R + L = J v 70

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Did BC say that?

Yup. Everything in " " is a direct quote.

[J. Stargaryen]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/101915-heresy-86/

It's obvious he has a problem with RLJ, you can tell by the (very brave) hit & run trolling.

Oh my.

None of those ideas were exactly new at the time, however Heresy pulled them together and this continues to be the case. What still makes Heresy so different and more vibrant and exciting than other threads is that while the theories discussed here have evolved and are often fiercely debated, in general we take a holistic approach. Rather than concentrate on a single issue in relative isolation, as do worshippers at the Church of R+L=J for example, we, as Heretics, enjoy a free-wheeling discussion ranging over a variety of issues. While for our part we certainly look at the white walkers in greater detail than on any other thread, we also look beyond to see how they relate, or might relate, to other aspects of the story. In short this thread is about the Song of Ice and Fire rather than any one facet of it.

Lol. Insecure much?

Btw, that last sentence is curious, considering his take on R+L=J. Hey you guys, this is the Song if Ice and Fire, but mostly Ice. Definitely mostly Ice.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Quel propaganda. :lol:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Oh my.

Lol. Insecure much?

Btw, that last sentence is curious, considering his take on R+L=J. Hey you guys, this is the Song if Ice and Fire, but mostly Ice. Definitely mostly Ice.

Exactly my point about ignoring half the "song"! Fail to see how that is being done in "reference to the text" It's in the darn title.

[UVA]

You said it better than I did! Thank you. There is also the fact that Cat has made repeated questionable judgements during the series, I mean yeah she was right not to trust Theon but when you count the number of blunders she made...come on!

This is not the thread for a Cat discussion, but Ned not telling Cat was not because she was an incompetent or inappropriately anxious and or fearful as you seem to suggest.

/checks the title of the thread/

Funny, I've always thought of him as the son of Rhaegar AND Lyanna

Yea, I thought so too. That's what it heavily points to in the books, right? This "heresy" premise undermines Martin's narrative and ignores huge chunks of symbolism.

Oh my.

Lol. Insecure much?

Btw, that last sentence is curious, considering his take on R+L=J. Hey you guys, this is the Song if Ice and Fire, but mostly Ice. Definitely mostly Ice.

Unfortunately (one of) BC's problem(s) is the total failure in making a convincing case that Lyanna as Jon's mother is vastly more significant than any Targaryen background and that this view is more aligned with Martin's intent and where he's actually going with Jon's arc. If the argument that Jon's story is fundamentally Northern-centric/Old Gods then BC should establish an explicit chain of reasoning so that it can be picked apart. But this suggestive nonsense about the alleged primacy of Lyanna, as near as I can tell, is just another way of alluding to an argument without actually making one.

[Lyse Stark]

the YIN

Moon

Winter

Cold

Feminine

Wolf

Ice

Constructive

The Smith

the YANG

Sun

Summer

Heat

Masculine

Dragon

Fire

Destructive

The Warrior

The poster who said that the blue rose is Alys Karstark is forgetting this point; Jon is a Yin-Yang of opposing forces, and for him to achieve his destiny, he have to balance both halves. And he is utterly wrong; it is not Alys who is transforming; it is Jon. Enuff said.

[Alia of the knife]

the YIN

Moon

Winter

Cold

Feminine

Wolf

Ice

Constructive

The Smith

the YANG

Sun

Summer

Heat

Masculine

Dragon

Fire

Destructive

The Warrior

The poster who said that the blue rose is Alys Karstark is forgetting this point; Jon is a Yin-Yang of opposing forces, and for him to achieve his destiny, he have to balance both halves. And he is utterly wrong; it is not Alys who is transforming; it is Jon. Enuff said.

Agreed.

And like a scene from "The Shining," he is going to transform, and go Jack Nicholson on the Freys and the Boltens.

"Heeerres Jonny...."

[Wolfking007]

The poster who said that the blue rose is Alys Karstark is forgetting this point; Jon is a Yin-Yang of opposing forces, and for him to achieve his destiny, he have to balance both halves. And he is utterly wrong; it is not Alys who is transforming; it is Jon. Enuff said.

I belive that the guy who is posting that theory is Fred of Ashai, basing his theory on Bael the bard story. The theory doesn't make anya sense but he is persistant to prove that he is right.

[Lyse Stark]

I belive that the guy who is posting that theory is Fred of Ashai, basing his theory on Bael the bard story. The theory doesn't make anya sense but he is persistant to prove that he is right.

And he will be eventually proved wrong. :rolleyes:

[J. Stargaryen]

And he will be eventually proved wrong. :rolleyes:

Does it really need to be proven wrong if it can't even get off the ground? Meh.

[Ser Creighton]

Agreed.

And like a scene from "The Shining," he is going to transform, and go Jack Nicholson on the Freys and the Boltens.

"Heeerres Jonny...."

Hahaha, well sort of. Jon would not be the mountain in the Yin Yang concept, rather he would be the sun or the light, which would also create shadow. Both need to exist, Westeros would be the mountain. If you adhere to it only being Jon. In your scenario there might be a tad extra shadow. Though it is a cycle. The tree is also another strong symbol of the concept, the roots in the darkness and the leaves in the light. Bloodravens comments on embracing the darkness are near word for word on the concept of the daoist Yin.

But it's a cycle, the sun moves and the shadows shift. The wall is also a good example of this the north side faces the darkness or cold (Others) the south the light or Warmth.

I would suggest Jon is part of a cycle, given the blue star, I would suggest Jon's cycle is entering the Yin part of his cycle. If you are applying the concept. Though to fulfill it I would also suggest he needs the red star as well, or the metaphorical red star. Though I would think he would be in Yin for a bit first, then Yang, then balance.

Outside concept Jon has one burnt hand, could he also gain one frozen hand as well? Or frost bitten hand?

[Ghost's Shadow]

Make him a mutant while you're at it.

[Ser Creighton]

Make him a mutant while you're at it.

Targ woman have been known to have still borns with scaly babies with wings and tails. That would fit under mutation would it not? And Jon has the psychic ability to warg his mind into animals. He is practically an X-Man, all he would need is some super hero time name like Mason Storm, Clark Kent or Jon... oh well ummm soooo. Ok so super powers, comes from a family with genetic mutations and has a Super hero name. Well as least he doesn't have any cool symbol, like a white Dire Wolf or and Black raven. Ok, ok, so he at least he is not part of some organization like the Avengers that have some sort save the world motto or oath. He is just a member of the Night's Watch, the black brothers, who are organized to defend the world from the Cold and cruel ice people, and he has magic powers, and a sigil, and a super hero name. But don't worry I won't make him to much like a comic book character by giving him frost bite on his other hand.

ETA. Sorry almost forgot he also has a mysterious past and a secret identity. Oh and was born from tragedy which is classic super hero origin. Ok but that's it, outside of that no super hero stuff, outside of his magic spell forged sword long claw. Ok that's it though, the comic angle is over, except for his sidekick Sam. Ok now I am done, that's all I can think of right now.