire aspect. In AGoT, Dany isn't content with being a khaleesi, which is a kind of queen in and of itself, but wants to invade Westeros. We see this again in her first chapter in ACoK, where she is tempted to stay in Vaes Tolorro, and tend the gardens and let her dragons grow. At the end of ADwD, she has entirely embraced "fire and blood."

The King's Crown was the Cradle to hear her tell it

the Iron Victory came round the point and entered the holy bay called Nagga's Cradle [for the kingsmoot].

Alysanne and Arianne died still in the cradle

she [Cersei] had drawn a picture of herself flying behind Rhaegar on a dragon, her arms wrapped tight around his chest. When Jaime had discovered it, she told him it was Queen Alysanne and King Jaehaerys.

The first two quotes connect cradles to crowns and monarchs. The third quote is foreshadowing for the deaths of Arianne Martell and Cersei with both of them dying crowned as queens. Let's add one more cradle quote:

Catelyn Tully was a mouse or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle.

Jon as king

Pretty interesting observations.

So, you think that Arianne will be a goner? Damn, them Dornish PoVs never last long, must be the hot climate :D

Heck, if the first time she did it she got dragons, why not try again!

Perhaps she'l hope for a big pink fluffy bunny this time? :D

[Eira Seren]

Pretty interesting observations.

So, you think that Arianne will be a goner? Damn, them Dornish PoVs never last long, must be the hot climate :D

Perhaps she'l hope for a big pink fluffy bunny this time? :D

Undoubtedly! Or a clone of Daario?

Dany is seriously in need of help from Apple Martini. She keeps running around saying things like "Fire cannot kill a dragon," despite all evidence to the contrary. The dragons were a special deal, and now Dany's perception is a bit off.

[finger]

I feel Dany is in desperate need of finding her Drogo reborn, and devote herself to riding her dragon over the Dothraki sea, and her kahl under the stars. Three mounts she'll ride: her silver, her dragon, her kahl. Bugger the IT.

Isn't this a tad off-topic?

[Hoyti_Von_Totiy]

Three mounts she'll ride: her silver, her dragon, her kahl. Bugger the IT.

"three fires must you light... one for life and one for death and one to love...

- fire for life is the fire she burnt Drogo for her dragons birth

- fire for death will be the toarching of Mereen by Drogon

- fire for love .... ? Dunno it says "to love" instead "for love"

three mounts must you ride... one to bed and one to dread and one to love...

- Her horse (that took her to Drogo or bed)

- Her ship (that took her to Slavers bay or dread)

- Her dragon (That takes her to Hot Pie her love)

three treasons will you know... once for blood and once for gold and once for love..."

- Treason for blood is Viserys

- Treason for gold is Jorah (i dont belive his treason was for love as she does)

- Treason for love is still pending. It is clear she will ride the dragon to her love light sime kind of a fire and be betrayed by that person.

[Fire Eater]

Pretty interesting observations.

So, you think that Arianne will be a goner? Damn, them Dornish PoVs never last long, must be the hot climate :D

As Doran noted, with cyvasse like the game of thrones, Arianne knows how to play but not how to win.

In the TWoW Arianne chapter, Arianne proves to not be a too skilled a cyvasse player given she loses both games.

While in the second Dance of Dragons, she will be facing Tyrion, who is a skilled player in cyvasse and the game of thrones, and he will likely mop the floor with her.

"A Snow, no matter what the boy king says."

"Was snow ever so black?" asked Lord Wyman

Jon is called a "boy" throughout ADwD, and he is named "Snow" and took the black. While Lord Wyman's line could, in the right context, be taken as doubts as to whether Jon actually is a Snow. Then there is "boy king," hinting that Jon's actual surname makes him a king.

[Lyse Stark]

As Doran noted, with cyvasse like the game of thrones, Arianne knows how to play but not how to win.

In the TWoW Arianne chapter, Arianne proves to not be a too skilled a cyvasse player given she loses both games.

While in the second Dance of Dragons, she will be facing Tyrion, who is a skilled player in cyvasse and the game of thrones, and he will likely mop the floor with her.

"A Snow, no matter what the boy king says."

"Was snow ever so black?" asked Lord Wyman

Jon is called a "boy" throughout ADwD, and he is named "Snow" and took the black. While Lord Wyman's line could, in the right context, be taken as doubts as to whether Jon actually is a Snow. Then there is "boy king," hinting that Jon's actual surname makes him a king.

And I think that for Jon, becoming a man means he have to wrestle with the doubts he carried with him from childhood, and accepting that his identity is not what it seems to be. The revelation of his true parentage will shatter the central identity of him as Ned Stark's bastard son, and even if he fights to keep it intact, I doubt Bloodraven will let him. And even if Jon wants to stay at the Wall and fade into obscurity, his destiny won't let him do so.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

While Lord Wyman's line could, in the right context, be taken as doubts as to whether Jon actually is a Snow.

I think there is circumstantial evidence that Manderly harbors R+L=J suspicions.

From the KOTLT story: “Under Harren’s roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen.” (ASOS, Bran). At the very least Manderly would’ve gotten a good report about what transpired during Harrenhal, or Manderly himself could’ve been at the tourney.

He was with Ned during the rebellion. (IIRC one of Davos’ goalers got the job because he saved Manderly’s life during the Battle of the Trident.) Due to his position, Manderly would’ve been high in Ned’s councils and would’ve been in a good position to know who Ned was or wasn’t keeping company with.

As Lord of White Harbor, he might have seen or heard about the parties traveling to and from Starfall and Winterfell if a stop in White Harbor was made. Being in charge White Harbor also means being in charge of the gossip center in the North. It's likely he would've heard about the fisherman's daughter story as well as the Ashara Dayne version, and Manderly is smart enough to realize that something isn't quite right with all of those stories.

[Ygrain]

I think there is circumstantial evidence that Manderly harbors R+L=J suspicions.

From the KOTLT story: “Under Harren’s roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen.” (ASOS, Bran). At the very least Manderly would’ve gotten a good report about what transpired during Harrenhal, or Manderly himself could’ve been at the tourney.

He was with Ned during the rebellion. (IIRC one of Davos’ goalers got the job because he saved Manderly’s life during the Battle of the Trident.) Due to his position, Manderly would’ve been high in Ned’s councils and would’ve been in a good position to know who Ned was or wasn’t keeping company with.

As Lord of White Harbor, he might have seen or heard about the parties traveling to and from Starfall and Winterfell if a stop in White Harbor was made. Being in charge White Harbor also means being in charge of the gossip center in the North. It's likely he would've heard about the fisherman's daughter story as well as the Ashara Dayne version, and Manderly is smart enough to realize that something isn't quite right with all of those stories.

That is a valid point. I personally support the idea that Ned's trip to Starfall to return Dawn was just a cover-up and that he sent Jon to the North by ship, probably with HR, and that Ned himself travelled separately, to obscure any connection between the baby, himself and the South. Yet, White Harbor was probably the place where all of them arrived and a possible connection might have been drawn.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That is a valid point. I personally support the idea that Ned's trip to Starfall to return Dawn was just a cover-up and that he sent Jon to the North by ship, probably with HR, and that Ned himself travelled separately, to obscure any connection between the baby, himself and the South. Yet, White Harbor was probably the place where all of them arrived and a possible connection might have been drawn.

I think he would have returned Dawn regardless, but I broadly agree. There was more to the Starfall trip than just returning a sword, even if it was the sword.

[Ygrain]

I think he would have returned Dawn regardless, but I broadly agree. There was more to the Starfall trip than just returning a sword, even if it was the sword.

Let's say that the obligation to return Dawn came veeeery handy :-)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I suggested this in the Kingsguard thread and wanted to see what a less-hostile audience would think.

I'm of the opinion that it's not just Jon's parentage, but his legitimacy, that makes Ned protecting him so important. Think about it: If he is just Rhaegar's bastard, Robert could and maybe would still try to kill him, but he would have no real justification to do so beyond spite and anger. Ned and Arryn might be able to reasonably talk him out of it by saying that hey, Jon's just a bastard, a baby, he poses no threat to you, let him live. The same absolutely cannot be said about Jon if he's legitimate: Robert and especially the Lannisters have substantially more motivation — dynastically justified motivation — to kill Jon. Even if Robert could be convinced, I doubt Tywin could be. Viserys and Dany might be out of reach now, but having Rhaegar's surviving legitimate son on Westerosi soil, and him being half-Stark to boot, in all likelihood would not be tolerated.

That Ned anguishes over his decisions and his promises, and the obviously extremely high price he's paid to keep Jon safe, makes substantially more sense if Jon is legitimate, because it raises the stakes to the level where Ned has absolutely no choice but to do what he's done to hide Jon's identity.

[Ygrain]

I suggested this in the Kingsguard thread and wanted to see what a less-hostile audience would think.

I'm of the opinion that it's not just Jon's parentage, but his legitimacy, that makes Ned protecting him so important. Think about it: If he is just Rhaegar's bastard, Robert could and maybe would still try to kill him, but he would have no real justification to do so beyond spite and anger. Ned and Arryn might be able to reasonably talk him out of it by saying that hey, Jon's just a bastard, a baby, he poses no threat to you, let him live. The same absolutely cannot be said about Jon if he's legitimate: Robert and especially the Lannisters have substantially more motivation — dynastically justified motivation — to kill Jon. Even if Robert could be convinced, I doubt Tywin could be. Viserys and Dany might be out of reach now, but having Rhaegar's surviving legitimate son on Westerosi soil, and him being half-Stark to boot, in all likelihood would not be tolerated.

That Ned anguishes over his decisions and his promises, and the obviously extremely high price he's paid to keep Jon safe, makes substantially more sense if Jon is legitimate, because it raises the stakes to the level where Ned has absolutely no choice but to do what he's done to hide Jon's identity.

Great minds think alike - I made the same point recently, though I really don't remember which thread it was. If Jon's just a bastard, they can try and parley with Ned, ask him to take the baby under his protection. If Jon is legit, then there is nothing to parley about, no middle ground to be found.

[The guy from the Vale]

I agree with you, Ygrain. If Jon had been a bastard, they would have accepted Ned's offer to go to Dragonstone while asking him to protect the king's baseborn nephew. It's Jon being legitimate that makes any compromise at the ToJ impossible.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I agree with you, Ygrain. If Jon had been a bastard, they would have accepted Ned's offer to go to Dragonstone while asking him to protect the king's baseborn nephew. It's Jon being legitimate that makes any compromise at the ToJ impossible.

I also agree with this. The fight at the Tower wasn't "just" protecting Jon from Ned harming him physically. I think it was also a last-ditch way to protect Jon's birthright, which Ned would have deprived and ultimately did deprive him of.

[Lyse Stark]

I suggested this in the Kingsguard thread and wanted to see what a less-hostile audience would think.

I'm of the opinion that it's not just Jon's parentage, but his legitimacy, that makes Ned protecting him so important. Think about it: If he is just Rhaegar's bastard, Robert could and maybe would still try to kill him, but he would have no real justification to do so beyond spite and anger. Ned and Arryn might be able to reasonably talk him out of it by saying that hey, Jon's just a bastard, a baby, he poses no threat to you, let him live. The same absolutely cannot be said about Jon if he's legitimate: Robert and especially the Lannisters have substantially more motivation dynastically justified motivation to kill Jon. Even if Robert could be convinced, I doubt Tywin could be. Viserys and Dany might be out of reach now, but having Rhaegar's surviving legitimate son on Westerosi soil, and him being half-Stark to boot, in all likelihood would not be tolerated.

That Ned anguishes over his decisions and his promises, and the obviously extremely high price he's paid to keep Jon safe, makes substantially more sense if Jon is legitimate, because it raises the stakes to the level where Ned has absolutely no choice but to do what he's done to hide Jon's identity.

And the fact that Ned has forced the life of a bastard on Jon, if he is trueborn, speaks to how much he loved Lyanna so much that he would hide Rhaegar and her's son in plain sight. It was the only way Jon could live, and Ned intended it that way for him for the rest of his life. The Night's Watch's vows also kept his true claim from resurfacing, but even I think the Kingsguard, if they had seen Jon there they would still be duty-bound to him.

[Fire Eater]

I agree with you Apple, theguyfromthevale and Ygrain.

If Jon was a bastard, Ned would have had little and less reason to lie as Jon would have been dead last in the line of succession as a Targaryen bastard coming even after Robert and his family in succession. Jon would have posed little to no threat to Robert as the Targaryen heir would have been Viserys, and after him Dany, so Robert's attentions would still be fixed on them. Jon would have been of little use to either side, as Jon would have been a poor hostage to use against Viserys and Dany if they tried to invade, and Jon's only potential base of support in aiding the Targaryens would have been WF, and Ned wouldn't side against Robert as Robert himself knew.

Besides, Ned would be the one raising him, and Jon would more likely to side with the family who raised him compared to the Targaryens.

If Jon was legitimate then Ned had a reason not to tell Cat. What he was doing was treason, and being found out would mean losing his head while if Cat was in on it then she could be charged with treason as well.

Finally, Jon being a Targaryen bastard instead of a Stark bastard doesn't change things a lot as that would still make Dany and after her, Stannis, the rightful Targaryen heir. Jon being a legitimate Targaryen does change things a lot since it makes him the rightful Targaryen heir instead of Dany, and provides a much bigger impact on the story on a political scale.

I think Dany will be undefeated in war, and vanquishes the other contenders who come out to face her. The final king she comes upon, Jon, will conquer and subdue her not through swords or force like the other kings like Aegon and Stannis do, but through the laws of succession that Dany is using. Her greatest tool for her claim, other than her dragons, is used against her.

[FrozenFire3]

I suggested this in the Kingsguard thread and wanted to see what a less-hostile audience would think.

I'm of the opinion that it's not just Jon's parentage, but his legitimacy, that makes Ned protecting him so important. Think about it: If he is just Rhaegar's bastard, Robert could and maybe would still try to kill him, but he would have no real justification to do so beyond spite and anger. Ned and Arryn might be able to reasonably talk him out of it by saying that hey, Jon's just a bastard, a baby, he poses no threat to you, let him live. The same absolutely cannot be said about Jon if he's legitimate: Robert and especially the Lannisters have substantially more motivation — dynastically justified motivation — to kill Jon. Even if Robert could be convinced, I doubt Tywin could be. Viserys and Dany might be out of reach now, but having Rhaegar's surviving legitimate son on Westerosi soil, and him being half-Stark to boot, in all likelihood would not be tolerated.

That Ned anguishes over his decisions and his promises, and the obviously extremely high price he's paid to keep Jon safe, makes substantially more sense if Jon is legitimate, because it raises the stakes to the level where Ned has absolutely no choice but to do what he's done to hide Jon's identity.

Great minds think alike - I made the same point recently, though I really don't remember which thread it was. If Jon's just a bastard, they can try and parley with Ned, ask him to take the baby under his protection. If Jon is legit, then there is nothing to parley about, no middle ground to be found.

I agree with you, Ygrain. If Jon had been a bastard, they would have accepted Ned's offer to go to Dragonstone while asking him to protect the king's baseborn nephew. It's Jon being legitimate that makes any compromise at the ToJ impossible.

Perfectly reasoned. In hiding a legitimate Jon from Robert, Ned is not only betraying his friend, he is betraying his friend and king to whom he is sworn. He is committing high treason, not only a personal betrayal. Bastard/betrayal vs legitimate/treason. Quite a tragic burden...

ETA Fire Eater's post about Ned'd moral obligation to protect Cat by not sharing the truth is another very valid and insightful point.