Jump to content

R + L = J v 70


Stubby

Recommended Posts

There is also the option that Jon will become the king but will not sit the throne - he will do the ultimate sacrifice to release the power in royal blood, instead of Nissa Nissa.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I generally believe this theory to be correct, I don't think it means he's going to become King (and no offense to Dany/Jon shippers--but I don't see that happening). I always took it that if Jon were supposed to be King by accordance to bloodline--how genre defying would it be that the person who's supposed to be King not only doesn't want it, but chooses to abandon such notions of ever taking it up?

Others before have mentioned the parallels to the in-world Old Nan tale of the last time a Stark daughter had been kidnapped for a year--and if anything I see that as a potential set up for what we should expect to be coming, something truly tragic. I could easily see that being turned into a number of possibilities...

I also like how in that tale the mother's blood ended up being more important than the father's. Too often when I read supporters of this theory elsewhere (though sometimes here as well) the overemphasis of him being "Rhaegar's son" is played up to the point where I nearly want to start disavowing the theory completely. Personally I like the idea that it would be Lyanna's blood ending up being the more important of the two, that Jon associates and more importantly identifies more as a Stark than as a Targ.

Honestly I fail to register this supposed "Rhaegar's son" overemphasis. Sadly, it's the other way round. We deal on a daily basis with a sort of widespread, irrational dislike (euphemism intended) towards Rhaegar and his (guessed) arc that has repercussions on the ability to approach the whole R+L=J discussion with the instruments of a reliable textual analysis.

Not to mention the emotional investment in what is only a work of fiction, telling a compelling but still a fictional story and featuring fictitious characters... Moral tribunals/inquisition threads are something that equally amuse and scare me. All I ask the characters is to challenge, intrigue, interest me. All I ask the story is to have a strong dramatic potential. I leave nasty feelings to RL.

Regulars on this thread have always tried to approach the subject rationally, with an in-depth textual and meta-textual research, without letting our personal expectations or preferences take us (too much lol) astray. I for one don't know where GRRM is going with Jon's arc and onestly I don't really care, as I completely trust in his mastery of the art of 'word-weaving'. I can only analyse what's on text with the help of a bit of comparative literature, and enjoy the treasure hunt throughout the extremely complex, layered text.

To the point, I tend to agree with Fire Eater. It doesn't have sense, from a mere narrative point of view, to build up such a plot twist without a due dramatic payback. Why creating such a Targ-Stark ancestry if not to aim at certain narrative goals? Why mentioning Rhaegar more than 200 times if his blood is not so relevant to Jon's arc? Why clashing, melting and reforging (physically and thematically) ice and fire if not to reach a sort of synthesis? If only Jon's Stark heritage was important, there wouldn't be any need for him to be son of Lyanna. He could have well stayed Ned's bastard and fullfil his Ice Wolf destiny. But the beast is 50-50 wolf and dragon. The ice and fire aspects fight and merge in Jon's persona like passionate lovers with endless potential for tragic/dramatic/narrative story developments.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

“I have a name, Your Grace.”


“Snow. Was ever a name more ill-omened?” Stannis touched his sword hilt. “Just who do you imagine that you are?”


“The watcher on the walls. The sword in the darkness.”



“Lord Snow,” Maester Aemon called out, “I left a book for you in my chambers. The Jade Compendium. It was written by the Volantene adventurer Colloquo Votar, who traveled to the east and visited all the lands of the Jade Sea. There is a passage you may find of interest. I’ve told Clydas to mark it for you.”


“I’ll be sure to read it.”


Maester Aemon wiped his nose. “Knowledge is a weapon, Jon. Arm yourself well before you ride forth to battle.”


“I will.” Jon felt something wet and cold upon his face. When he raised his eyes, he saw that it was snowing. A bad omen.



Jon was referring to Stannis when he defined snow as a bad omen. The snow on his face is his fake identity as a Snow. It was wet and melting. Hence, Jon's fake identity is melting all through the ADwD.



There is a curious thing.



The second wayn would carry their clothing and possessions, along with a chest of rare old books that Aemon thought the Citadel might lack. Sam had spent half the night searching for them, though he’d found only one in four.



Aemon left the Jade Compendium which includes the Lightbringer legend. Among the books Sam searched and found, Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons by Thomax was mentioned (and dropped to the mud by Sam). There is no mention of this book later so did Aemon take it to Citadel or leave it to Jon too? In ADwD, while Tyrion was writing all he knew about the dragons in Shy Maid, he counted the book of Thomax too. So he read this book either at the Citadel or at the CR (or KL). Regardless of what, this book does not appear as extremely rare. So Aemon should know that the Citadel has this book and there is no need to take it there.



Aemon had Sam searched this book along with the ones he meant to take to the Citadel and Jade Compendium which he left for Jon. But why did Aemon summon this book? Did he have a dragondream and want to collect all the dragonlore like Tyrion? If so, he may have lied about the books Citadel lacking.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aemon left the Jade Compendium which includes the Lightbringer legend. Among the books Sam searched and found, Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons by Thomax was mentioned (and dropped to the mud by Sam). There is no mention of this book later so did Aemon take it to Citadel or leave it to Jon too? In ADwD, while Tyrion was writing all he knew about the dragons in Shy Maid, he counted the book of Thomax too. So he read this book either at the Citadel or at the CR (or KL). Regardless of what, this book does not appear as extremely rare. So Aemon should know that the Citadel has this book and there is no need to take it there.

Aemon had Sam searched this book along with the ones he meant to take to the Citadel and Jade Compendium which he left for Jon. But why did Aemon summon this book? Did he have a dragondream and want to collect all the dragonlore like Tyrion? If so, he may have lied about the books Citadel lacking.

The book from the Wall and the book Tyrion refers to are two different books, per this SSM.

Whether the book Sam found was left behind or is one of those books now in the possession Quhuru Mo, I think there is great significance in the title and therefore in its contents. I've no doubt either Jon and Sam (imho, Sam at the Citadel) will find much of interest in its pages.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The book from the Wall and the book Tyrion refers to are two different books, per this SSM.

Whether the book Sam found was left behind or is one of those books now in the possession Quhuru Mo, I think there is great significance in the title and therefore in its contents. I've no doubt either Jon and Sam (imho, Sam at the Citadel) will find much of interest in its pages.

Thanks, never saw that before. There is a problem though. The question is not asked well.

The fan asks whether the Dragonkin of Thomax is the same as the legandary Death of Dragons and GRRM says no. What the fan did not ask is whether the Dragonkin is the same book Tyrion reflected about the mating habits of the dragons.

When the Halfmaester appeared on deck, yawning, the dwarf was writing down what he recalled concerning the mating habits of dragons, on which subject Barth, Munkun, and Thomax held markedly divergent views.

Among these books, Barth's book have some fragments reamining which Tyrion read. I suspect the Citadel has the full version of Barth's book hidden in a vault. Munkun's book is very common. For me Thomax's book also must be common. So, if Aemon is telling the truth about taking some books which the citadel might lack (well he was like 60 years absent there), then Dragonkin should not be among them. We also know that Aemon heard the news of Dany and her dragons after he left the CB. Or did he have a dragondream and wanted to collect all the dragonlore?

ETA: I hope I made clear what I mean. By the way Barth's book was very true so it was banned. Munkun's book have some serious errors. Since Thomax had different views than Barth, his book must also contain some errors. That makes this book harmless and distributable for the Citadel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think I see what you mean... the SSM questioner may have inadvertently been asking if Barth and Thomax were one and the same?



Still, I don't see any reason to assume the Thomax book was common. It could be rare without being unique, and since the illustrations are mentioned it could just as well be a situation similar to Kaeth's "Lives of Four Kings" where only four copies (now three, thanks Joffrey :lol: ) illuminated in his own hand were known to exist. I think it's much more likely it is a rare book, although I agree that Aemon probably wanted it to be read by someone and that it will indeed have a plot significance in the future. It seems more likely to me that it would end up where Sam could read it, since he's the one who's been shown to have an interest in reading history. Jon sadly does not, since as far as we know he has so far failed to look at the Jade Compendium, which most likely also has some pretty significant details within it s pages.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think I see what you mean... the SSM questioner may have inadvertently been asking if Barth and Thomax were one and the same?

Still, I don't see any reason to assume the Thomax book was common. It could be rare without being unique, and since the illustrations are mentioned it could just as well be a situation similar to Kaeth's "Lives of Four Kings" where only four copies (now three, thanks Joffrey :lol: ) illuminated in his own hand were known to exist. I think it's much more likely it is a rare book, although I agree that Aemon probably wanted it to be read by someone and that it will indeed have a plot significance in the future. It seems more likely to me that it would end up where Sam could read it, since he's the one who's been shown to have an interest in reading history. Jon sadly does not, since as far as we know he has so far failed to look at the Jade Compendium, which most likely also has some pretty significant details within it s pages.

So far... Maybe some peculiar in-between vision will compel him to have a careful look ;)

One way or another, the Dragonkin text that Sam drops and come open as it falls is one of the many dragon related symbolisms scattered throughout Jon's story arc. And don't even get me started on the muddy pages of the dragon book and the infamous allegory of the Mudd King lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm right in thinking he did read that passage, yes? (Been a while...)



Speaking of 'in-between visions', that vision that Jon had, did he not find it odd at all that he was standing on top of the Wall, fighting Wightified people with a burning sword in his hand, you know, the thing they're looking for (whether the sword was metaphorical or actual, he did hold it).



What does that show, if he didn't? Did he 'forget'? (If I'm not mistaken Bloodraven pulls him out of that dream so he can let the Wildlings in?) Or is he just ignoring things because the Wights developed the faces of his family and so he ignores it? Or did Martin not want to put too much emphasis on it yet? :dunno:


Link to comment
Share on other sites

So far... Maybe some peculiar in-between vision will compel him to have a careful look ;)

One way or another, the Dragonkin text that Sam drops and come open as it falls is one of the many dragon related symbolisms scattered throughout Jon's story arc. And don't even get me started on the muddy pages of the dragon book and the infamous allegory of the Mudd King lol

I agree with your assessment :)

Oh... Is there a connection between Mudd and dragons? :rolleyes:

Do tell! ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with your assessment :)

Oh... Is there a connection between Mudd and dragons? :rolleyes:

Do tell! ;)

Well, we know the colour of Nettles' dragon was an ugly mud(d) brown and considering her ties to Daemon Targaryen, direct ancestor of Jon... or were you talking about some less muddy Mudd dragon reference??? :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, we know the colour of Nettles' dragon was an ugly mud(d) brown and considering her ties to Daemon Targaryen, direct ancestor of Jon... or were you talking about some less muddy Mudd dragon reference??? :lol:

I was thinking of the less muddy, and the more Mudd-y ;)

...but that's a good one :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites





Yup, that and more. If we're really nice perhaps FF3 will link the past analysis of good old Tristifer's grave :)






Will I now? :P Sorry Paper Waver, Lady G and I were (are still?) in a 'playfool' mood (pun fully intended). So here is the infamous analysis and a little addendum here (just scroll down the post).





Sorry to interrupt a serious debate, I just can't...


:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:





:lol: Very serious indeed. Poor Sean Bean, casting him is intrinsically a spoiler LOL


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will I now? :P Sorry Paper Waver, Lady G and I were (are still?) in a 'playfool' mood (pun fully intended). So here is the infamous analysis and a little addendum here (just scroll down the post).

:lol: Very serious indeed. Poor Sean Bean, casting him is intrinsically a spoiler LOL

Lol Sean Bean may be handsome but he has absolutely nothing on Kit Harington or Orlando Bloom!

And in my head, book! Jon trumps show!Jon!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...